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In Reply to: RE: You won't accept evidence that contradicts your preconceived notion posted by geoffkait on November 17, 2022 at 02:45:51
Normally, if one proposes something "new to science" it is the duty of those proposing to show proof it exists. As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
That there is a directional effect in speaker cables is such a claim but lacks anything like "engineering proof" that you can point to other than some people say they can hear it.
Some people say a lot of things, here, most likely "if you can't hear it, your system doesn't have enough resolution" or other cop out.
Meanwhile the fact it is only folks associated with the audio aftermarket biz that seem to promote this idea, that there is no attempt to show and engineering explanation, leaves many rightfully skeptical and some going to great lengths to promote it.
Follow Ups:
I'm not proposing something new to science, as you say. Whatever gave you that idea? Do you consider yourself informed of everything in science, is the real question. I'm beginning to think so.I am under no obligation to present engineering proof, as you say, or proof of any kind or even evidence. This is not a peer review forum, in case you haven't heard.
By the way, I never said directionality is real because some people claim to hear it. Why do you insist on putting words in my mouth? (You are very adept at using pseudo skeptic arguments.)
Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless. Even if the test is a controlled blind test. Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key.
You keep trying to argue that only niche audiophiles are concerned about directionality. That's true but it doesn't mean it's not real. You can follow that logic, right? That's another pseudo skeptic argument.
Edits: 11/17/22 11/17/22
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
And you have that data? Can you share it?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
It's not up to me to provide any data. If you had read more carefully you'd have noticed I said tests by many people on many systems. I.e., independent testing. You probably aren't familiar with IV&V, I bet.
Edits: 12/19/22
"Because systems can sometimes have errors and peoples' listening skills are often unreliable, negative results of a test for directionality are meaningless."
It is the exact same reason to be skeptical of positive results, or if you really believe in cable directionality, the ability of a manufacturer to deliver the products to the customer consistently without any case of somehow confusing the customer into installing them backwards.... mislabelled cable direction indicator per manufacturing defect as an example.
"Meaningful results start to emerge after many tests on many systems with many test subjects. Repeatability and transferability are the key."
There seems to be some logical flaw in the following line of reasoning: "listening skills are often unreliable", and yet the proposed method of detecting the effect, ie (paraphrasing) "just listen myself and see if I like one direction better than the other".
There are at least two conductors per interconnect per channel. However the only thing most of us would consider practical is multistrand not solid core. That is a ton of book keeping just to get one cable built correctly with out any mistakes. It's hard to imagine how all this overhead wouldn't be prohibitively expensive for a boutique audiophile manufacturer to control. And really begs the question why bother doing the listening test on any old manufacturers multistrand cables with presumably random distributions of strands within the multistrand bundles pointing in one direction or the other.
No, positive results are not the same as negative results. Negative results from a single test have no meaning. That's because too many things can and do go wrong with tests. But positive results are meaningful because they were positive *in spite of* the many possible pitfalls.What are those pitfalls, you ask. Fair enough, here is a short list,
1. Error(s) in the test system, including but not limited to, speakers wired out of phase, cabling connected out of phase, absolute polarity of system inverted, cables or electronics not broken in sufficiently. These error would potentially mask differences in sound.
2. Test system lacks adequate resolution for task at hand, making the sound differences impossible to detect.
3. Listener not sufficiently skilled at detecting differences in sound.
4. Listener doesn't know what differences in the sound to look for. What difference in sound does directionality produce?
5. Test procedures not followed.
6. Listener might be biased against the test item(s). He could be strongly anti tweak and nit admit to any Sonic differences if there are any.
One person's listening skill might not be up to the level of someone else's. If you don't know what directionality sounds like you might not hear it the first time around. That's what I meant by listener skill being unreliable. You can't drag some guy in off the street and expect him to hear directionality.
It's not difficult to control any wire or cable for directionality. You must "control" the wire as soon as it comes off the spool, every length of wire after that is in the direction. AudioQuest (and others) has been doing this for many years uh, 25, so obviously it's not prohibitively expensive, as you say.
For fuses, the wire doesn't have to be controlled during manufacture since it's easy to reverse the fuse in its holder and decide which way sounds best.
Finally, in an AC circuit there are two wires, one carries the electrical signal in one direction while the electrical signal travel in the opposite direction at the same time. The signals alternate direction on each wire according to the instantaneous audio frequency.
Edits: 11/19/22 11/20/22 11/20/22
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