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In Reply to: RE: The best period-instrument Eroica you've never heard... posted by C.B. on March 23, 2011 at 08:56:54
This is an important and good point, C.B., thanks for bringing it up. Although there were large orchestras before the 2nd half of the 19th century, in general they probably became larger and louder then as concert halls became larger. And larger meant more string instruments, and with steel rather than gut strings. Many wind and brass instruments were redesigned to make them louder, but not nearly enough to compensate.
A major benefit of the HIP movement for orchestral music is the restoration of that balance. Far more important than the use of original instruments (I also agree with you there), or even the degree of vibrato, IMO.
I remember Collegium Aureum, I think I have one or two of their LPs (Haydn, perhaps?), I'll look for more.
Follow Ups:
"Many wind and brass instruments were redesigned to make them louder, but not nearly enough to compensate [for the added strings]."I can't say this has happened with any Beethoven symphony performances I've been to, but I've attended a few Bruckner symphony performances where, when the whole orchestra is "orating", I can SEE that all the strings are playing, but all I can HEAR is the brass! :-)
BTW, there is a fairly recent chamber-orchestra cycle of the Beethoven symphonies underway that I never tire of recommending. It's the one on the Tacet label, with the Polish Chamber Orchestra, Wojciech Rajski conducting:
They've done all the symphonies except for the Ninth so far, and every one of the performances I've heard (all except the disc pictured above) is extremely vital and exciting. In multichannel, the orchestra surrounds you (that's probably not very HIP!), but I think the SACD versions have a 2-channel CD layer. (I have the DVD-Audio versions.)
Edits: 03/23/11
If I move my mouse wheel back and forth while your album photo is displayed, it looks like the Beethoven busts are moving in a circle. If I just move the screen up and down with the slider bar on the right, I don't get the same illusion.
rlindsa
His interpretation may not be for everyone, but he does a fine job of balancing the strings and winds. As for the brasses overwhelming the strings in live concerts, I suspect that's often because from many seats in many large halls you don't hear the same balance the conductor is hearing, but instead too much from the back of the stage, where the brasses and percussion usually are. Woodwinds seldom overwhelm anyone else.
Actually, although I haven't heard the Herreweghe recording, I don't find that the balance problem shows up on recordings - it only happened 2-3 times in live concerts in my experience, and your description could well explain the reason why. Regarding the woodwinds overwhelming everyone else, I agree, that just doesn't normally happen.
but I've been disappointed with the chamber orchestra versions of Beethoven I've heard.
Harnoncourt's with the Chamber Orchestra of Europe comes immediately to mind. In terms of wind/string balance, it's better than, say, Szell and the Clevelanders or Bernstein/NYP. The problem with Harnoncourt's brass players is that they slam and punch everything--their sound isn't sonorous like the Collegium Aureum brass. Also, I don't care at all for the sound of the COE's solo oboe.
Another disappointing chamber orchestra series, from the standpoint of brass sonority, is the Paavo Jarvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie on RCA. More slam and punch, and the brass section isn't even as forward as on the Harnoncourt recordings. In fact, these are pretty much string-centered performances.
I keep coming back to the recent Beethoven series by Vanska/Minnesota on BIS. Even though it's Big Band Beethoven, the winds are fairly prominent. Vanska just doesn't understand the proper role of the trumpet in Beethoven, however--but then, I can't name a single conductor who does.
Admittedly, these considerations take a back seat to the overall interpretation, but they are things I do look for.
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
"Vanska just doesn't understand the proper role of the trumpet in Beethoven, however--but then, I can't name a single conductor who does."
What is the proper role?
Complicated subject that's hard to cover in a short post, but basically the trumpet parts in Classical scores often have melodic content that's overlooked by most conductors. Trumpet parts in Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert are considered perfunctory and "rhythmic" by conductors (and players), and usually treated as such. Trumpet players refer to them as "thump and bump", which should give you some idea.
Case in point is the first movement of Mozart's Symphony 39. The first trumpet (along with the horn) actually has the initial statement of the main theme. It should be played out, boldly but in a legato fashion (with phrasing, not just a series of individual notes). In most recordings, however, the trumpet part is barely audible. Exception: Klemperer's second version with the old Philharmonia. Great performance, but it's only available on LP--EMI for some strange reason chose to release the first version on CD.
Another example is Beethoven's Seventh. In the coda to the first movement, the first trumpet has repeated high Es and As that dialog with the horns. The horn parts are also high-lying, and you can't help but hear these, provided the horn players are halfway decent. But the first trumpet? Only two recordings in my experience bring out the trumpet part to my satisfaction: Karajan's second, and John Eliot Gardiner's.
Admittedly, the trumpets are only one ingredient in the overall recipe, but they're still important. I once wrote an article about this whole subject for Continuo Magazine--maybe it's online, but I doubt it.
