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There are so many. Which are the best?
Follow Ups:
and Toscanini/NBC's and Wand/NDR's No.2.
In your face no doubt and this antique sound is for die-hards only, but sure beats a non confrontational boring salon style. In my mind, this is a perfect blend of Beethoven-ness with his early Mozart and Haydn influence.
An excellent digital remaster from the redbook. It possesses the elegance and bounce of Bohm but story telling of Toscanini.
A sense of humour and playfulness and a dash of curtness about it. Harnoncourt's brusque exectuion is fresh, down to earth yet elegant.
No such thing as the best as this is too subjective. Aforementioned Haitink/LSO is too pretty and well-mannered for my taste albeit much better than his prior 2 recording with London Phil and Concertgebouw.
At least certainly for the Harnoncourt. Wasn't this the first recorded cycle of the Beethoven symphonies to use the "urtext" Jonathan Del Mar edition? Plus natural trumpets. Then there's the metronome markings question. Sailing too close to HIP for some?
However, there was another "Urtext" published in 1978 (by Peters), edited by Peter Gulke. This was used in the early 90's set of Beethoven symphonies by Kurt Masur and the LGO. (Masur's earlier 70's set did not use this edition.) One interesting aspect of the Peters Urtext is that, in the Fifth Symphony Scherzo, the 90's Masur performance goes through the scherzo and trio an additional time, making for an ABABA form (as Beethoven used in the Fourth and Seventh Symphony scherzos). This practice follows Beethoven's autograph. However, Del Mar, in editing the Barenreiter Urtext, felt that that form did not represent Beethoven's final intention, so he changed it back to the simpler ABA form we hear in most performances. (I don't know what his basis was for deciding this.) As far as I know, the nineties Masur set is the only one to use the expanded form of the Fifth Symphony scherzo, per the autograph - although, as I mentioned, I'm far from having heard all recordings of the Fifth!Regarding the Harnoncourt performances, none of the performance aspects you mention would necessarily bother me. However, a desiccated approach to string vibrato certainly would, and Harnoncourt, although not nearly as bad as some, is just about at that threshold - for me, he's pushing it! ;-)
Edits: 08/03/17
The first two symphonies are ideally suited for original instruments. Just heard the Orchester Wiener Akademie, Martin Haselbock conducting, and the sonics and interpretation are first rate. New recording--lots of thrust, brio, buzzing bassoons and stirring brass. Intriguing alternative to the major mainstream orchestras.
I haven't heard Haselbock yet, but I agree - the early symphonies sound best (to my ears) with an HIP approach, which is why I'm partial to Emanuel Krivine - smallish orchestra, small venue, rather close recording perspective, with proper balance between strings and winds/brass. Too many "big band" recording submerge the winds in a haze of strings.
As you can see, there is a range of responsible opinion. It probably is my age, buy I would suggest that one seeking to appreciate these works should listen to Toscanini and Walter, and Klemperer.
It just depends on what you're after. Some which I like:
- Haitink/LSO (LSO Live) - Surprisingly taut, and unlike his more genial other recordings of the Beethoven symphonies. In fact, many listeners were taken by surprise with Haitink's LSO set - it really does pack a punch.
- Karajan/BPO (DG) - A wonderful combination of brio and tonal refinement. And as heard on the recent blu-ray remastering, the engineering is the best it's ever sounded. BTW, I don't like Karajan's later recordings of these works, because of DG's later engineering where one becomes very aware of microphones all over the place - the opposite of natural sound!
- Steinberg/Pittsburgh SO (Command - now HDTT) - Unfortunately, High Definition Tape Transfers has only number 2 available, but these are exciting performances in what, for its time (early 60's), was demo quality sound, and HDTT has done well with the remaster.
- Rajski/Polish Chamber PO (Tacet - blu-ray audio) - This recording MUST be heard in multichannel - it's a unique experience, putting you in the middle of the orchestra! Listeners may object to this kind of recording in principle - but hearing is believing IMHO!
- Reiner/CSO (RCA) - Number 1 only, unfortunately. A whiplash performance in golden age RCA Living Stereo. What's not to like?
- Skrowaczewski/Saarbrucken RSO (Oehms) - As one of the Amazon posters writes, "a more humane Szell"! ;-)
- Ansermet/OSR (Decca) - Another golden age of stereo recording, and, here, the wind players of the OSR actually behave themselves! ;-)
- Leibowitz/RPO (Chesky reissue) - The RPO holds on for dear life, but hold on they do, and the result is thunder and lightening music making!
- Kempe/Munich PO (EMI) - Who is the best exemplar of the central European tradition in this works. I pick Kempe, but Bohm and Masur are also wonderful.
