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In Reply to: RE: Then you're not TRICKLE charging anything, are you? posted by Chris Garrett on December 04, 2015 at 14:56:11
What was wrong in my statement "- there is absolutely no problem & nothing wrong with trickle charging a LiFePO4 battery - all LiFePO4 battery chargers are just trickle charging in their final stage of charging i.e they are behaving as a regulated voltage source except they are outputting 3.6V."OK, I thought you understood what my configuration was - I've stated it so often now: permanently connect a 3.3V regulated PS to a 3.3V LiFePO4 battery & use it to power the Regen USB hub chip & USB clock (both of which are 3.3V devices)
I used the term "trickle" charging to explain how the battery is maintained at a constant 3.3V.
I really don't understand your use of automatic & trickle - a PS cannot put any more current into a battery that is at the same voltage as the PS?
All the advice to Lance to use a battery charger to "trickle" charge the battery is WRONG as it will have a 3.65V regulated voltage output which will be detrimental to, if not kill the USB hub chip &/or USB clock.
Please don't advise him to do so - it will probably damage his Regen.
Edits: 12/04/15Follow Ups:
WOW!
This ain't good. So, are you telling me that I should absolutely NOT charge my LiFePo4 batteries with the D4 LiFePo4 26650 specific battery charger and keep this charger connected to these batteries as they are then connected to my REGEN? This will potentially damage my REGEN.
It had seemed pretty clear to me that this charger/Regen arrangement WAS the right thing to do when bypassing the Regen's regulator. Is this actually wrong?
If so, then I have obviously very much misunderstood something, and or missed a bunch of postings.
So, what are the steps and equipment types am I supposed to use to perform your suggested Regen modification and bypass the regulator?
I am now officially confused.
Lance A.
"All the advice to Lance to use a battery charger to "trickle" charge the battery is WRONG as it will have a 3.65V regulated voltage output which will be detrimental to, if not kill the USB hub chip &/or USB clock.:
Just don't place a cell reading 3.6v hot off the charger, into the Regen circuit, without some sort of voltage step down device, is what jkeny is stating, as it will fry the Regen.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks for the simple straight forward explanation. However, this "Simple" reverse able Regen upgrade is NOT so straight forward or simple. So all chargers, even the D4 which has a specific LiFePo4 charging ability, is going to overcharge my 3.3V 26650 batteries to 3.6 volts? Then I must devise a method to downgrade the voltage to 3.3/3.2 volts before plugging said batteries into the Regens' regulator bypass points?
Now I need a voltage step down device in between the battery and the Regen. Could this device itself potentially contaminate the supposed purity of the LiFePo battery approach? If not then where and or how do I get this very specific .3 volt step down device?
Last, I know that I have been told again and again and again by JKENY, but is it at this point, after I have somehow lowered the voltage of my batteries from 3.6 volts to a safe 3.3 volts (after being charged by the D$ charger), that I can semi-permenantly attach my Lambda regulated DC power supply (set at 3.3 volts) to my LiFePo4 battery/ies to maintain a constant and safe 3.3 volt charge through the batteries and into the Regen?
Thank you very much for your patience. I am asking the above, hopefully final clarifying questions, on behalf of several interested and somewhat confused audiophiles.
Lance A.
Oh for god's sake - what's all this about????????
Forget about battery chargers - just do what I said originally - it couldn't be simpler.
If you can't understand my original explanation of this tweak then I suggest that you shouldn't be doing this!
Chris, it seems there is a severe confusion of communication on this thread.
My advice to Lance, at this stage, is not to attempt this tweak - it will probably end badly
To answer Lance's question directly & avoid him damaging his Regen:
"So, are you telling me that I should absolutely NOT charge my LiFePo4 batteries with the D4 LiFePo4 26650 specific battery charger and keep this charger connected to these batteries as they are then connected to my REGEN? This will potentially damage my REGEN. "
YES, CORRECT, LANCE, DON'T DO THIS!!
JKENY,
Are you so sensitive that you feel the need to result to rudeness, disrespect and insults when dealing with such comparatively small and unimportant matters?
Your ORIGINAL instructions were intriguing, to say the least. You even attached a very clear photo showing the + and - solder points for the wires leading in from the 3.3V LiFePo4 battery.
You are correct. This part IS quite simple. But, there was NO discussion of how to properly attain and maintain a Regen safe 3.3 Volts to and from the LiFePo4 batteries.
