|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
69.180.152.83
Someone below suggested a thread on this subject, so I thought, why not? It's likely my opinion will not reflect the views of a majority of jazz fans, especially those who listen a lot to jazz from the period when he was active, but, if it turns out to be somewhat controversial, so much the better.
I'll start by conceding that Mobley was obviously highly regarded by many front line leaders, including people like Art Blakey, Horace Silver and virtually every other musician who led a session for the Blue Note-and Prestige to a lesser extent-label in the 1950s and 1960s. (All of them by the way far more musically sophisticated than this writer.)
That said, I think he was overrated then and continues to be as witnessed by the flood of reissues of his own recordings as a leader. I've never found his work especially challenging compared to a number of contemporaneous saxophone players, particularly John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Eric Dolphy, Jackie McLean, Sam Rivers and Sonny Rollins.
Clearly not everyone has to be a genius or an innovator to produce enjoyable music and for me therein lies the problem with Mobley's outsized reputation and popularity. After my comments thus far it may be surprising for me to say that I find his work mostly enjoyable and quite listenable...but for me it's not much more than that. I'm also bothered by the sameness of so much of his output. That probably doesn't distinguish him from other fairly popular players of his era-Tina Brooks or Junior Cook anyone?-but as far as I can tell, none of them approach Mobley in popularity or record sales.
Of course, part of this is that Mobley was ubiquitous, both as a sideman and as a leader. I'm not at all certain what explains this. Did he readily fit in on any hard bop session? Was he cooperative and willing to do whatever was required? Did his mere presence enhance sales? Was he simply always available? Or was his music just nice and likeable?
Whatever the reason(s), he was and is much more popular* (or so it seems) than many other deserving players from the hard bop era: Dexter Gordon, George Coleman, Booker Ervin, Charlie Rouse, Joe Henderson, Harold Land, for example.
*Of course, when discussing popularity in a jazz context, we have to be mindful that revenues generated by a big seller can get lost in the petty cash of a label of any size.
Follow Ups:
True, Mobley wasn't an innovator. But he sounds damn good on every record he played on, and that's a lotta records playing with an amazing array of excellent musicians, and a wide variety of music. No matter whose recording he's on Mobley is never a weak link. I own almost every one of his own LP's and dig them all. He wrote some nice tunes too.
Really don't know why you think there's more emphasis on Mobley reissues than other Bluenote artists. They've reissued damn near the whole catalogue, actually including plenty that wasn't released when recorded.
I for one was very happy to get reissues of highly enjoyable Mobley recordings like Hi Voltage (w/McLean, Blue Mitchell, John Hicks, Cranshaw & Higgins) and some that AFAIK hadn't been released when Hank was alive like A Slice Of The Top (w/Lee Morgan, James Spaulding, Kiane Zawadi, Howard Johnson, McCoy, Reggie Workman, Billy Higgins). I mention those specific recordings because the music on 'em is certainly different, as are the groups playing on 'em. I don't find the sameness to Mobley's recordings that you mention. His playing doesn't dramatically change over the years, but it evolves within his style.
One of the things I go by in assessing jazz musicians is --- how recognizable is his/her sound? I recognize Mobley very quickly. His sound is unique. The combination of his tone/timbre/articulation and his rhythmic concept are instantly identifiable. Likewise some of the other non-innovators you mentioned, like Dexter, Tina Brooks, Charlie Rouse, Joe Henderson. To me, that's important and meaningful. Johnny Hodges wasn't an innovator either, but what about his SOUND?!
Its cool with me if you don't put Mobley in the "pantheon". Me either. But if you only listen to innovators you'll miss a helluva lot of really good music. Only a very small percentage of musicians in any idiom really deserve the lable "innovator".
"Hey, yer dissin' one of my faves." Not really. I find Mobley quite listenable and thoroughly enjoyable, as at least implied in my original post.
"...he sounds damn good on every record he played on." And to my ears, pretty much the same.
"I don't find the sameness to Mobley's recordings that you mention." It isn't the sameness of the recordings and/or the personnel, it's the sameness of his solos.
