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In Reply to: RE: separates, separates, separates posted by Sordidman on June 17, 2015 at 08:56:33
Whatever your preference. All I said was that I have an interest in Aurender but only in a single box setup. I have no desire to have an external disk hanging off the box, or a separate NAS to administer and maintain. Has nothing to do with the off-topic philosophical presumptions in your last post.
Follow Ups:
The streamer boys insist you use the streamer the way they want you to!!!
Stop being a salmon...
so much comedy out there, and we get that from you?
so let down.....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Would you rather he be a Lox???
What about Hootie and the Blowfish...
I would prefer that if you stray from the topic in ignorance, and attempt to troll with humor: that you at least be funny: failing at both is so pointless....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
All of a sudden on topic is so impotent to you... ok...
You and your streamer friend often infect many non streamer threads... Now we are so touchy...
to use as a "server"
Don't you use a NAS drive?
Yes, - I was making some assumptions there: sarcasm aside, - they've already got, and many other manufacturers have the music server thing down, - no reason to build another 1/2 one.
Anyway, as you say, to each his own.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Nope, I don't use a NAS drive for music. I have one drive on the Mac. From there I can rip and manage the single library AND use the Mac as a NAS if you will, as you can with any PC. From there I can use it in my main system, and stream to where ever I want within our home.My preference would be to do the same from something like the Aurender if it makes sense. If it doesn't, then my Mac setup makes more sense for my needs.
Edits: 06/17/15
Hey Abe
I agree it is to each their own. While some folks scream purity at every link and rave about measurements, at the end of the day its all about what suits your needs.
FWIW, I think the Mac does exactly what you want....however there is nothing wrong with kicking tires.
Dynobots Audio
Music is the Bridge between Heaven and Earth - 音楽は天国と地球のかけ橋
You last sentence makes sense... The streamer is just another computer, and less powerful than you MAC. If you are not going to go with a NAS the streamer makes little sense.
IMO makes no sense to me at all. I can do better with my own system. Not not everyone can, or wants to. Hence the streamer...
Why do you say that?
A streamer is just a device that allows you to play music that is stored elsewhere. The music could be stored on a NAS, or on an ordinary computer like Abe says, or cloud storage, or an internet radio station, or service like Tidal.
If you only ever listen to music on your main system, and are happy with your computer audio setup, then a streamer doesn't make sense for you. But if you are like most people and listen to music on multiple systems/devices, you might consider streamers as way to make your music collection available in multiple places without have to maintain multiple copies of your music library.
A streamer is just a device that allows you to play music that is stored elsewhere. The music could be stored on a NAS, or on an ordinary computer like Abe says, or cloud storage, or an internet radio station, or service like Tidal.By some definitions a streamer includes a music server with local content. You'll see the term streamer used in both cases but as the industry evolves we are starting to see a shift more toward your definition.
If you only ever listen to music on your main system, and are happy with your computer audio setup, then a streamer doesn't make sense for you. But if you are like most people and listen to music on multiple systems/devices, you might consider streamers as way to make your music collection available in multiple places without have to maintain multiple copies of your music library.
I have one copy of my library on my local disk in my main system (Mac Mini & DAC) and can also stream content from that single library to multiple other devices throughout our home w/o the need for more than that single library.
Apparently Aurender sees a market for streamers with local storage. Otherwise they would not be making the X100 series with upwards of 12TB internal HDD.
Edits: 06/17/15
You are correct it is designed to use internal drives so no reason not to. Looking at it they are probably using a Bay Trail CPU so they have the power to easily incorporate drives.
I agree Dave. But Abe was saying he wanted to put a drive in it. Makes little sense IMO if that is all he wants it for.
Not a computer, and it can't be used as such.
It is no more a computer than a CD player. As you keep holding to that lie you tell yourself, - it says to everyone that you don't understand what a computer is....
""I can do better with my own system.""
That would imply that you've heard some digital file players: how many would it take?