I inquired, several times, how to attain and maintain 3.3 volts from LiFePo4 chargers that charge these batteries to 3.6 volts. I had assumed that these chargers would charge a 3.3Volt battery at 3.3 Volts. These are just a few of the things that battery novices just do not know. Hell, I had no clue that this extra .3 Volts would be dangerous if used during this Regen modification.
But thanks to slow shipping and the helpful insight of others, we/I did not feed the 3.6 volt charge into the Regens' bypass site.
JKENY, The following quote is from one of your earlier posts pertaining to this topic.
"The batteries are LiFrPo4 (Lithium nano Ferrous Phosphate) which have a voltage of 3.3 (not 3.7V) & have a battery size known as 26650
You don't need a special battery charger-just a regulated supply that outputs 3.3V or 3.4V Permanantly connected to the battery it Trickle charges it & there's no overcharging"
The above (in quotes) was your response to me on November 24. This was prior to all of the upheaval and input concerning LiFePo4 battery chargers actually charging these batteries to a REGEN upgrade unsafe 3.6 Volts.
According to the above attachment, all that I ever needed was to plug my Lambda regulated DC power supply into my 26650 batteries, set the output voltage to 3.3 Volts, then attach two wires from the batteries (continuously attached to the Lambda supply) into the Regens' regulator bypass points.
The Lambda power supply will charge and maintain my LiFePo4 batteries at a safe 3.3 volts into the Regen.
For a battery novice such as myself, these can be confusing issues when you are working from a point of ignorance (not stupidity).
My only goal here was to get this upgrade working and then hopefully rave about it's dramatic sonic upgrade here and else ware. Just maybe not as simple or safe to get done as advertised.
Honestly I feel you have possibly misread what is going on here. John's tone is not directed at you but in my opinion the misinformation and attempt to derail something so simple. As it was first explained just put the battery there and set up a 3.3 volt power supply to keep it at a perpetual state. Just that simple. All the other discussion is pretty much irrelevant.
Regards
Bob
Lance, I'm not being rude - I'm just frustrated & giving my best advice to you based on what I see posted here. Every time I give you a clear direction you seem to take someone else's advice & come back with the same questions again. I have saved you from possibly ruining your Regen by taking other's erroneous advice & yet you seem to paint me as the one doing you wrong. I think, by any stretch of the imagination, I have been very patient but even I have my limits.
I see you now attribute this near miss to others advice - jeez!! "But thanks to slow shipping and the helpful insight of others, we/I did not feed the 3.6 volt charge into the Regens' bypass site. "
"You are correct. This part IS quite simple. But, there was NO discussion of how to properly attain and maintain a Regen safe 3.3 Volts to and from the LiFePo4 batteries." Yes there were very clear instructions about how to keep the battery charged at 3.3V - I'm sorry if you didn't understand this very clear advice & it's on of the reasons why I say that you should not attempt this tweak
Yes, as per my Nov 24 reply to you, you can use any regulated supply outputting 3.3V DC & connect to the battery
This whole topic has been infiltrated by a number of people here with talk of explosion bags, trickle battery charging & all manner of side issues about my commercial reasons for offering this tweak.
If you are confused, blame these people - it's certainly not my fault - my message has been clear, precise & very simple right from the very start.
As I said I have reached the stage in my understanding where I'm realising you don't understand why, what you were being told by others was wrong (& likely to damage your Regen). On this basis, I advised you & continue to advise you not to try this tweak. If you find this insulting, I'm sorry!
Actually I was also quite clear and stated more than once that I HEARD YOU.
I wrote that I would follow your advice and use My Lambda regulated variable DC power supply at 3.3 volts output to connect to the batteries and the Regen continuously. But I remained a bit fuzzy about if the Regulated power supply could be used during all phases of this project; initially charging as well as maintaining a 3.3 volt charge of the batteries while the batteries were/are plugged into the Regen. Or, do I need a proper LiFePo4 charger up front to charge the virgin 26650 batteries?
That's it! All of the other noise aside my objective here is to evaluate and report back on the sonic results. Just as I said that I would.
I wish that this discussion could have been via private email which I MUCH prefer to forums. I do not understand why you were unable to make contact via my older AOL@chopper87.com, but please give my Lance2181@gmail.com a try. No more noise.
Lance A.
Lance,
Something wrong with your email - I emailed you AOL@chopper87.com but it bounced back
I sent one to Lance2181@gmail.com which seemed to get through?