"But if you only listen to innovators you'll miss a helluva lot of really good music." Absolutely agree. That's why I have thousands of LPs and CDs by just about every jazz musician one can name and thoroughly enjoy them...including Hank Mobley.
"Only a very small percentage of musicians in any idiom really deserve the lable "innovator". Indisputable.
"Really don't know why you think there's more emphasis on Mobley reissues than other Bluenote artists." This is probably just because there seem to be so many compared to almost anyone else. I haven't actually counted them, so I could be wrong.
Miles at Carnegie Hall.
Wynton feeds him some nice substitute changes on a blues, and Hank eats 'em up.
Also, the Original Jazz Messengers, with Nica's Dream, Hank's Symphony, Ecaroh, End of a Love Affair, w/Donald Byrd.
Possibly my first Jazz Album, and still my Fav.
"Also, the Original Jazz Messengers, with Nica's Dream, Hank's Symphony, Ecaroh, End of a Love Affair, w/Donald Byrd.
Possibly my first Jazz Album, and still my Fav."
We're in complete agreement about this recording. It wasn't my first LP-that was Brown & Roach Incorporated-but it wasn't far behind.
/
I am still going through Mobley's catalogu expanding to the album he played as a side man. ( seriously I would have never bought Elmo Hope album if it weren't for Hank ) :/ I still don't own any from Debut Records ( Max Roach Quartet ) or Savoy releases. Luckily plenty of Blue Note reissues. ( that's how I got to know his work ) A big band 'A slice of the top' is an interesting one. I remember liking Tynor's piano how pretty it was.Another thing I noticed about Mobley's playing ( you mention Gordon whome seems to be many's darlin' ), in spite his *easy going relaxed style, to me, it never sounds *loungy*. Maybe because his sense of timing is impeccable. His tunes are always easy to follow for me. Wonder if it's related to what you meany by *rhythmic concept*?
Can you elaborate?Currently listening:
Love this *I should care* with Walter Bishop on piano rather than his later Blue Note recording of the same tune with Wynton Kelly.
Mobley's ending riff on this tune is just gorgeous.
Edits: 07/22/17
Hank had a light easy on the ear sound and music. Like I said below, he was a contemporary of Tubby Hayes, but I preferred Tubby. Hank may have recorded a bunch of sessions to feed his habit. Nice player, but I prefer less popular players like Sam Rivers, Charlie Rouse, Booker Ervin, Joe Henderson, etc.
GEO, no artist on record labels like Bluenote or Prestige had the authority to decide when to record/release an album. Lottsa jazz musicians went through a junkie period. They didn't wake up one Tuesday, look at their nearly empty stash and say to themselves "Uh oh, I better call Alfred Lion and tell him I want to record on Friday." in order to get cash for smack and expect Alfred Lion to just say "Fine, I'll set up the session". Do you think Jackie McLean did that?
I really can't understand why you and some others think Mobley was more popular than Joe Henderson - or Dexter for that matter. I don't have any stats in front of me, but I seriously doubt Hank recorded more than Henderson, and no way did he make as much money as either Dexter or Joe.
"...no artist on record labels like Bluenote or Prestige had the authority to decide when to record/release an album."
Perhaps not authority, but that didn't necessarily stop them from bugging the hell out of the label owners/producers to do recordings. According to Gene Lees, who was very close to Bill Evans, the pianist constantly tried to wheedle sessions at Riverside to generate cash to satisfy his habit. Frankly, I don't have any information to support the idea that Mobley did that, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.
It's clear that Blue Note had a sizable catalog of unreleased recordings that didn't see the light of day until years after the sessions went down. I have no idea what the reasons were for that situation. It may simply have been that there were quality concerns or that they just had too many similar recordings on the market already. (Obviously not all of these were Mobley's.) And apparently some of it was related to the sale of the label. But this does make me wonder about how at least some of the sessions came about in the first place.
P.S. Not to get all nitpicky on you, but it is Blue Note, not Bluenote.
Considering that most of Blue Note's unreleased albums were very good - Mobley's A Slice Of The Top and Third Season for example - I gotta wonder if the label was saving some of 'em to capitalize on when musicians died.