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
This is just too much already. Linux OS on a dedicated board... Call it a pineapple if you want to...
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I'm pretty sure it's a Linux operating system variant of some sort, customized by Aurender for their streamers. It has lots of functionality and lots 'hidden' from the user in order to maintain simplicity of operation.
off device....The device still cannot be configured to run email, or browse the internet, or load/run Photoshop. No person would ever buy such a device and call it a computer. Or a place like Best Buy would never call it such, & sell it that way. Even a Roku or an Apple TV, is far more of a computer than these 1 use devices.
But then we've had these arguments before....
I just find it very ironic that one would praise high end audio manufacturers for their ability to build great CDPs, - yet criticize them for designing digital file players, that start from the ground up, as single use, networked file players, sans the noise of multifunction computers. It's closer to a Schlage iOS door lock...
My NAS drive has a limited version of Linux installed on it, and I call it a, (guess what), NAS drive.
My Router has a limited use firmware OS on it, and people don't call routers computers.As i understand it, Bob is only interested in fighting: standing alone in myopia of "it's my solution, so it has to be best."
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/17/15
"As i understand it, Bob is only interested in fighting: standing alone in myopia of "it's my solution, so it has to be best.""
Not at all... But for some stupid reason you cannot comprehend that all the devices are considered limited use, imbedded or application specific computers. Doing email or Photoshop does not make something a computer.
See above a computer...
A keypunch machine is NOT a computer.
Nor is a sorter.
A tabulator?
Maybe.
IBM 650?
OK.
Well, the point is many of these streamers do in fact use a variant of a commonly available open source operating system (usually a Linux variant) that will run on just about any standard PC or compact Intel based motherboard in a custom chassis.Rather than reinvent the entire wheel (operating system & Intel architecture), many streamer companies will take a Linux variant and cut out bloat that is not pertinent to a streamer and limit user access to functions that the manufacturer decides he wants in his 'appliance'. He also shields the 'appliance' user from other complexities that lie under the hood.
Many products are made this way, not just streamers.
The benefit is that the user sees it as a complete turnkey product while the manufacturer's time to market is quicker. They can manufacture a product that is repeatable and also more easily maintained. By limiting what the user has access to, they also have less to support when he calls for help.
But it's still fundamentally a computer under the hood. You control it through an App that loads onto your tablet and communicates with the streamer over Wifi.
Edits: 06/17/15
I see your point regarding the ability to a run stripped down version of Linux....But I also see so much (typical PC) hardware gone from these boxes... USB bus, (Even the Rasberry Pi has 3 USB ports). {And we've seen the great amount of work that it would take to use a rasberry pi as even a browser}; No video card, or port, no PCI bus, no RAM slots, some have no HD bus, etc. etc. The "layman" isn't going to call a Roku a computer, a rasberry Pi a computer, a typical NAS drive a computer, or their microwave, etc.
What this is a way for people to illogically dismiss the efforts of high end manufacturers to re-design file playback devices with the principles of high performance audio, instead of many different software functions.
Being in computer maintenance and IT infrastructure for 26 years: I've seen a lot of variances in hardware design and function.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/17/15 06/17/15
Well we can agree to disagree then.
As for Aurender...
- I see a couple computer industry standard USB ports including one for attaching to a DAC.
- There must be a computer industry standard SATA port to attach to SSD or HDD,
- I see a front panel LCD display that is likely to use a computer industry standard video interface.
- I see what appears to be a common memory DIMM partially visible under the massive heat sink.
- I see a computer industry standard RJ45 Ethernet port, that uses computer industry standard protocol stack for networking.
- In the App setup I see computer industry standard SMB protocol for file sharing.
- I see that they offer remote tech support which means they have to adhere to certain computer industry standard networking, software, and protocol stacks.
Smells like a computer to me! ;-)
Yep.....
Got me on that one.....The Aurender and the Pink Faun, and a few others do have video and typical PC hardware... you're right....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Amazing a breakthrough!!!
