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In Reply to: RE: Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto No. 3 is REALLY hard (for the orchestra!) posted by Chris from Lafayette on November 06, 2015 at 20:07:32
First, I have around 200 concert recordings of the Rach 3 (not commercial recordings). And I have heard/seen it performed many times in person. So that includes regional orchestras and community orchestras in which orchestra members are not paid. Frankly, I've heard some pretty crappy bands in my day. But I've never heard/seen a conductor pull the "Praise the Lord" stunt. I just hope the pianist was not wearing one of those ass-baring dresses, because ..... sin! (haha, just kidding, I know who you are referring to).
But the reality is, all of Rachmaninoff's orchestral music really is pretty hard to play. Orchestra members have, quite often, remarked how much they have to practice segments because they are so hard. Most people listening to Rachmaninoff symphonies or concertos are hearing just the big tune. Yes, the big melodies are captivating and memorable. But if one really listens to the underlying sections, the lines beneath the big tunes -- that is where the magic of Rachmaninoff occurs. Complex arrangements that challenge the average musician.
Last season, I attended a performance of Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony performed by a touring Russian orchestra. This music is in their blood, right? What could go wrong, right? OMG! The middle two movements were a muddled mess. However (and this is the crux of typical live performances) they nailed the finale. The audience went crazoid! Because, hey, it really is a magically exciting finale! But the rest -- argh! There is a reason the drunken Glazunov conducting an under-practiced orchestra completely mangled the premier of the 1st Symphony -- and why so many commercial recordings are a mess.
The point is, Rachmaninoff is really underestimated. Many people are so **tired** of hearing the Rach3 and other Rachmaninoff music. But those who listen beneath the big tunes, who listen to the complexity and beauty of the orchestral underpinnings, discover which conductors are worth a shit and which orchestras can really play.
If you need a cue from the conductor or soloist, you can be sure you are in the dead zone of classical music.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Follow Ups:
I've had the impression that Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony was very hard to play..... It seems to bring out the limitations of the orchestra, even a good one.
When it comes to executing the work, nothing comes close to the Frank Shipway/Cleveland Orchestra performance in 1980. Take away that performance, I'd take Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra.
The best orchestral performance of Rach's Third Concerto was also conducted by Eugene Ormandy..... With the New York Philharmonic and Vlad Horowitz in that (in)famous 1978 performance at Carnegie Hall. Still my favorite performance of Rachmaninoff's Third Concerto. The patchwork job notwithstanding.
IMHO it's a bit dry and/or expedient. (But to be fair, Rachmaninoff's performances of his own works tend to be that way as well--not very indulgent.)
I got off the Symphony #2 merry go round after listening to Weller's on Decca and Slatkin's surprisingly lovely performance on Vox. (Both Lp's, of course.) Slatkin puts a little more meat on the 1st symphony's protracted ending with some very carefully-balanced voicing.
For the 3rd, Previn's on EMI is a current favorite. IMHO he keeps the adrenaline levels up without stinting on the lyrical sections. The LSO strings are particularly voluptuous. Strangely enough, I've never gotten into Previn's more famous 2nd.
All that said, I have an EMI box set of Mid-century Russian performances on Melodiya and the home teams are in a class of their own, esp. with regard to rhythm.
> > 200 concert recordings of the Rach 3 < <
Impossible. There aren't even that many. Are they private ones? Regardless, the mind boggles. You almost defy belief. "Amphissa", eh? I'm going to remember you.
> > "Praise the Lord" stunt. I just hope the pianist was not wearing one of those ass-baring dresses, because ..... sin! < <
Hilarious.
> > Rachmaninoff's orchestral music really is pretty hard to play. Orchestra members have, quite often, remarked how much they have to practice segments because they are so hard. < <
No wonder Mahler drilled the NYPO so hard - and impressed Rachmaninoff so well by doing that.
> > Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony < <
That's an under appreciated minor masterpiece. It's a wonderful piece - I'm still surprised that people don't really like it.
Here's something nobody seems to have realized about it [again - more incredible insights from me]: if you've really listened to the piece, you can't help but notice how different it is from all of the rest of his music which we all know to death. As you know, that's cause it was compsed before that tragedy that changed his life profoundly. This was Rach The Fearless. Note how bold and daring the music is. He never composed that way again - not even in the Dances. Had that first performance been a success, we'd have a much more aggresive Rachmaninoff. Of course, likely no 2nd or 3rd, but probably many more numerous and vaster symphonies.
N. Thelman, SSI
"Impossible. There aren't even that many. Are they private ones? Regardless, the mind boggles. You almost defy belief. "Amphissa", eh? I'm going to remember you."Well, no, not impossible. There are actually 200 or more commercial recordings. But Rach3 gets played every year by many dozens of orchestras around the world. Radio broadcasts are plentiful, especially by European and Asian orchestras, since classical music is broadcast/streamed constantly in Europe and Asia, but also U.S. orchestras. Plus there are many historical broadcast recordings. I've been collecting those broadcast recordings for decades.
As for never composing that way again and the unsuccess of the first performance, are you referring to the 3rd piano concerto or the 1st symphony? The premier of the Rach3 piano concerto was successful and has been a part of the core repertoire since it was first oerformed. It was the 1st Symphony many years earlier that got panned. Sorry if my comments about the 1st symphony performance confused the discussion.
And his later works pushed past all his previous works, to wit the Dances 3rd movement and the 3rd symphony. He said that he had difficulty with the newer directions in music, because his brain always resolved into melodies. But the 3rd symphony and the last movement of the Symphonic Dances did move into new territory for him.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Edits: 11/07/15
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