Lance I have posted this over & over again in this thread & in other threads & I tried to email you but your blocking emails.I gave you this answer when your first asked the question on Nov 24th in this post http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/15/153239.html
"The batteries are LiFePO4 (Lithium nano Ferrous Phosphate) which have a voltage of 3.3V (not 3.7V) & have a battery size known as 26650
You don't need a special battery charger - just a regulated supply that outputs 3.3V or 3.4V. Permanently connected to the battery it trickle charges it & there's no overcharging "
Nothing has changed since that answer !!
**DO NOT USE A BATTERY CHARGER ON THE BATTERY WHILE IT IS POWERING THE REGEN - IT WILL CHARGE THE BATTERY TO AN UNACCEPTABLE VOLTAGE OF 3.65V **
It couldn't be more simple - just attach a power supply that outputs 3.3V DC to the battery & connect the battery to the Regen as I have stated already so many times.
This has been said so many times now that I'm wondering why I have to say it again. There are some participating on this thread who know what the setup is & I wonder why they didn't warn you off your mistaken approach?
I'm not going to participate any further in this subject I have stated exactly what's needed & can I suggest, without insulting anybody, that if anybody is confused at this point then they shouldn't attempt this tweak - it's just not for them.
Edits: 12/05/15 12/05/15 12/05/15
It is pointless to argue about precise definitions with people who don't understand the basics of the technology. If a few REGEN hub chips fail as part of learning experiences it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
When I was 12 years old my uncle, who was an artist and art professor, was wiring a switch in an extension cord to enable him to turn off his TV without getting out of bed. (No remotes in the 1950's.) Rather than wiring the switch in series with the TV he had wired it in parallel. He showed me the cord. I suggested that it wouldn't work and that it would blow the fuse. He ignored me and plugged the TV into the cord and the cord into the wall. We noticed that the TV played. Then he turned the switch and the TV went off.
"See, it worked." "No it didn't, Uncle Peter. Flick the switch back the other way." The TV remained off. The fuse was blown.
My uncle was a very smart man and learned from his mistake. He studied a lot of books, did a lot of experimentation and eventually got some patents on electronic circuitry.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
And your story was a great analogy, as well as good thing to say: between the lines. This is one time where it is CRITICAL to understand the technology/chemistry. Sometimes, NOT understanding the technical foundations is OK, - if there's a clear, well written, step-by-step installation procedure.
I feel sorry for both Chopper and John. John found something cool, and shared. It is awesome, and some thing that I know that I'm not the only person who wants to see more of in the future on this board: or at least over in the DIY/Tweaks forum and linked to.
I also feel sorry for Chopper who bravely put himself out there at the risk of being called stupid: to understand what is going on, and try something that he ALSO is psyched to try and is really cool.
Both John and Chopper became truly frustrated by various other posts, (some had merit), that were flying around here.
Yes, the tweak is pretty simple. However, there were some things that were forgotten in outlining the installation process. There were also some assumptions that were made FROM THE USAGE perspective, that (I believe) should've been written at the outset, that may have affected whether or not someone wanted to try this.
Abe has a great suggestion that the best way to clear all of this up is to have a great installation procedure written up that has step-by-step instructions, several pictures, links to sample parts that can/should be purchased: (before & after). By having such a procedure, people are going to learn about, or at least have a clear path to research this, and understand it better. A very good install procedure with pics, is going to also make it incredibly obvious how one is supposed TO USE the new, modded, Regen.
I really hope that these threads do not discourage John and Chopper from posting here in the future: stepping back: i have learned some valuable things by quietly reading....
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Yes, I found this thread very frustrating as I'm sure Lance did too.
I was careful at the outset to state that this should only be done by someone competent with DIY - I'm not going to be creating a page of detailed step-by-step instructions with pictures because, frankly, it's not needed. If anyone feels that they need this level of support then they shouldn't be attempting this tweak.
Anyway, I've given up participating here as I said already & the only reason I'm posting on these threads is for damage limitation to prevent mis-information and prevent people damaging their Regen by not following my instructions.
I'm glad that Lance has got it right now & hope to hear his impressions in time
Fair enough... I did see where you said, (and at the outset too), that one should have a certainly level of DIY skills before attempting.I am glad that you posted the battery mod: and as I said, - I learned from the thread.
Best of luck.