No one's asking you to open a closed mind. You're safe.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Still waiting for details on how many so called "over priced pretty boxes" he has compared his computer to....
I have an open mind, been doing this much too long not to... I just think some people have limited knowledge or experience and cannot comprehend or look at the big picture.
Do you really think when an audio manufacture put some parts in a pretty box and charges be $$$ does it automatically make it revolutionary or great? You can do this with anything in audio.
You can buy an expensive amplifier or build one that can sound just as good, I've been doing this for years. Same can be said for speakers, or turntables pretty much anything. I think it's foolish to total discount what people can do on their own and just insist that the pretty and expensive product from the manufacturer must always be superior.
If you have had bad luck getting good sound from a conventional computer system I'm sorry, but you cannot project this on everyone else. One of my current systems is actually just like some of the streamers that seem to be so loved, but without the pretty box or high-price. Proper power supply, case and cooling considerations, EMI and RFI considerations all play into making a good sounding system.
Believe me some manufacturers do not go this far, and for the average person this may be fine. You have to try to keep an open mind.
""audio manufacture put some parts in a pretty box and charges be $$$ does it automatically make it revolutionary or great?""Do you think that I'm saying that?
Do you think that that is all an innovator like Ed Meitner has done? Put a $400 CD player into a fancy box? Do you think that many high-end manufacturers who've had a lot of experience in designing great sources are the same as manufacturers who set up a factory to run off 5 million $400 CD players? Do you think that high end audio manufactuer's end up staying in business if they build devices in fancy boxes that a DIYER can build?
Nothing says "closed mind" louder than someone who denigrates the builder of an almost universally recognized SOTA product as "the same thing in a fancy case"
In the case of the Auralic Aries, (which really isn't even the best, or that great a product). It has very few of the elements of a commercial, multi-function, PC: (no noisy power supply, no EIDE/HD bus, no PCI bus, no multi-USB bus, (important), - no IDE or bus for DVD/CD, no chip fans, no typical, involved, on mainboard video. Plus it has SPDIF added, higher quality connectors everywhere, etc.
""You can buy an expensive amplifier or build one that can sound just as good,""
That can be true, and it can be very untrue. It depends on what you mean by expensive, and what kind of amplifier you're talking about. And how expensive will it be for you to build? No DIYer can build a LAMM amp for the same amount that will sound as good as a LAMM. (There are lots of good reasons why this is so).
""I've been doing this for years.""
Building amps that sound just as good as whose? I do not believe you, and I don't think that you're capable. Yeah, I believe that a talented DIYer can build the equivalent of a Vincent amp.
""If you have had bad luck getting good sound from a conventional computer system I'm sorry, but you cannot project this on everyone else.""
I don't, I'm getting pretty good sound from a conventional computer system. But, the rest of my system is close to a SOTA system, and the conventional computer system doesn't measure up. I happen to enjoy the experience more, when it sounds better. And of course, this isn't about me. So far, most EVERYONE is claiming that their network digital file players are sounding better than their modded conventional computer. I am not projecting anything onto anyone else. I am of the OPINION that no computer, (especially unmodified at great expense), can compare with music playback, as a high end playback manufacturer, - who are experts at superior performing audio playback, as opposed to computer designers who denigrate high performance audio.
""One of my current systems is actually just like some of the streamers that seem to be so loved, but without the pretty box or high-price. ""
Actually the "box" on the Aurilic Aries is crap. Have you heard any network file player? How would you know if your box measures up if you haven't directly compared your box? Yes, the power supply, cooling fans, etc. are important. But what about the connectors? Lack of USB buses, PCI buses, noisy video section, EIDE bus, and of course, your conventional mainboard with more noisy functions, as opposed to the custom one in the Aries and the Sonore?
""Believe me some manufacturers do not go this far, and for the average person this may be fine""
We, (or I), am not talking about some manufacturers, I am talking about high end audio manufacturers and designers, - who design for 1 thing, and are experts, and are (somewhat) inspired toward great sound, not Email.
