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69.105.110.74
Anybody, that comment on the following OTL's please. Atma-Sphere, Joules, or... want to stay in a budget of say no more than 10K.(used) But living where I do, I don't have the luxury of hearing these products. They will be the foundation for a completely new system with exception to the Merlins VSM's speakers. I know that all information suggests the synergy of Merlins/Joules But,I need to of other options that are available to me. Thanks
Follow Ups:
Probably because I own them. I've listened to Joule stuff and Atma-Sphere stuff back-to-back and prefered the Joule. I thought that the Joule had a much "jucier" presentation (especially in the mids) than the Atma-Sphere, which was a little dry for my taste. I'm not sure what kind of sound you might prefer.I've also heard the Berning (actually two of them) at my house when "fourprof" was nice enough to bring his down for a little comparison. My listening room was in progress and we were having some ground issues, but my take was that the Berning was more detailed, but not as exciting as the Joule. I was amazed by the detail I was hearing out of the Bernings, but the Joule's sounded more like live music to me.
That being said, I think we both chose right for our musical tastes. I've got a lot of vocal stuff that really shines with the Joule equipment, while John listens to mostly instrumental guitar music that really pops on the Bernings.
Someone at Merlin described the Berning/Joule difference this way: Think of a super high resolution satellite picture of New York City in which you can see every detail--that's the Berning. Now think of a vibrant picture of the Amazon rain forest--that's the Joule.
Try and hear them all if you can.
Dave
BadgerDMS, you are absolutely correct in the fact that all these amps are all very good indeed, a leap in sonic attributes over transformer coupled designs and a person should pick a amp that suits his listening tastes/requirments and lifestyle.Allan
David Berning Co
Allan
Berning in mono configuration.Seen systems using two ZH-270's.Do they use it as two stereo amps or as mono's ?Wattage in mono ?More powerful ZH-270 possible with the technology used ?
Thanks
Blue Bull
The amp is easily converted into mono to give 140 watts per channel, using the ZH technology an amp 300 watts per channel is feasible but anything is possible with this technology !One of the keys is the high efficiency Berning designed proprietary power supply, a interesting aspect of this supply is it's ability to use unlimited capacitance storage, 100 million micro farads or more if you want :) and so much, much more stuff, let's just say there is a lot of proprietary/patented unique designs all cramped into a little bitty package :)
A design like this can turn around the fortunes of companies like McIntosh, companies like Sony or Marantz can make it into something spectacular, with stunning looks and lots of press but by then you'll be paying $25K or more and happy to do so ;)
Want to see something really unique, look for a multi-channel ZOTL amp at the Montreal show, as I said, anything is possible :)
Allan
Hi Allan, after using a zh270 for 4 years now I find I like it best with a parafeed all transformer coupled preamp in front of it. tranny coupling does -some- things better than otl imhO. The combo is stunning, little more hum, lots more glory and sweetness. I realize it's an odd combo but I wonder how that zh270 would sound if the wiper pot was replaced with a Tribute tranny based autoformer volume control? actually I know what it would sound like, heaven. You could do the same thing with a Sonic Euphoria or another tranny based passive linestage. I think the Berning is the undefeated otl (zotl)for delivering bass into a load no question. It is a little dry in it's presentation and that's good (it's accurate). Sweetening it slightly with a transformer may make David cringe but to me it's the "Roses Lime Juice" maragrita, killer sweet yet tangy not too sour and definately powerfull.TC
Hi Terry, oh boy, put a tranny in a ZH-270? You can only imagine all the trouble and years and years that it took to design out all signal tranny's or the need for one and to put one again into the signal path would probably put Dave over the edge to insanity :)The amp adds no sonic signature of such of it's own, it was not design to be a tone control or a tone altering device, is that not why all you speaker designers love the ZH-270 :) we'll leave the coloring up to other components in a system, the amp presents your system, not itself.
Yes, it is undefeated in bass but it's undefeated into any varying speaker loads, high frequency as well, that's why people are startled by the clarity and openness, there is every bit of soul in this amp as any but it's hidden by the true linearity capability of the top end.
As well, I cannot emphasize enough the use of proper interconnects with the ZH-270, it's very capable of reproducing high RF energy into low speaker impedances, that's why I recommend the Stereovox, with high shielding and very small signal wire.
Oh, you need to let me upgrade that amp at sometime.
Allan
David Berning Co
I realize the annoyance I can become on this subject. I agree the amp adds nothing to the signal. A transfrmer in the signal path is not neccesarily a bad thing. A state of the art, transformer made by a craftsman is a beautiful thing. In the case of the volume potentiometer, if the signal goes through it I would think one with all copper windings would always sound better than one with carbon resistive material. Balancing inductive distortion and the distorion of the wiper pot attenuator is easy by just turning the zh all the way up and using a autoformer type passive device. It's sweet. I base this only on experience with these devices not experience building them. Just a thought.TC
I am sure it's sweet and some people would love sweet:)But the point is, we possible have the near "perfect" tube amp design, you can't say the amp is sweet, you can't really say it's dry because it's not, or it would still be dry now but the fact that it's now sweet, is a point I have been trying to make in the past, the ZH-270 is nothing but what it sees and you can make it into whatever you want, people just don't understand neutrality :)
Are you going to Montreal show?
