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In Reply to: RE: TG Audio speaker cables and directionality posted by geoffkait on May 17, 2022 at 13:41:58
Makes a lot of sense, Geoff.
Andy
Follow Ups:
It almost makes sense. Here are what I think the problems with his theory is.
The two wires of each speaker cables are not signal and return wires. The two + and - wires are both signal and return. Remember the cables are part of an AC circuit, it's the alternating current that makes the speaker diaphragms move back and forth.
So, each wire in the cable provides one half of the entire audio wavelength. But it provides the signal only when the current is traveling in the direction of the speaker. You can ignore the signal when it's traveling in the opposite direction away from the speaker. So, it's this push pull action of the alternating current (moving charges, the electrons) that produces the acoustic audio waveform out into in the room.
Therefore thr best way to control directionality is to ensure that BOTH + and - wires are oriented so that the best direction is toward the speakers. Not as Bob Crump suggested, to have them opposite in direction. Both + and - wires are equal, not as Bob said, which is one is signal and one is return. They are both signal and return.
Any questions?
"They are both signal and return."
Yes they are, so why do you keep saying things like...
"But it provides the signal only when the current is traveling in the direction of the speaker. You can ignore the signal when it's traveling in the opposite direction away from the speaker"
Both wires are equally important at all times. What happens in either wire will equally affect what is coming out of the speaker at all times.
There seems to be a large hole in your understanding of audio electronics that causes you to say some very weird things at times.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
I say that because it's true. You can ignore the electrons/current/signal when it is traveling in the opposite direction, i.e., the direction away from the speakers. The "signal" on both wires + and - traveling toward the speakers - is the one that makes the speaker diaphragms move out and in. That's why wire is *always* "directional" AC circuits. That's why Bob Crump was incorrect how he constructed his cables, how he thought directionality worked. At least he tried.The physical asymmetry of the conductor metal is what makes the wire/cable sound better, less distorted in one direction vs the other direction. One assumes the drift electrons have a more rigorous route to travel in the "bad" direction.
Please stop repeating the same old audiophile lie, "AC cables can't be directional because the current travels in both directions."
Edits: 08/13/22 08/13/22 08/13/22
"The "signal" on both wires + and - traveling toward the speakers - is the one that makes the speaker diaphragms move out and in."
The alternating current flowing towards the speaker in one wire and away from the speaker in the other wire is what makes the diaphragm move out and in. It is really the alternating current that is flowing in the voice coil that makes the diaphragm move out and in (and the fact that that VC is sitting in a magnetic field and the current flowing in the VC is creating a field as well) but that can't happen unless the current flows through both wires to get to and from the VC.
I think you are hung up on semantics.
"The "signal" on both wires + and - traveling toward the speakers" That is one way to look at/talk about it. Don't get hung up thinking that that is something new or a new understanding. It's not. It's just a new way to talk about it.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
No, you're incorrect. And don't put words in my mouth. This is not semantics. Put your listening ears on.It's the moving electric field interacting with the permanent magnet that makes the speaker diaphragms move in and out. The E field that moves toward the speaker on each wire + and -. The electric field moving toward the speaker on wire + makes the diaphragm move out, the electric field moving toward the speaker on wire - makes the diaphragm move in. Each wire Carrie's half the complete audio waveform. That's why both wires + and - need to be controlled for directionality by ensuring their "best direction" is toward the speaker. Not as Bob Crump described. This is also why fuses have their best orientation such that the best direction is *toward the speakers* on whichever wire it's attached to. "Current toward speakers." Follow?
Edits: 08/13/22
Each wire carries the complete audio waveform.The voice coil is one wire. Did you even think about that?
Read a book.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 08/13/22
Tre'
This guy is a master troll. You gotta ignore him.
Dave.
Master troll? No way! Maybe master debater.
This particular conversation can serve no purpose any more. Ta ta
If as you say, Geoff, the electrical signal going down the wires is AC ... so the current actually reverses - then I agree with your last paragraph.
However, yes I believe that - since the music signal is AC - the voltage at the +ve spkr terminal keeps changing from +ve to -ve and back to +ve ... but I can't make the mental jump to believing that this causes the current to change direction.
Andy
The current and voltage are both calculated OR measured numbers. They don't reverse direction since they are scalar quantities. Think of the two wires + and - like man and woman. You can't get a baby without both man and woman, right, they both carry different but complementary parts of the baby's DNA. Same with the two wires in the AC circuit, they each provide exactly half of the audio waveform as alternating electric field.
The trick is seeing that the "electrical signal" IS the "music signal." Actually I should say it's the alternating electric field e part of the "electrical signal" that interacts with the permanent magnet on the speaker diaphragm, thus producing the entire waveform - each wire + and - transmits half the waveform as *alternating electric fields*. There are also alternating magnetic fields m. These fields e and m are produced by the moving charges (electrons) that wiggle to and fro on the + and - wires. One wire handles the push, while the other handles the pull. If you accidentally reverse + and - wires on the speaker terminals you will reverse polarity of that speaker.The voltage is also a calculated number and has no direction, it's also a scalar quantity, like current. Neither one is a vector.
The amount of current - which is a calculated number - is a function of how many electrons can travel x distance so obviously thicker wire can support higher currents. It's a little misleading to call the speaker cable or any circuit AC since current is a calculated number, current doesn't alternate, it has no direction. It should be called alternating electron circuit. I have refrained from getting into power density and Poynting vectors as that unnecessarily complicates things. Although the e and m fields are associated with the Poynting vector.
So, it takes both wires + and minus to make the system work, they are not a signal wire and a return wire as Bob Crump stated. There is no "audio signal" or "music signal" other than the e field part of the electromagnetic wave. The speaker cable is acting like a push-pull force that moves the speaker diaphragm in and out according to the "audio waveform" generate by the amps.
This description of how the "audio signal" is transmitted over speaker cables implies that for best results orient both wires such that their best sounding direction is toward the speakers. You can forget about the electrons traveling in the opposite direction. But you don't have the two wires oriented opposite to each other as Bob indicated. That defeats the purpose of controlling directionality of the wire off the big spool.
Edits: 05/19/22 05/19/22 05/19/22
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