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"It's staggering to consider that nobody's ever challenged that academic view. EXCEPT ME."

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jdaniel@jps.net

A

In Reply to: RE: **WRONG WRONG **DING DONG** WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG posted by Newey on October 29, 2015 at 20:45:49

What do you mean by that?
You're elevating one group of critics (the enemy) by ignoring their more prescient and insightful peers in order to fancy yourself the savior of Romantic/post-Romantic Art?
That's sick.
There are--and were--plenty of "academics" who are and were quite fond and supportive of artists of those eras.*
And there were plenty of critics who weren't.
And there were some critics who evolved over their lifetimes.
*Based upon your previous behavior, you were worth three examples this morning.

Edits: 10/29/15

Follow Ups:

Your Knowledge Of Critical & Academic 20th Cent Trends - Newey 22:40:11 10/29/15 (6)
Limited. It really is. Don't feel diminished. You can't, and don't have to know everything.

I know this stuff cause I canvassed and read it since 1972. I can see just from your posts that you don't have knowledge in this particular corner. Your errors range from being a bit off base to way off base. I'm too tired to type up a full response, but just quickly:

> > ignoring their more prescient and insightful peers in order to fancy yourself the savior of Romantic/post-Romantic Art? < <

Not doing that. Those "prescient" peers - during what? The latter 20th cent? Are you kidding? Do you have any idea how hard the serialist/modernists ruled and how comprehensive their influence was?

There's no point in belaboring this point with me. The published record is all there, in tons of books and articles which they produced.

> > There are--and were--plenty of "academics" who are and were quite fond and supportive of artists of those eras.* < <

Off of the point again. Yes, there always were devoted supporters of composers. That's NOT what I was talking about. READ MY STINKING POSTS ALL THE WAY THROUGH. I've had to make my same point about the 5th time to you already. I was talking about the way the musicologists/academics/critics took apart the Romantic sonata. And, from that disembowelment, the proceeded to disparage the composers and eventually the whole period. Go back a read my post. If you still have questions, ask.

Done with typing for tonight.
N. Thelman, SSI
- Sigh. You said, "EXCEPT ME." (Your caps.) Really? Except you? - jdaniel@jps.net 07:48:18 10/30/15 (5)
  Yes, Serialism (though you realize there's more to modernism than Serialism?) was all the rage for awhile, but: are you saying that *no one* has ever challenged their alleged negative attitudes toward the Romantic era? Ever? Except you?
  What do you really know about these people? Psst: sometimes they've even challenged themselves! And, darn it, even before you got the chance to set them straight.
  For example:
  Did you know Milton Babbit loved cheesy musical theater? And even wrote a broadway show?
  Did you know that Boulez listens to Tchaikovsky for...pleasure??? OMG!!!!
  Stravinsky, who hailed Eliot Carter's "thorny" Piano Concerto a masterpiece and later wrote in the "modernist" style himself, said that there's still plenty of good music to be written in C Major, which brings me to my point:
  "Modernists" don't hate the Romantic style, they simply hate poor, warmed-over, derivative re-hashings of said style.
  Tell us: which Academic held a gun to Barber's or Rachmaninoff's head and forbade them to write?
  Did you know that those evil "modernist academics" voted to give Samuel Barber the Pulitzer prize at the height of you so-called war? Twice! (For his "old school" piano concerto and opera, Vanessa.) These are things that a poseur simply can't know.
  
  You've put together nothing but a patchwork knowledge to serve your own ego and conspiracy theories. Your posts are nothing but gross generalizations, betraying your extreme discomfort with the genre. Every time you venture beyond simple rote memorization/recall to synthesis, your posts devolve into pure sophistry.
  This typical combination of cluelessness, condescension and ego is precisely why you're such a laughing stock. History--and the people in it--are far more complex than you seem to care to know.
  
  Edits: 10/30/15
  - This Is Like Teaching A Slow Learner - Newey 20:00:26 10/30/15 (1)
    Here we go again. This is getting tiresome. I feel as tho I'm lecturing a mentally deficient child, going over the SAME STINKING POINTS, over and over and over and over again.
    