That seems to be what Miles thought about Columbia. He had a long battle with that label over unreleased recordings. He refused to record new stuff until they released what they had in the can, and ended up changing labels.
I seem to recall reading somewhere that the label thought at least some of the recordings were not typical of the artist and therefore would not get a positive reception. And, too, I think there were those that were a whole lot like others and were held back for later release. But when Lion sold the label-to Liberty if I remember correctly-that company really screwed things up and the plans for later release were never followed.
other previously unreleased Blue Notes, including stuff by Lee Morgan and Jackie McLean among others.
I'm sure that's true, but there were quite a few that didn't get released until Capitol bought the label as I recall. But I'm relying on memory here, which these days is sometimes faulty.
Let's just be glad it happened, however it did.
I am a big proponent of Blue Note. This is still a thriving label under the helm of Don Was. As above, smack, was very relevant in the 50-60's among the Jazz players. You would have been hard-pressed to find a player that did not use it? Really took a toll on Chet Baker and Art pepper.
Dexter made his way abroad, in the EU. After international success, and alot of it, he came back to the U.S.A.
Joe has a very extensive catalog, a strong body of work spanning decades.
If Coltrane had lived to date, we can only imagine his outcome as well?
I didn't think it worked like that. I was just wondering if Hank was just more or less on call more often. Not that he would have the power to arrange a session so he could make a score. I was going to look at his output vs say Joe Henderson to see if he had more LPs. He started his career a few years earlier I believe also. Jackie McLean put out a lot of LPs too. And yes, lots of guys had habits, unfortunately.
"Hank may have recorded a bunch of sessions to feed his habit."
I deliberately avoided this idea in my original post even though the thought had occurred to me. His addiction was apparently widely known and may have been a factor in his being so readily available for recording sessions. On the other hand he clearly managed to maintain his ability to perform at a pretty high level-or at least at a professional level good enough to be desirable as a leader and a sideman.
Yes. Absolutely. I was just wondering if that contributed to the number of LPs he put out. I like Hank. I have almost all of his BN albums. Early on, he was one of my favorites. Far Away Lands was my first Mobley LP.
well, you see I disagree.
I love Mobley better than Coltrane. Perhaps Mobley was not innovative as 'trane ( and this is probably reason why hi name doesn't show up much ) but as I listen to his stuff more I really love the way he plays. Perhaps his stuff is more accessible than *intellectual* Coltrane. I think I have almost all of his records but particularly later ones are hard to digest. :/ ( guess I am not a big fan of free jazz )
There is a Blue Note album where both players play together and it's fascinating to hear them in the same set. They sure have a different style.The only horn player I place way above anyone is Charley Parker.
I also enjoy his compositions. Again these are not earth shattering game changing tunes but they all have a nice lyrical flow and enjoyable. Not all good music have to be *challenging* to listen to. I also marvel at the economy of his notes. Never fussy nor overworked, he knows just when to stop. :)
I am not a hard core jazz fan but *Remember* always put a smile on my face.
There is such an ease and grace with a happy bopping along groove.
Hank Mobley (tenor saxophone); Wynton Kelly (piano); Paul Chambers (bass); Art Blakey (drums)
Anyways, thank you for starting this thread. I am curious to see how it develops. :)
Edits: 07/22/17 07/22/17 07/22/17
"...but particularly later ones are hard to digest."
No argument there. He in fact began to lose me about 1965, although I must say I respect his never ending quest for new avenues to explore.
- sit alone in your listening room, get a nice scotch and play his Interstellar Space from 1967. That album scared the shit out of me in 1974 :), but now it's one of my all- time favorite jazz albums.
You'll lose nothing, but what you gain could be life-changing;-)
Sampled the CD on Amazon, bought it. Thanks for the tip. Which Scotch do you recommend by the way? Or perhaps for this session I should break open my 100 proof fifth of Old Forester?
Try I.W.Harper 15 bourbon or Yamazaki 12 whisky
While we're way off subject, I'm going to recommend a bourbon from Iowa of all places (but think about corn). Cedar Ridge Bourbon is as good as any I've ever had. I don't know how widely distributed it is, but if you can find it, do give it a try. And as prices for really top shelf whiskeys go these days, it's a relative bargain.