"you have to try and keep an open mind"
Yep, that's why I seek out a wide range of experiences, and products. There's often, (certainly not always: I can cite tons of expensive gear builders whom I think build dogs), great reasons why expensive gear performs better, sometimes even a cursory investigation leads us to understand why.
The Fact is that a conventional, commercial, computer starts out as a piece of shit for superior audio playback, and it's not even designed and considered for mediocre audio playback by computer engineers. There's nothing WRONG with that. It's DESIGNED to do 1000s of tasks with 100s of software programs. It contains very few of the important elements in great hardware, and therefore great audio playback. A talented DIYer (perhaps yourself), can go in and modify some or several of these major problems & hindrances to great sound. But a high-end audio manufacturer, who knows what it takes to build/design superior performing audio products, can design more from the ground up, cut out the superfluous, and knows more about mitigating the noise & other issues... If you've really optimized your computer, you've spent thousands of dollars, and you've gotten yourself a pretty fancy box.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/18/15 06/18/15
Uh, nailed it. However I fear you wasted your breath. :)
The difference is you blather on WITHOUT any documented FIRST HAND experience with any of the devices mentioned here.
Just your stock "industry standard PC parts in a pretty box" answer.
That can apply to a SMALL group of products.
Byrston, as actually JUST updated the BDP series with their OWN in house soundcard, doing away with the very, very good sounding modified eJuli card they used previously.
Install 30 or 40 streamers over a period of time in your system and listen, compare, as I have, then you can talk.
You seem you labor with the fact that people cannot discuss or understand technology. One must have the device in hand to understand it.
It is not that complicated or magical. Most if not all of these devices are some type of computer system with an operating system design for music playback. No magic just different implementations with different degrees of success. Just because you do not have the desire or understanding how to do this does not mean others do not. Maybe tone down the attitude and read a little bit more about what other people are doing and maybe you will be happier.
"You seem you labor with the fact that people cannot discuss or understand technology.""
No, we all understand technology. The debate isn't about technology, the debate is comparative sound quality and those elements that contribute positively or negatively. This is determined by listening: by experience.
Experienced people don't hold to your closed minded viewpoint. You are simply saying, "because I did it, it's better." You're trying to justify a 1 sided opinion, that flies in the face of the majority of people who have built up experiences.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I also agree listening is important, I never said it wasn't. There is a great deal of collective and individual listening that you can or cannot accept, that is up to you. From what I have heard personally and understand most of these items are nothing that out of the ordinary. Most people that purchase these type of devices don't have the wherewithal or want to be bothered with the nuts and bolts, they just want to play music with the least amount of intervention. There is nothing wrong with that. It is like someone who would prefer living in an apartment versus owning a house. Someone cuts the grass, does the maintenance etc. it is just disconcerting when someone keeps insisting that a certain concept is better than another just because they are not able to achieve positive results does not mean others cannot.
Someone keeps mentioning Bryston. From their very first amps, to many other of their products that I've heard I'm not that impressed. They are solid mainstream, but not super high-end as seems to be felt by certain individuals. There is lots of good stuff out there but people should keep an open mind and make their own choices.
Bob,I appreciate you very much taking this down a notch in tone.
In that spirit, I should just let it go: with the point of saying keeping an open mind & trying different approaches is of benefit no matter what level anyone wants to go to. (Instead, I've written a book, - sorry).
""""just disconcerting when someone keeps insisting that a certain concept is better than another just because they are not able to achieve positive results does not mean others cannot.""
This isn't about a failure to achieve positive results. I have achieved very positive results: i believe that everyone has. I have never said or argued that one can't achieve very good sound from PCs. I trust you, and I trust Carcass elucidation of his results. I know that MercMan & Abe have achieved very good sound as well.