So many more I could have chosen, and so many more I haven't even heard! Getting to know these great works is like a musical pilgrimage, and you're the only one who can make that pilgrimage for yourself! ;-)
I flipped a coin and bought the Vänskä cycle and only bought the Haitink 2 & 6, but I like the Haitink so much I think I'll end up buying the set. As far as I can recall the first cycles out on surround were Barenboim (Teldec) and Abbado on DVD-A and Karajan on SACD (both DG/BPO). I didn't have any strong opinions at the time, but I gravitated strongly to Abbado and perhaps like 1 & 2 even better on the 2001 performance in Rome on Blu-ray. Perhaps this preference helps to explain why I also like the Pentatone SACD by Sir Neville Marriner and the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields of Symphonies 1&2 (although quad is hardly my preference).
Speaking of preferences in surround sound, I really like Tacet's approach with chamber music, but have no inclination to listen to symphonies that way. Anyway, I apologize in advance of any flames for my praise of these lightweight treatments.
Your comment about Abbado's 2001 performances on blu-ray is consistent with what I've heard from others previously. Somehow, I never got around to hearing those blu-ray performances. I sometimes feel that Abbado's DVD-A performances are a bit light, and DG sounds as if they were still using lots of microphones at that time - however, this impression can be somewhat mitigated with a boost to the rear channels, which adds more reverb and disperses the sound better (at least IMHO). This was one feature that really sold me on the advantages of multichannel recordings - the ability to reduce the effects of audible (and primitive-sounding) multi-microphone engineering.
I've never heard the Marriner recordings, but I do have another Pentatone recording of No. 1:
These quad recordings are also excellent, as are Davis' performances, as you might expect. I believe that there are many, many recordings from the 70's which were recorded in quad and which we'll never hear that way. Too bad - but I appreciate the fact that Pentatone has made at least some of them available in their original quad format.
I ordered that Sir Colin Davis disc at Presto Classical on sale for $14.80 Canadian along with the Haitink set that I already intended to order.
. . . you were a multichannel aficionado too! Probably not too many of us on these forums: you, me, Kal, Fitzcaroldo. . .
As Ivan303 is fond of pointing out I often disappear for a few years, but I've been a hi rez multichannel enthusiast since the first DVD-A discs were released circa 2000.
Us MCh guys need to stick together! ;-)
that sounds interesting!
This set has excellent sound on SACD, despite being recorded in the dry Barbican. The performances are lively, not stolid (as some people expect from Haitink), and beautifully played.
I can't say it's the "best" because there are so many good recordings--e.g., I like Toscanini/BBC, but it's from ~1939 and some people won't be able to tolerate the antique sound.
Sounded like the mics were placed in a different county. Couldn't enjoy or make any judgments regarding balances, emphasis, dynamics, orchestral or individual's tone/timbre with sound that bad.
Hope whatever Toscanini you're listening to has better sound.
Historical performances aren't for everyone. I started my interest in classical music in the late 1950s with lots of 78s and mono LPs. I'm able to "listen through" poor sound if the performance is interesting or moves me. So my first exposure to Beethoven 1 was that Toscanini/BBC recording (1937, not 1939 as I wrote by mistake), which I had because someone donated it to a thrift store, my grandmother volunteered there, and I got to take home records that had been there for a while without a purchaser. I don't care about the sound, it's as exciting a performance as I've ever heard:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x1GVKxAwt8
If poor sound on historical recordings bothers you, then you have dealt yourself out of listening to fantastic performances by Rachmaninoff, Busoni, Mengelberg, Furtwaengler, Koussevitsky, Flagstad, Kipnis, Pinza, Melchior, Schnabel, Fischer, Ponselle...the list goes on. But if the poor sound bothers you, there are good alternatives with better sound.
When I started listening to classical music, performances that were 50 years old came from wax cylinders and the like. Nowadays, there are lots of performances from 50 years ago that sound as good as or better than newly made classical recordings.
my exposure to Toscanini's Beethoven was similar, too.
I picked up his *famous* Nine Symphonies box set for a whooping 50 cents at the thrift store.
Didn't know much about his work at all but just for a grin, I decided to spin just one record... Ended up I went through the whole box set in one day! I didn't realise how listening to Beethoven can be so much fun. Even the terribly over-played 6th sounded fresh.
I even enjoy Caruso's old acoustic recording from the turn of the century.