    > > You said, "EXCEPT ME." (Your caps.) Really? Except you? < <
    
    Yes, really. I fully aware of how ridiculous it sounds, and I've typed it out a bit tongue-in-cheek, but to anyone fluent in musicological studies [which you are NOT - demonstrably], no one's put forward my idea in the 45 years that I've been reading and studying this stuff. Frankly, I'm discouraged and disgusted that a world full of bright people hasn't produced someone who could have done so, but the reason lays in the nature of academic research and the politics involved. That, however, is another topic for another time.
    
    > > ...are you saying that *no one* has ever challenged their alleged negative attitudes toward the Romantic era? Ever? Except you? < <
    
    NOPE. I DIDN'T SAY THAT. Never said that. Re-read my posts. Either your trying to construct a straw man in order to knock down, or it's your mental deficiency and lack of reading comprehension showing again. Maybe you should seek medical help.
    
    > > Did you know that Boulez listens to Tchaikovsky for...pleasure? < <
    > > Did you know that those evil "modernist academics" voted to give Samuel Barber the Pulitzer prize at the height of you so-called war? Twice! < <
    
    For the Nth time [jeez, you're dense] - I'M TALKING ABOUT MUSICOLOGISTS! ANALYSTS! NOT COMPOSERS.
    Did that sentence sink in at all. Jiminy? Probably not. Probably just flew right over that dim skull of yours. Can you even discern the difference?
    
    > > your posts devolve into pure sophistry. \ < <
    
    Sophistry? Huh? Let's see. If it's something you don't understand, and on evidence of all of your posts that seems to include pretty much everthing, if it's something you can't grasp - it's sophistry. Hmmm. How do you feel about nuclear physics? "Sophistry"? Nevermind.
    
    Do yourself a favor and get smarter, rather than raving and hollering in ignorance. Go read Prof. Julian Horton's article linked to my Sonata Deformation post. That may at least get you started in the right direction.
    
    N. Thelman, SSI
    - Indeed.... - jdaniel@jps.net 07:20:03 10/31/15 (0)
      > Did you know that Boulez listens to Tchaikovsky for...pleasure? <
      
      > > For the Nth time [jeez, you're dense] - I'M TALKING ABOUT MUSICOLOGISTS! ANALYSTS! NOT COMPOSERS. < <
      
      > > > Sigh. Boulez is a musicologist and an analyst, as well as a composer. < < <
      
      > your posts devolve into pure sophistry. <
      
      > > Sophistry? Huh?> >
      
      > > > See Boulez comments above. < < <
  - You Sound Just Like A Holocaust Denier - Newey 19:23:49 10/30/15 (2)
    Simply denying historical events doesn't mean that they didn't occur.
    
    You're denying actual history. That you're unaware of it's not surprising. Most people don't know musicological history, and frankly, we're better off for it.
    
    What's unfortunate is that rather than learning, you're NOT learning. You're doing he opposite. Not only are you yelling your brains out that the musicological history of which you're ignorant never occurred, but your using that to blast AD HOMINEM attacks on me.
    
    It's sad how you turn EVERY SINGLE learning opportunity into an opportunity to fight instead. Not only that, but every time you've posted something -- IT'S WRONG!! What do we can people such as that? Hmm, let's see? Ignoramus comes to mind, but I'm sure that there're better terms.
    
    DO THIS--> > GO TO MY DEFORMED SONATA THREAD
    
    CLICK ON THE ATTACHED ARTICLE
    
    READ IT
    
    Assuming that you possess normal or better IQ, that should get you on the road to being musically informed. Maybe then you can stop yelling your head off like an ignoramus.
    
    N. Thelman, SSI
    - This Thread Is No Longer Constructive - Shuting it Down - No Further Posts Coming - Newey 19:49:48 10/30/15 (1)
      Jiminy Daniels has descended into doing nothing but hurling insults at me.
      
      There's no more constructive or instructive dialog taking place here.
      
      I have no wish to entertain or encourage a truculent troll. Therefore, I shall no longer post or reply in this thread, and I urge the moderator to use the option to freeze this thread to future posts.
      
      Thank you.
      N. Thelman, SSI
      - Could you be a dear and identify this tune for me? I just can't put my finger on it - jdaniel@jps.net 01:10:42 10/31/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: This Thread Is No Longer Constructive - Shuting it Down - No Further Posts Coming posted by Newey on October 30, 2015 at 19:49:48
        
        Please, anyone in the Newian camp--his fellow connoisseurs, etc.-- don't help, thanks. He's be so insulted; I'm sure he couldn't live with himself.
        
        Edits: 10/31/15

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