Allan
Hi Allan,
your right about it being the inth degree of nuetral. I should have clarified too, that the amp itself is not perhaps what I refer too as needing more stweetness. But sources sure do. And that is why an autoformer based volume control might work good IMHO.50-50 on Montreal.
TC
Yeah, digital does need some help but we're not sure if it should be the job of the amp to do it, there is just no way of not paying the piper !The other problem is how far do you go? We have tested some transformer output coupled pre-amps and what we saw startled us, the signal was no where close to the signal coming in, not even to mention the ringing but oh, how sweet it was :)
I remarked to Dave the square wave more resembled a sine wave!So if you open the flood gates, then really, everything made sounds good, right but nothing resembles the music that was recorded, the science of accurate reproduction is gone, it's very, very hard to do things right.
As I mentioned above, I thought the Berning amps were superb. I also think there is a pretty big difference between an amp that is neutral and adds nothing to one that sounds like live music.I know that this is very subjective, but I used to be be quite a club rat in my younger days. I wrote show reviews for years, and have seen at least 2000 bands/performers live--some in great acoustic environments, and some in acoustic sewers.
To me what I like about the Joule is the space and texture around instruments that make them sound like the real thing. Whether it's an acoustic guitar, or Jack White plugged into his Marshall stack, all the instruments ring true to my ear. Does the Joule impart more euphonics than the Berning? Probably. But to me it sounds more real. I love David's amps and would love to be able to afford both the Berning and the Joule and hop back and forth according to my mood, but I could only afford one. Oh well.
The VZN-100 is a fine sounding amp, no two doubts about it, when it comes to OTL's, there is no other way for them to sound :)I too come from a recording/mixing live music back ground but real and recorded music are two different things, we are correct to the recording.
Absolutely, some things can be improved/changed for the listener with added niceties but not all recorded venues or in all systems! So it all comes down to taste and how you feel your music should sound like, the recording or what you think the recording should sound like, subjective I guess!
Do you use Vinyl?
I haven't in a long while, but I have a VPI Scoutmaster on order that should be here in a couple of weeks. I'm pairing it with a Benz M2 to start and am really looking forward to it.
Ahhhhhhhh :)..... Vinyl, God bless you!
Put me down for real. I have the Joule LA 100 - Cardas Golden Cross - VZN 100 - Merlin VSM setup. I have had it for 5 years and it still sounds wonderful. "Juicy" as they say at Merlin. When people come visit, they can't believe how good it sounds. The only downside is that is is fiddly and generates heat. But if you can get over that, it is great. I bought if from a guy who did not like the heat, but I am not nearly ready to trade with him for his high dollar 300B/Avant Garde setup. My wife loves it, too, variac and all.
skip clemmons
I use Atma-Sphere M60 Mk2's with Merlin VSM's and I think that it is a very successful match.Both the Atma-Sphere's and the Merlins can be described by the same adjectives: dynamic, lively, fast, accurate, musical... Bobby owns and uses 100 watt Joules at shows. They sound great. They look great; but again, I am very pleased and Atma-Sphere's are less expensive than comperable Joule Electra amps.
I have heard the VSM with the Berning and to my ears it did not have the same life that I hear with Atma-Sphere's. Some have said that it could have been the tubes in the Berning. I don't know if a tube change would make the difference. It is not the direction that I went or suggest.
Lastly, I think that Purist cables are a magical mix with our speakers and Atma-Sphere. If you do purchase Atma-Sphere amps, I also suggest that you run to them with a balanced (XLR) signal. I do not have a preamp. Instead I run directly from a Wadia which also is designed as a balanced product. This makes a positive difference.
Do you have the latest Merlin-MX? Mine are back with Bobby for the upgrade and I a eager to have them back.
Well, one option often paired with Merlins is the Berning 270. Way below 10K for one, for 10K you could get two, biamp or bridge and run as monoblocks like I do, and probably get all of Allan Bhagan's mods for the amps too.
Thanks for the suggestion. I have seen the name before. But, not knowledgeable about them. Can you tell me any of there attributes? Or more specifically the type of sound they produce. I guess it may also help to tell you that my primary taste in music is rock, pop, and jazz/blues. Rgds, Craig
Craig, where are you located?
There are over 50 ZH-270/Merlin owners, including 2 at Merlin speaker systems, maybe there is someone near you with a ZH-270?Allan
Berning Co.
Allen, thanks for taking the time out to answer me. I live in Orange Cnty, Ca. Huntington Beach to be precise. I would love the opportunity to hear them. Rgds, Craig
Craig, drop me a e-mail, info@allanbhagan.infoThanks
Allan
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