I just feel however that there were a number of conductors who championed the Toscanini approach to these works (not slavishly of course), but who received far, far better engineering than Toscanini did. Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't ever listen to Toscanini - but I'd be reluctant to recommend the Toscanini recordings to a newbie in this repertoire.
and certainly not for audiophiles. But perhaps should be listened to within a context relative to how they are played today by today's artist. Perhaps then, deeper appreciation for the musicians or the composers can emerge?
I am bringing a millennial friend to a Beethoven Symphony 7 concert (Vanska/Minesota) next year. She does not own CDs or vinyl. Her main intake for music is Apple Music. She knows the name Beethoven. She does not know the tunes. Never heard the 7th. I am going to recommend several current recording as well as add Toscanini in the mix to see how she hears it. :)
To listen to the Toscanini record I bought and claim it was a great or even interesting performance would be ludicrous IMO. About the only thing you could hear well was the tempos. The link you provided has sound that is MUCH better.I have a cd of Duke Ellington's band that was recorded in the '20's and the sound beats the shitta the Toscanini I had (which IIRC was a performance in NYC), so it isn't just about the age of a recording.
Edits: 08/02/17 08/02/17
The sound is still poor because they transferred it from a cracked and repaired 78s plus went through an auto restoration filter. :(
How would I know what Toscanini record you bought? I have no opinion.
The NBC. Symphony ones recorded in Studio 8H (current home of Saturday Night Live) have no room reverb at all. The Carnegie Hall recordings are usually much better.
JVC XRCD24 of Elgar Enigma Variation recorded at Carnegie Hall on Dec. 1951. A single mike dangling 16 ft. above Maestro's head. (I can hear him breathing.)
This is the one JVC team flew out to BMG Tape Archive in PA to get a hold of the original 76cm/sec. tape.
They mention subsequent LP releases, even the same catalogue number, RCA apparently applied different EQ to *enhance* the sound. Quite often with bright steely upper ends and somewhat boosted bottom. (I can hear this in my various Toscanini reissue LPs ) Interestingly they note the condition of the tape is much better than what's been reported. No dropouts nor damage throughout, they did not have to do any reconstruction for the reissues. Apparently they have been kept well all these years. And you are right in that all the ones released in this series, they only picked from the Carnegie recording ( no live broadcast: they recorded some of the program AFTER the live broadcast from the Carnegie ) rather than Studio 8H due to better hall acoustics. Also, Sony's Andreas Mayer ( a terrific engineer who's done 'A State of Wonder' Glenn Gould CD as well as recent analogue vinyl reissue of the same title ) and Sony studio's archive staffs have helped them select the right master tape.
,
Even with a high hiss background noise, it holds tension much better than Karajan/BPO. A tad opaque and old-fashioned but faster paced salt of the Earth. But the fidelity is very challenging even for me. I reckon later NBC @ Carnegie set would be much better and I am guessing it would be move vivid and livelier than this Philly set. ( this is relatively legato for Toscanini and does not have his usual whiplash style )
.,
The Carnegie, on DaCapo lp, IIRC is not as immediate-sounding.
■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : April 16,1936 Carnegie Hall
Orchestra : New York Philharmonic■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : March 4, 1947 RECORDING SESSIONS ( CARNEGIE HALL )■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : December 2, 1947 RECORDING SESSIONS ( CARNEGIE HALL )
Orchestra : NBC SO■ Symphonic Poem "La Mer"
Recording Date & Place : Feb.14,1953 Carnegie Hall
Orchestra : NBC SOI am not sure which recording DeCapo used but recording quality varies.
Edits: 08/05/17 10/09/17
. . . with K2 processing! ;-)
They only released handful out of his vast catalogue.
nt
You need to get his later 1951 recording on the XRCD CD. The same spirit heard in the prior recording is still here for the most part.
Personally I love his NYP version but I agree fidelity could be a lot better. :(
nt
I agree with Rick. Some places I just can't go.
Fifty years ago today is only 1967. Lots of good recordings from the late 50s would fit even before that.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Excellent sonics, begin together, play all the notes, end together; the rest is commentary.Szell/Cleveland/Epic on LP for one.
Edits: 08/02/17
On CD:Where sound is a major concern, Wand/NDR comes out on top in both symphonies. Jochum/RCO is also excellent in both but with sound that's less full.
Where some thinness or stridency in high violins is not a major concern, Monteux/VPO, Mackerras/SCO and Karajan ('62) are all excellent in #1.
Barenboim/SB is very good in #2 with excellent sound. Karajan ('77) is perhaps even better but with good r/t great sound.
With, again, high violins that are a bit thin, Szell/Cleveland and Norrington/LCP are very good in the later symphony.
IMS, IMHO.
Edits: 08/02/17 08/02/17 08/02/17
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