Cedar Ridge is a great bourbon. Thanks for mentioning it. The good booze prices are completely out of control. Remind me of audio cablies' pricing policy.
Johnnie Walker Blue Label was around $200, 10 years ago.
For the fun of it, do a Google search for current prices on Pappy Van Winkle
Getting back to Jazz, Coltrane never slowed down up until the day he died.
If he was not playing, recording, he spent his time very wisely- practicing.
I cant' believe Japanese Whiskey is an in-thing now. The last time when I tried to order noone had it in stock. ( or told they just flying out of the door )
My booze of the day:
I did not know that OR distilled bourbon?
erik-
how do you like the Yamazaki ?
Very smooth, interesting aftertaste. Definitely worth trying. Don't use any ice with it.
.
😁
Nice!
;-)
Mobley makes beautiful music in Soul Station and I listen to it regularly but there's little of the art found in the equally beautiful but far more interesting sounds of Cannonbal Adderly in 'Somethin' Else'. That despite Miles dronings to shoot heroin by.
Dolphy's squeaks and squawks, Coltrane's flights of high-pitched Gnats in your ear, and other 'Cool Man' noises posing as "art" eludes me.
Give me the spareness of Basie over the shut up already endless arpeggios of Peterson.
If you want truly inventive, outstanding rythym and music to take you to new levels of excitement, Illinois Jacquet.
But that's just me.
He isn't given the same respect as some of his Blue Note peers, but that
does not make him any less enjoyable. Lou Donaldson is in that same boat -
a fine player who doesn't get the respect he reserves.
Always good to see a fellow Jazz Hound- suretyguy.
Mobley was great as a leader and sideman, similar to Coltrane.
Trane was a great innovator, composer and performer, while Mobley always was a good well-respected mainstreamer. I doubt if anybody would seriously argue about it. I mean I love Mobley, but he ain't Coltrane.
Jazz is about being an Individual.
Couldn't agree more.
"Mobley never was like Coltrane," I must say Erik I have to agree with you. Would you like to compare and contrast Mobley's "Autumn Leaves" with John Coltrane's 'Leaves and Snoop Dogi Dogi's or save it for when we jazz people can be at the same status level as the Hip Hoppers or Hip Poppers, whatever ?? T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Edits: 07/22/17
"...save it for when we jazz people can be at the same status level as the Hip Hoppers or Hip Poppers, whatever ?? T456"
If you substitute "popularity" for "status", I'm in total agreement...I think.
Well, okay, but you may not be surprised if I suggest that I find the content of your second sentence highly debatable.
Suretyguy, I think you are full of... Hank Mobley is the great middle weight fighter of the saxophone. Just compare Mobley's "Autumn Leaves" to the f-ing light weight "Autumn Leaves" 's of Stan Getz, Ben Webster,Paul Desmond, , Miles Davis, Nat Adderley, Tal Farlow Barney Kessel................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. This could take up the first month or two on our new jazz forum site. Either that or have the classical guys begging to kick us out! T456
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
Edits: 07/22/17
Nothing I said was intended to really disparage Mobley. It's just that to my ears his work is overrated and over-represented in the number of recordings and reissues of those recordings. I don't know that he was a "great" (a much overused word) middleweight. After all Sugar Ray Robinson was without doubt a truly great middleweight (boxer, for those too young to remember) and I'm not at all certain Mobley stands up to that sort of comparison.
Historically, Coltrane worked very hard during the years leading up to 1961.
This would be the year for Coltrane, as he, found his bearing, gained his footing and took off leaving his contemporaries in the dust. As a matter of fact, Coltrane did not slow down from the years 1961-67 upon his death.
"As a matter of fact, Coltrane did not slow down from the years 1961-67 upon his death." As a matter of fact fantja , JC did slow down during that period. He played many tunes at a ballad tempo. If we had a jazz forum I could take all my belocosocity out of this forum. We could really duke it out over there.
"The Borg is the ultimate user. They're unlike any threat your Federation has ever faced."
- Q, 2365
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: