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Madeline and I had dinner with a pianist friend last weekend (no name here to protect the innocent - you might be able to guess however - LOL!). You might imagine that being a touring professional pianist is the life of adventure and high art, as you perform the great concertos with the likes of the BPO, VPO, BSO, etc. But occasionally (and perhaps much more often than many would like to admit), you also perform with orchestras that no one has ever heard of. Such was the case with our friend, who performed the Rachmaninoff Third Piano Concerto with an orchestra in the Midwest. (I won't even say what state and city the orchestra is from - And BTW, our friend has a commercial recording of the Rachmaninoff Third.)
Another part of the set-up I want to emphasize is that the Rachmaninoff Third is practically failure proof. I've heard many many cavalier, middling performances of this work which still manage to evoke a crazed, delirious response from the audience, full of standing ovations and loud shouts and cheers - the work is that effectively written!
Another part of the context of this particular performance was that the conductor of this particular symphony orchestra (which was not an amateur orchestra BTW - they were at least semi-professional) had had, as her sole previous professional experience, a position as band director for another local group nearby. Finally, the last thing to know about the conductor is that she was deeply religious, and at the first meeting with our pianist friend, she insisted that they pray before having dinner at a local restaurant.
That's the background.
The actual rehearsals were complete disasters - it was hard even to know what to focus on with so many things wrong (not that the conductor knew what to do to fix them in any case), and there was some doubt as to whether they could even get through the piece without stopping. Nevertheless, our friend gallantly decided to go ahead with the performance.
Bad decision - although it didn't seem so at first, as the orchestra got through most of the work without drifting too far apart. But at the very end of the finale, where the orchestra plays alone (before the solo piano's very last entrance) while having to make an accelerando, disaster struck. The conductor could not keep the players together AT ALL, and there were about 15 or 20 different tempos going on at the same time! It was so bad that our friend literally could not tell when to come in. So he decided just to go for it, hoping to bring the orchestra along with him. No such luck: the chaos of 15 or 20 different tempos (among different sections fo the orchestra, or even within the same section!) continued for an agonizing half dozen or so more measures, when the conductor, sizing up the hopelessness of the situation, gave a HUGE cut off to everyone. Instantly, everyone (including our friend) stopped, regardless of whether they had reached the end or still had a couple of measure to go. This was followed by. . .
COMPLETE SILENCE
Not one person in the audience applauded. After another few agonizing seconds, the conductor sized up the situation again and wheeled around on the podium so that she was now facing the (silent!) audience. At once, she extended her arms, and, at the top of her lungs, shouted:
PRAISE THE LORD!
And with that, ONE person in the audience started clapping eventually followed by a couple of others. Finally, the audience figured out that it was OK to applaud now - which they did. A couple of people even shouted, "Bravo!".
As I said, the Rachmaninoff Third is failure proof!
Follow Ups:
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Chris, sorry for the poor expression of who the Lord is, and poor playing. Post hurts!
They got underwater, happens.
Frankly, I don't like the work, trying many different versions to train myself. Love Rach 2, though.
I bought the Lp because the cover attracted me. Ormandy was also a trusted, household name, at least in my household. I just found a sealed copy a couple of months ago and Horowitz' phrasing fit like an old, warm glove. RCA's live recording isn't bad.
I, too, didn't come to grips with the 3rd right away, esp. on the heels of the 2nd. The two ecstatic outbursts--early mov't 1 and mid-mov't 2--caught my ear right away but that was about it.
Rach's later, more "tart" sound came as a bit of an off-putting shock.
The only performance I've enjoyed as much since is Santiago Rodriquez' (sp). Great balance between the lush and the lively, IMHO. The usual suspects leave me cold.
What is imprinted on 15?
I have a pristine copy of the LP and also a CD if I remember.
Imprinting: when a first-time listener internalizes all the tempi and turns of phrase of a particular performance.
It's often hard to get used to other interpretations.
got it. Like me with some music, examples such as:
Szell and Mozart 35, 39
Szell and Egmont or B 3.
etc.
And as for the clinkers, isn't that a live performance? Now the new Rach gunslinger, Denis Matsuev, is coming to town this week to play the 2nd concerto and the Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. It will be broadcast live on WQXR on Thursday night. I'm sure he'll be giving us the 3rd soon enough.
Ed.: It's Daniil Trifonov, not Denis Matsuev -- hard to keep these wunderkinds apart!
Edits: 11/09/15 11/10/15
is this conductor was a woman.
It's already a good ol' boy in a conducting world, this kind of episode can't be good PR for advancement for female conductors.
Well, at least she did not burst out crying in public, tho.
in LA...don't like her frenetic energy, takes away. Even my teen violinist says so. But, she is promoted now.
Will appear with Hilary H in Vieuxtemps this year.
not much out there
I could not find her performance in video.
repost to you
Estonian conductor Anu Tali continues to set the standard for women orchestra directors!
odd that I could not find a single complete performance on YouTube.
A tiny sliver I got to see, she looked ok but not sure.
I have two of her CD's, and she's definitely the best woman conductor I've heard.
It looks as if the second of these CD's ("Swan Flight") is commanding a pretty hefty price right now on Amazon.
Hopefully she'll come to the CSO.
Even better if she and her entire orchestra visited!
/
I've heard many similar ones. A friend from my neighborhood growing up took a job with a second tier European orchestra with a less-than-stellar conductor and told me a similar story about its attempt to perform The Rite of Spring (maybe not quite as bad).
IME Rachmaninoff is as hard to play as Debussy or Ravel, but a big step lower in difficulty, especially in ensemble issues, than Stravinsky.
.
He was seeking a singing theme. He wanted something deliberately different from the prior concerto.
N. Thelman, SSI
...in which mov't do you find them most pronounced?
Nor any online source. What I know is the product of experience, conversation, reading, research, etc. The line of Rach info, if I recall correctly, came from a book on Rach which I'd read years ago, in addition to The New Grove Russian Masters 2. The book may still be in print and it is:
"Rachmanonoff", Michael Scott 2008, The History Press, Gloucestershire, GB
But, that little factoid is well known; not some esoteric detail. I'm sure it's also been quoted in Fanfare/AMG/Grammaphone reviews, liner notes, etc., which most of us have read.
Also, I didn't place my post as a reply to you, but as a general contribution to the thread. However, I see that I placed it incorrectly, which may've led to your misunderstanding.
N. Thelman, SSI
.
I once whistled the melody at work, roughly a decade ago..... Someone asked me what I was whistling, I said, "The initial melody of Rachmanininoff's Third Piano Concerto"..... The response was "What?!?!?".... Got a couple of strange looks as well.
: )
You are banging your head against a very very hard brick wall,
You are banging your head against a very very hard brick wall.
You're never going to break through, though
You're dealing with some very thick stuff, so
I'd quit, though it is your call!
Edits: 11/08/15
In case you haven't realized, we're living in a dumbass rock n roll* world. You may search my prior posts for my unflagging condemnation of it.
*I use that idiotic name [apropos for idiotic so-called music] to include all pop-rock noise, from cRap to death metal, and not excluding cowntry.
N. Thelman, SSI
"In case you haven't realized, we're living in a dumbass rock n roll* world. You may search my prior posts for my unflagging condemnation of it."
There's nothing wrong with rock-n-roll.... Nothing at all..... The world we're living in now is prefabricated, Auto-Tune-infested Hell.....
I kind of have fun seeing reactions from people when I bring up a piece of music that I know they have never heard of. (I'll walk up to someone, holding a pen like a baton, and say, "Beethoven's Eroica..... Ready?? ...." Last time I did this, the response was, "What's an Eroica?" ..... ) It's also kind of sad..... People ask me why classical music concerts are attended by mainly old people.... I answer, because the media culture has conditioned our younger people to either ignore it or hate it. For reasons that are beyond stupid.
Todd K wrote: "People ask me why classical music concerts are attended by mainly old people.... I answer, because the media culture has conditioned our younger people to either ignore it or hate it. For reasons that are beyond stupid."
Cleveland Orchestra audiences have become overall much younger recently, due to a discount program for students:
http://www.wqxr.org/#!/story/can-cleveland-really-attract-countrys-youngest-orchestra-audience/
Also, under 18's coming with their families are free:
http://www.clevelandorchestra.com/tickets/under-18s-free-for-families/
Other orchestra might do well to followm suit. This is a better approach than pandering to young adults by bringing in hip-hop stars, as they did in Seattle:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QtwIwAGoVChMIyIqZ4MmByQIVD8JjCh1O3g6R&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dw59e20ijOpE&usg=AFQjCNFpT_K-SbFM7XE01ldLNwbX5L7P-A&sig2=e67aCKFitMHPez5y7mxb4A
I like this "glass-half-full" attitude..... [;
That's a really funny story! For those who are not really aware, though, it must in fairness be added that that last section of the concerto is indeed notoriously difficult to keep together, even for the best orchestras. In particular if the soloist is one of those who doesn't really care that there are other people on stage trying to play with him or her....many times this is not the orchestra's fault, as it is very easy for a bad conductor or soloist to train wreck it despite the very best efforts of the orchestra to hold it together.
But that said, I want to make it clear that I am not doubting Chris in the least. And I would also wholeheartedly agree with him that the piece is pretty much failure proof, in the sense he means. I also would bet that I know exactly which friend told Chris this story, too, LOL! If so, then he/she is NOT one of the bad ones, in fact he/she is quite well known for being very sensitive to what the orchestra is doing, and a truly great musical collaborator. And Chris, I would very much appreciate a private email about which conductor this is...I honestly have no idea who (including the orch.) this could be - certainly not an ICSOM or ROPA group, from your description.
First, I have around 200 concert recordings of the Rach 3 (not commercial recordings). And I have heard/seen it performed many times in person. So that includes regional orchestras and community orchestras in which orchestra members are not paid. Frankly, I've heard some pretty crappy bands in my day. But I've never heard/seen a conductor pull the "Praise the Lord" stunt. I just hope the pianist was not wearing one of those ass-baring dresses, because ..... sin! (haha, just kidding, I know who you are referring to).
But the reality is, all of Rachmaninoff's orchestral music really is pretty hard to play. Orchestra members have, quite often, remarked how much they have to practice segments because they are so hard. Most people listening to Rachmaninoff symphonies or concertos are hearing just the big tune. Yes, the big melodies are captivating and memorable. But if one really listens to the underlying sections, the lines beneath the big tunes -- that is where the magic of Rachmaninoff occurs. Complex arrangements that challenge the average musician.
Last season, I attended a performance of Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony performed by a touring Russian orchestra. This music is in their blood, right? What could go wrong, right? OMG! The middle two movements were a muddled mess. However (and this is the crux of typical live performances) they nailed the finale. The audience went crazoid! Because, hey, it really is a magically exciting finale! But the rest -- argh! There is a reason the drunken Glazunov conducting an under-practiced orchestra completely mangled the premier of the 1st Symphony -- and why so many commercial recordings are a mess.
The point is, Rachmaninoff is really underestimated. Many people are so **tired** of hearing the Rach3 and other Rachmaninoff music. But those who listen beneath the big tunes, who listen to the complexity and beauty of the orchestral underpinnings, discover which conductors are worth a shit and which orchestras can really play.
If you need a cue from the conductor or soloist, you can be sure you are in the dead zone of classical music.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
I've had the impression that Rachmaninoff's Second Symphony was very hard to play..... It seems to bring out the limitations of the orchestra, even a good one.
