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24.191.20.21
In Reply to: RE: Sure - but banality is banality, even if it's intentional and cynical posted by Chris from Lafayette on March 27, 2017 at 11:18:14
I'm not going to try to convince you to jump in. And no two of us have the same opinion as to what is worthy and what is worthless. Anyone who has been to an auction knows that.
Follow Ups:
We've already been through the "de gustibus" part of the discussion. But I do take some solace in the fact that you and jdaniel at least recognize that there IS banality in Shostakovitch's music. And to make my point for the last time in this discussion (I hope - LOL!), no amount of non-musical justification can really excuse it, or make it into something great - at least IMHO.
for me, when it comes to pure intellectual brilliance, perceptiveness and a keen musical ear, Shostakovich is second only to Stravinsky among all Russian composers, and orders of magnitude ahead of the others. Whether those attributes add up to "greatness" or whether you look for something more, or something else, is entirely up to you.
His music puts the banality, the oppression and the cruelty he saw in his society into sharp focus. He offers no escape or respite, even in his comedy. Look at the story of Lieutenant Kije and the inept and craven military administrators he ridicules so sharply and effectively. Nobody else could or would do quite the same thing so well.
And indeed, that's a piece that shows the difference between a real master (Prokofiev) and an also-ran (Shostakovitch), who, for reasons I can't fathom, does have his followers. ;-)
Both brilliant satires. I'm a big Prokofiev fan as well, of course.
Although the sub-titles seem to be in Japanese in the uTube performance linked below, the sung text is full of praise to Stalin, "the father of nations" and "the great agronomer" - sometimes the work is performed with an expurgated text, with the Stalin references removed! Of course, Prokofiev wrote "Zdravitsa" or "[Birthday] Toast [to Stalin]" which Richter claimed was one Prokofiev's very best works. (I don't know if I agree with that!)
Here's Temirkanov leading a joint Japanese-Russian performance in 2006, by which time Leiferkus had a pretty bad wobble:
EVERYONE, (except the authorities) and none more than DDS, considered SOTF to be complete crud. Now, this thread is likely done for me, but I'd like to make one more comment. I just finished listening to the Eighth Symphony. The "relevee' " last movement, after the slow passacaglia, is one of the most marvelous and joyful pieces of music I've ever heard. It wouldn't know banality if banality bit it on the butt. Thanks all, great thread!
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
The really funny thing is, Prokofiev had the same flair for Russian-style anti-authoritarian satire that Shostakovich had. The difference being, Shostakovich had that trademark serious, dark, gloomy personality. Prokofiev, though every bit as much of a musical genius, was reportedly an immature, childlike, boorish brat, not unlike Mozart. His music on the whole is much less harsh and easier to stomach. Ed. I find the 2nd and 3rd symphonies of Shostakovich hard to stomach, especially the 2nd. But those are youthful works.
The politics or textual setting of these composers means little to me. Sure, Lieutenant Kije and Alexander Nevsky are great, classic movies. Peter and the Wolf is a great children's story written by Prokofiev himself when he was dissatisfied with the story originally proposed to him. The Nose is also a great classic. But that alone doesn't make the music great or meaningful.
I should know all about Lieutenant Kije, since I played the solo flute part in my college orchestra. Oh well, advancing age, you know.
Edits: 03/29/17
nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
. . . then what was Temirkanov doing performing it in 2006 - and in Japan no less? Inquiring minds want to know.
(BTW, Temirkanov's CD of the work has been one of the cornerstones of my Shostakovitch collection for years - no joke!)
And what can't there ever be an album for Shostakovich only, without Prokofiev? That just adds to my middle-aged confusion.
Fortunately, there is no law that says you have to listen to every last piece by a composer, even one of the greats. I certainly keep that in mind for Beethoven.
OK, I admit I bought that CD for the Prokofiev "On Guard for Peace" cantata, not the Shostakovitch. However, this CD was in fact my SECOND purchase of "Song of the Forests", which I also had on LP, back in the days when I had an LP of another great, important work by Shostakovitch, "The Sun Shines Over Our Motherland".
I say again: if any music by Shostakovitch achieves true greatness, these cantatas are the ones!
(BTW, I'm actually surprised by how many recordings of "Song of the Forests" are available these days!)
I'm glad SOMEONE likes Stalinist music. DDS held his nose composing these.
Had to post ONE last time to thread. Promise.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
nt.
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
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