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In Reply to: RE: I tried some Toscanini Beethoven on LP - can't remember which Symph. Jeez..... posted by Rick W on August 02, 2017 at 15:49:29
Historical performances aren't for everyone. I started my interest in classical music in the late 1950s with lots of 78s and mono LPs. I'm able to "listen through" poor sound if the performance is interesting or moves me. So my first exposure to Beethoven 1 was that Toscanini/BBC recording (1937, not 1939 as I wrote by mistake), which I had because someone donated it to a thrift store, my grandmother volunteered there, and I got to take home records that had been there for a while without a purchaser. I don't care about the sound, it's as exciting a performance as I've ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x1GVKxAwt8
If poor sound on historical recordings bothers you, then you have dealt yourself out of listening to fantastic performances by Rachmaninoff, Busoni, Mengelberg, Furtwaengler, Koussevitsky, Flagstad, Kipnis, Pinza, Melchior, Schnabel, Fischer, Ponselle...the list goes on. But if the poor sound bothers you, there are good alternatives with better sound.
When I started listening to classical music, performances that were 50 years old came from wax cylinders and the like. Nowadays, there are lots of performances from 50 years ago that sound as good as or better than newly made classical recordings.
Follow Ups:
my exposure to Toscanini's Beethoven was similar, too.
I picked up his *famous* Nine Symphonies box set for a whooping 50 cents at the thrift store.
Didn't know much about his work at all but just for a grin, I decided to spin just one record... Ended up I went through the whole box set in one day! I didn't realise how listening to Beethoven can be so much fun. Even the terribly over-played 6th sounded fresh.
I even enjoy Caruso's old acoustic recording from the turn of the century.
I just feel however that there were a number of conductors who championed the Toscanini approach to these works (not slavishly of course), but who received far, far better engineering than Toscanini did. Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't ever listen to Toscanini - but I'd be reluctant to recommend the Toscanini recordings to a newbie in this repertoire.
and certainly not for audiophiles. But perhaps should be listened to within a context relative to how they are played today by today's artist. Perhaps then, deeper appreciation for the musicians or the composers can emerge?
I am bringing a millennial friend to a Beethoven Symphony 7 concert (Vanska/Minesota) next year. She does not own CDs or vinyl. Her main intake for music is Apple Music. She knows the name Beethoven. She does not know the tunes. Never heard the 7th. I am going to recommend several current recording as well as add Toscanini in the mix to see how she hears it. :)
To listen to the Toscanini record I bought and claim it was a great or even interesting performance would be ludicrous IMO. About the only thing you could hear well was the tempos. The link you provided has sound that is MUCH better.I have a cd of Duke Ellington's band that was recorded in the '20's and the sound beats the shitta the Toscanini I had (which IIRC was a performance in NYC), so it isn't just about the age of a recording.
Edits: 08/02/17 08/02/17
The sound is still poor because they transferred it from a cracked and repaired 78s plus went through an auto restoration filter. :(
How would I know what Toscanini record you bought? I have no opinion.
The NBC. Symphony ones recorded in Studio 8H (current home of Saturday Night Live) have no room reverb at all. The Carnegie Hall recordings are usually much better.
JVC XRCD24 of Elgar Enigma Variation recorded at Carnegie Hall on Dec. 1951. A single mike dangling 16 ft. above Maestro's head. (I can hear him breathing.)
This is the one JVC team flew out to BMG Tape Archive in PA to get a hold of the original 76cm/sec. tape.
They mention subsequent LP releases, even the same catalogue number, RCA apparently applied different EQ to *enhance* the sound. Quite often with bright steely upper ends and somewhat boosted bottom. (I can hear this in my various Toscanini reissue LPs ) Interestingly they note the condition of the tape is much better than what's been reported. No dropouts nor damage throughout, they did not have to do any reconstruction for the reissues. Apparently they have been kept well all these years. And you are right in that all the ones released in this series, they only picked from the Carnegie recording ( no live broadcast: they recorded some of the program AFTER the live broadcast from the Carnegie ) rather than Studio 8H due to better hall acoustics. Also, Sony's Andreas Mayer ( a terrific engineer who's done 'A State of Wonder' Glenn Gould CD as well as recent analogue vinyl reissue of the same title ) and Sony studio's archive staffs have helped them select the right master tape.
,
Even with a high hiss background noise, it holds tension much better than Karajan/BPO. A tad opaque and old-fashioned but faster paced salt of the Earth. But the fidelity is very challenging even for me. I reckon later NBC @ Carnegie set would be much better and I am guessing it would be move vivid and livelier than this Philly set. ( this is relatively legato for Toscanini and does not have his usual whiplash style )
.,
The Carnegie, on DaCapo lp, IIRC is not as immediate-sounding.
■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : April 16,1936 Carnegie Hall
Orchestra : New York Philharmonic■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : March 4, 1947 RECORDING SESSIONS ( CARNEGIE HALL )■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : December 2, 1947 RECORDING SESSIONS ( CARNEGIE HALL )
Orchestra : NBC SO■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : Feb.14,1953 Carnegie Hall
Orchestra : NBC SOI am not sure which recording DeCapo used but recording quality varies.
Edits: 08/05/17 10/09/17
. . . with K2 processing! ;-)
They only released handful out of his vast catalogue.
nt
You need to get his later 1951 recording on the XRCD CD. The same spirit heard in the prior recording is still here for the most part.
Personally I love his NYP version but I agree fidelity could be a lot better. :(
nt
I agree with Rick. Some places I just can't go.
Fifty years ago today is only 1967. Lots of good recordings from the late 50s would fit even before that.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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