When it comes to executing the work, nothing comes close to the Frank Shipway/Cleveland Orchestra performance in 1980. Take away that performance, I'd take Eugene Ormandy/Philadelphia Orchestra.
The best orchestral performance of Rach's Third Concerto was also conducted by Eugene Ormandy..... With the New York Philharmonic and Vlad Horowitz in that (in)famous 1978 performance at Carnegie Hall. Still my favorite performance of Rachmaninoff's Third Concerto. The patchwork job notwithstanding.
IMHO it's a bit dry and/or expedient. (But to be fair, Rachmaninoff's performances of his own works tend to be that way as well--not very indulgent.)
I got off the Symphony #2 merry go round after listening to Weller's on Decca and Slatkin's surprisingly lovely performance on Vox. (Both Lp's, of course.) Slatkin puts a little more meat on the 1st symphony's protracted ending with some very carefully-balanced voicing.
For the 3rd, Previn's on EMI is a current favorite. IMHO he keeps the adrenaline levels up without stinting on the lyrical sections. The LSO strings are particularly voluptuous. Strangely enough, I've never gotten into Previn's more famous 2nd.
All that said, I have an EMI box set of Mid-century Russian performances on Melodiya and the home teams are in a class of their own, esp. with regard to rhythm.
> > 200 concert recordings of the Rach 3 < <
Impossible. There aren't even that many. Are they private ones? Regardless, the mind boggles. You almost defy belief. "Amphissa", eh? I'm going to remember you.
> > "Praise the Lord" stunt. I just hope the pianist was not wearing one of those ass-baring dresses, because ..... sin! < <
Hilarious.
> > Rachmaninoff's orchestral music really is pretty hard to play. Orchestra members have, quite often, remarked how much they have to practice segments because they are so hard. < <
No wonder Mahler drilled the NYPO so hard - and impressed Rachmaninoff so well by doing that.
> > Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony < <
That's an under appreciated minor masterpiece. It's a wonderful piece - I'm still surprised that people don't really like it.
Here's something nobody seems to have realized about it [again - more incredible insights from me]: if you've really listened to the piece, you can't help but notice how different it is from all of the rest of his music which we all know to death. As you know, that's cause it was compsed before that tragedy that changed his life profoundly. This was Rach The Fearless. Note how bold and daring the music is. He never composed that way again - not even in the Dances. Had that first performance been a success, we'd have a much more aggresive Rachmaninoff. Of course, likely no 2nd or 3rd, but probably many more numerous and vaster symphonies.
N. Thelman, SSI
"Impossible. There aren't even that many. Are they private ones? Regardless, the mind boggles. You almost defy belief. "Amphissa", eh? I'm going to remember you."Well, no, not impossible. There are actually 200 or more commercial recordings. But Rach3 gets played every year by many dozens of orchestras around the world. Radio broadcasts are plentiful, especially by European and Asian orchestras, since classical music is broadcast/streamed constantly in Europe and Asia, but also U.S. orchestras. Plus there are many historical broadcast recordings. I've been collecting those broadcast recordings for decades.
As for never composing that way again and the unsuccess of the first performance, are you referring to the 3rd piano concerto or the 1st symphony? The premier of the Rach3 piano concerto was successful and has been a part of the core repertoire since it was first oerformed. It was the 1st Symphony many years earlier that got panned. Sorry if my comments about the 1st symphony performance confused the discussion.
And his later works pushed past all his previous works, to wit the Dances 3rd movement and the 3rd symphony. He said that he had difficulty with the newer directions in music, because his brain always resolved into melodies. But the 3rd symphony and the last movement of the Symphonic Dances did move into new territory for him.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Edits: 11/07/15
An amazing story - so much so that it almost sounds apocryphal, although no doubt it's completely true.
It's funny. Many of the regional orchestras seem to be poor, while the university ensembles are often amazing. All the more amazing considering that the personel change from year to year, and semester to semester.
N. Thelman, SSI
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