I should mention that period instrument orchestras are no better at this than modern ones. The prevailing style of trumpet playing is very hard-hitting and non-legato--cf. my statement about Harnoncourt earlier in this thread.
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
but I don't see (hear) what you mean with regard to Mozart Symphony 39. I have the last six Mozart symphonies with Klemperer and the Philharmonia on stereo LPs, and I'm pretty sure they're the early 60s versions. But I've never found Klemperer's woodwinds and brasses especially inspiring, certainly not in those records. Their solo passages, which as you rightly point out are so important in the Mozart and Beethoven symphonies, are pushed forward in the mix, which is fine (and likely more due to the EMI engineers than the conductor). But they generally lack the sparkle and life I like to hear.
I agree, generally, that these recordings are not the most sparkling or liveliest – nor are they the least so.
Regarding Klempie's winds, I seem to have an almost diametrically opposed opinion, once again speaking generally. His Brahms symphonies and the "Das Lied von die Erde" he did with Wunderlich and Ludwig, for examples, have some of my favorite woodwind sounds and lines.
I've never heard the LPs of these Mozart performances. In my CDs, though, I'm not aware of any artifacts or indications that might cause you to suggest that the engineers had more to do with the balance of the winds and horns in the orchestra than did Klemperer. I have to say that my impression has long been that he tends to give them their due as a rule. The sectional balances here sound to me to be part of what I consider to be his overall approach to symphonic performance.
Yours,
-=- Charlie F.
First, thanks for your words about the trumpet in Classical period works.
You piqued my curiosity with the Mozart Nº 39 citation. I knew I had a Klemperer/Philharmonia recording, but not which one. “What ho!” says I, “I've got the one C.B. is talking about.”
And you are certainly correct on the nice trumpet/horn soli.
My 4CD set (titled simply “Klemperer: Mozart Symphonien 25 • 29 • 31 • 33 • 34 • 35 • 36 • 38 • 39 • 40 • 41”) is EMI CMS 7 63272 2 and dates from 1989.
Again, thank you.
-=- Charlie F.
my CD set has the SECOND one, and as I said, it's not as good. But I still have my LP of the first version!
"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
C.B.,
Your earlier post says “Exception: Klemperer's second version with the old Philharmonia. Great performance , but it's only available on LP -- EMI for some strange reason chose to release the first version on CD .”
I read that as saying that the BETTER example of the trumpet/horn balance is found on the 1962, not the 1956.
While I have not knowingly heard the first performance and thus cannot make a comparison, I can say that the ’62 has a very nicely present trumpet voice in that theme statement (and later in the movement, as well).
Additionally, I have to say that I love Klemperer's treatment of the woodwinds generally. This is also apparent in the ’62 Mozart Nº 39.
Yours,
-=- Charlie F.
I just checked, and my CD set has the earlier (1956) version, not as good from the standpoint of that trumpet theme as the 1962. The 1962 is just a better all round performance, IMO.
"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
Thank you!
I was beginning to think that I might need to start looking for the ’56 Klempie – which isn't really on my radar right now. As you said initially, C.B., the’62 recording is very nice. And I appreciate your having pointed out the trumpet balance issue in general. I will be looking for that in my future Classical-period listening.
Yours,
-=- Charlie F.
... is available on Testament:
and it might just be on this set (see link) -
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
It's the one I included in my first post above: EMI CMS 7 63272 2. I bought it used back in the early ’90s.
And I've really enjoyed focusing on the first movement's brass balance that C.B. first mentioned in this thread.Thanks again.
-=- Charlie F.
I'm almost certain that every time EMI issues Klemperer's #39, it's the stereo (i.e. 1962) version. They licensed the 1956 version, which is monaural, to Testament, because EMI presumably didn't have any interest in issuing it themselves. The 4 CD set that you mention presumably contains 1962, as does the 2CD GROC set, as does this one:
The "Great Recordings of the Century" set I have (EMI 3 45815 2--released 2006) has the 1956 version--as a matter of fact, it even says "first release in stereo" on it! I believe EMI recorded Klemp's early stuff (after 1955 or so) in stereo, but originally released a lot of it on mono LPs only.But thanks for the link! I going to order that version (or maybe the 4-CD set that Charlie has) just to have the 1962 version on CD.
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
Edits: 03/25/11
I had a couple of the Paavo Jarvi discs for awhile, but I just couldn't live with them - unlike you, I loved the way he let the strings dominate the texture, but then, when they use so little vibrato, it's all for naught IMHO. :-)
I kind of like the Vänskä/Minnesota performances - they're maybe just a touch on the bland side however, and I would have liked the microphones to be closer to give the performances more of a cutting edge.
Haven't heard the Harnoncourt/COE performances but your description of the way he lets the brass slam and punch everything seems consistent with other performances of his that I've heard. (I do like his performances of Dvorak with the Concertgebouw Orchestra however, as well as his Johann Strauss disc with the BPO on a Teldec/Warner DVD-Audio.)
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