Cheers,
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 12/06/15
Yes, Tony, I agree that experience is the great teacher but one thing that has been demonstrated to me on this forum is a desire to see this fail for whatever reason.There have been accusations levied at me of commercial interest; of lack of knowledge; of giving dangerous advice, etc & I wasn't aware of the basic level of electronic knowledge evident here so my posts now are just a damage limitation exercise - I don't want people damaging their devices because they are incorrectly following my very simple guidelines & then blaming me for the damage
Edits: 12/05/15
I am usually one of the first people to jump on (M) posters if they are promoting their wares. You aren't doing this. Your postings strike me as useful and entirely reasonable.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
Well the same commercial jibes are still being posted by AbeCollins & Lance is now stating that he was saved from damaging his Regen by the helpful advice of others - it's mind boggling - lance was being led down the path of probably damaging his Regen & I seemed to be the only one trying to stop this madness.As I saw posted elsewhere "Don't confuse me with the facts, I have already made up my mind"
It's a strange & twisted world we live in where truth takes a back seat to people's egos & the internet makes people think that they can say anything they like.
Edits: 12/05/15
jkeny,
If you want to continue useing me to try and bolster your story and attitude in posts then try to get it right. I was saved from potentially damaging my Regen because my charger, which I ordered weeks ago, has not arrived. No ONE or ONES saved me so stop making shit up.
I have given up expecting straight answers from you. You cast dispersions and misdirections to avoid confronting direct questions.
You could have been more of a human being and recognized that ignorance and stupidity are not the same thing. Yes I am only currently ignorant concerning the finer points of battery chemistries and proper charging technics. I can change that. Spend some time om my immunology and medical forums and lets just see how you are perceived.
I will still treat you with respect and the patience that you seem to lack .
I have yet to hear from a single individual on this forum who has been successful at both charging their 3.2/3 volt LiFePo4 batteries and maintaining that charge into your Regen modification VIA a single charging/power supply device. Yet this is what I am supposedly less than for not being able to accomplish by following your initial plan.
And my email has "0" issues receiving mail.
Lance, I'm sorry you have taken such a negative attitude to my attempts to help you - I have emailed you directly now that you have given me your email - whether you realise it or not your profile says that emails are not accepted from unsolicited members!I have emailed you directly & hope this clarifies matters?
Edits: 12/05/15
It may not be his fault that emails aren't accepted. There is a bug in the Asylum software. Over the years my email status has been put in this mode several times. Initially, I had thought it was just Asylum Assholes who set their mail that way, but after seeing my setting changed to not accept member emails (at least three times so far) I realized that there was more to it than that.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
"" Your postings strike me as useful and entirely reasonable.""
That is why it was attacked so ferociously...
Please close this thread as it contains too much incorrect information that will damage the Regen if followed & I am not comfortable with this.
As I said before this is so simple a concept that I can't understand why so much misinformation & complexity is being introduced?
Please close this down!!
...and I mean this sincerely. Not trying to be rude or anything.
Why not publish what you want to convey on one clean page possibly with photos and such. Then post it to your own website at https://sites.google.com/site/jkciunas/ and no one will muck it up. You can then refer people to your website.
Just a thought.
Jkeny,
I have followed your posts diligently, asked many questions and posted very clearly that I had purchased the 26650 batteries and had ordered a Nitecore D4 battery charger with LiFePo4 charging capabilities to be used to charge/trickle charge these batteries. This charger is to have my 26650 batteries seated continuously in it while two leads/wires go inside the Regen thus bypassing it's regulator and improving the sound. I would, then ONLY use the Regen's stock power input connection point for the Auralic Vega DAC's TURN ON handshake. I would then turn off or disconnect the 5 Volt input to the Regen and power the remaining Regen components ar 3.3 volts via my 26650 batteries that are seated in the D4 charger.
If this is now incorrect and dangerous to my Regen, then I am either admittedly stupid or misinformed.
Jkeny, I have ONLY been depending on YOUR directions as this IS YOUR modification. I have been excited about reporting the results of my listening evaluations. Please once and for all, clarify the steps of this "simple" process. If I have gone off course, then please fix my course. DO not abandon me now as I have done nothing to cause you to do so.
Lance A.
What a helpful guy. You even posted JKs web site address for him...
Just in case he did not already know it...
he posted it for EVERYONE who might by chance be reading this thread.
"he posted it for EVERYONE who might by chance be reading this thread."
Oh... Thought that was against the rules. ;)
It was free publicity for his battery operated DACs and converters.
Just more disingenuous insults!
Carry on Bob. Enjoy yourself.
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