However, I have said that one cannot achieve SOTA level SQ with PCs. Not on the basis of achieved results, but through a fundamental difference in design goals. And I have tried, (likely quite unsuccessfully), to point out that the commercial conventional computer has as it's PRIME elemental, and philosophical goal to be something other than a high performance digital file playback device. (The people that design computers, are the kind of people who say that everything sounds the same, and $20,000 speakers are snake oil).
A SOTA audio device can never be something that is mass produced and it is absolutely, contingent on quality of hardware. The fundamental design of commercial computers is superior software performance and multiple program interaction.Optimization in each discipline is going to yield "better" performance in each area.
"""insisting that a certain concept is better"
I am not doing that for anything but SOTA playback. The network player approach that the SQUEEZEBOX encompasses is not going to be as good as a computer set up. Now matter how I optimized my SBT, - I couldn't get it as good as the (relatively unoptimized) Mac Mini.
By saying that I do not believe SOTA sound is achievable with a computer, it is entirely my opinion, based on my experiences. If someone extrapolates that to interpret that I am saying that their approach sucks, or that computer playback sucks: then they are simply wrong. I do think that manufacturer's "approaches" differ according to their goals. A $400 Sony CD player is gonna have different goals than a Zanden. I have not heard MercMan's setup, maybe it would best the Sonore or the Aurender. If it did, I couldn't afford it anyway. Sadly, - I couldn't afford the APL with the VRDS Neo transport anyway. I am reasonably sure that MercMan's MAC setup is 3 times the cost of the Sonore or Aurender.
I don't think that it's any secret that (opposed to the old days of AA), that there's very many people here interested in SOTA playback. At the end of the day, we're all just playing music, goodness. To quote Bill Murray in the Razor's Edge, "it just doesn't matter."
Some insight into approach from the Aurender folks I believe...
"We built this device as a pure player. It doesn't have a PC motherboard so it doesn't perform functions like ripping or managing your library. Those sacrifices equate to a cleaner more natural sound as I'm sure you'll hear. I wanted to improve on my old Windows-based system and found that I couldn't. Most manufacturers, myself included, were using the same set of workarounds. We had great linear power supplies feeding commodity pico power supplies to make the connections to the PC. Those added noise. We were using PC motherboards with tons of regulators and overkill specs also adding noise. Many folks use SOtM filters (SATA, USB) to try to take that noise back out. But filters don't get all of the noise. A couple of years ago, I was watching a video about 3D printing and how it was an additive manufacturing process. They made the statement that an additive approach is less wasteful and overall better than a subtractive build. That's when it hit me.
"We're all building these monstrous PCs, then try our best to kill everything off and reduce it down to an audio player. We're tweaking the registry, killing services, adding filters all to remove things that shouldn't be there in the first place. They're there because they come in the box by default. What if we built the audio player from the ground up? That's what I did this time. This was a little long-winded but I wanted to convey that what we're doing is different. We're not a UPnP streamer which requires a relatively complex setup and an active connection between the renderer, controller & library. (I tried that for a few months and found that the typical audiophile would be overly frustrated with the complexity. Plus, the best board I could find, from ABC-PCB, didn't sound all that amazing.) We're not a PC-based server/player with all the issues that come with PC hardware and operating systems. We're a network player. We're simple to use. We don't need filters because we're not adding much noise ('none' wouldn't be true) in the first place. We don't need to kill services or throttle extra CPU cores because they're not there to begin with.""
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Edits: 06/18/15 06/18/15
You responses are obviously canned on a clip board and you just cut and paste.
NO one here, NOT a single poster every claimed there was "magic" in any turn key solution. That is YOUR phrasing.
We are talking about products optimized by AUDIO engineers not computer engineers
The fact is you have not heard these products. We have. AND we did go the computer route and continually did comparisons.
Who needs to tone it down?
"their OWN in house soundcard"
Just what we need... Let's bring back the sound card...
I will take Bryston's engineering, proven over 40 years, over your quips.
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