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I was just listening to the Praetorius suite from this disc (the copy I have is on the Boston Skyline label). It was originally released as a DG Archiv LP in the early 60's and was one of the first to use original instruments (or reconstructions thereof) in this music. I agree entirely with the Amazon poster who states, "no contemporary group anywhere has ever coupled the vitality and sense of dance of this classical recording of the 60's. When I want to exemplify in my classes what Renaissance dance music was, I always resort to this recording, and in spite of the 'shouldn't be' vibrato. . . , the technique, the contrasts, and the versatility makes this recording a must have for any collector."
Yes, you read right: even the viols and other strings are played WITH vibrato - the recording comes from those Halcyon days BEFORE the musicological mafia put its collective foot down and enforced the "no-vibrato" party line in this repertoire!
For me, the color, the energy, and the sheer vitality of this recording place it head and shoulders above any other that I've heard in this music. I'm speaking particularly about the performances by the Collegium Terpsichore here - these are just life-enhancing performances.
Follow Ups:
There seems to be a 2 disc collection which contains those recordings, linked below. I've put it in my Cart.I must say I have enjoyed Praetorius, Dances from the Terpsichore on Naxos 8.553865. The instrumentalists don't use vibrato (though the soprano soloist makes no attempt to suppress it) but the performances are quite perky and the sound isn't harsh.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Edits: 03/21/11
I'd like to post the covers of my favorite hip albums, but they are NSFW and the Bored would censor me.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
Yeah, those recordings are great. There are a great many modern ones that are too, though. One group you may like, if you haven't heard them before, is the Baltimore Consort. They used to record on the Dorian label, but I just found out that that label is now owned by somebody else, I forget who. I have heard that they are still performing, but don't know if they are still recording. Custer LaRue was their singer, and the group has much the same vitality that you like in these recordings.
OK, I hesitate to ask, but my curiosity can't help it - what have you got against Emma Kirkby?
I like the Baltimore Consort. Custer LaRue, not so much. But she left the group at least ten years ago. They have a recent release on the Dorian label.
I have loved that one from the day I got the original Archiv LP.
Kal
Gawd, I weary of your "no vibrato" tirades. IME, and buying HIP performances since the early 70s, everyone still used vibrato in varying amounts, some very little but always there. Emma Kirkby comes to mind as one who was villified for "no vibrato" when in fact she did use it and still does with discrimination.
You come across as obsessive about this. Tell me why I'm wrong.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
To judge from the record-buying public, he's in the minority, too.
As you correctly point out, his fixation on "no vibrato" shows a disregard (ignorance?) of all the other aspects of period instrument performance, which I dare say are far more important to most fans of early music.
But of course, this topic has been beaten to death many times before on this forum.
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
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"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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"You weren't afraid of being born--why would you be afraid of dying?" Alan Watts
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"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Yup, I admit: I'm obsessive! You're always welcome not to read my posts if it bothers you. Emma Kirkby? Please!!EDIT:
"buying HIP performances since the early 70s, everyone still used vibrato in varying amounts"
"used" - past tense? So when do YOU think they stopped?
Edits: 03/20/11
Yeah, Emma. Such an ugly sound.
No one has stopped. They still use vibrato. You need to listen just a little more closely. Just because one doesn't use it a lot doesn't mean one don't use any. I'm begining to think you're an absolutist or deaf or both. Just kidding, of course. Does one use no vibrato as an expressive device or does one use vibrato as an expressive device? Or, is it vibrato all or most of the time? Unconfuse me.
Must we have heart-on-sleeve all the time or can we have different styles to fit different music?
IMHO, vibrato is an expressive device which can be used appropriately depending on the style and period of the music.
As a piano player with no vibrato, how do you feel about that?
A former concertmaster of the Houston Symphony once said, derogatorily, in response to the early music movement, "It's all music".
That sure makes it easier to play.
BTW, I read some of your posts because I get the impression that you're a real good piano player and I respect that. I try not to read the stuff about HIP style and how you hate it. Sorry, I fell off the wagon.
Clarinet players must drive you crazy.
Cheers.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
. . . I'll refrain from saying anything more about Ms. Kirkby. :-)
"Does one use no vibrato as an expressive device or does one use vibrato as an expressive device? Or, is it vibrato all or most of the time? Unconfuse me."
Listen to the recording I recommended above and see for yourself - there is something fundamentally different about the quality of sound in that recording which, to me, differs from subsequent HIP recordings, even though, as you say, the performers on those later recordings might deign to use just a touch of vibrato every now and then. Sure, it's an expressive device, but as we've discussed before, no one uses it all the time - it's impossible!
"Must we have heart-on-sleeve all the time or can we have different styles to fit different music?"
Even though I like your rhetoric, I think you know very well that the use of vibrato does not automatically make a performance heart-on-sleeve, and that vibrato is not the sole differentiator of style within a musical performance. My question remains, what changed in HIP orthodoxy from the time of the release of the Collegium Terpsichore DG Archiv disc and the release of recordings from subsequent HIP ensembles? The gist of my post was that here is a HIP disc that I actually like - and the reason I like it is because it has a fundamentally different quality of sound to it, despite the use of period instruments or reproductions thereof. I highly recommend this recording to you and others - that was the reason for my post.
"As a piano player with no vibrato, how do you feel about that?"
I do admit there's a cognitive dissonance here! :-) Interestingly enough, there are works, such as the Balakirev Piano Sonata, where the composer marks, "Vibrato" in the score. So you see, even as pianists, we WISH we could have vibrato! :-)
"Clarinet players must drive you crazy."
Well, sometimes, they can get to be pretty piercing! :-) Even so, I've certainly heard clarinets played with vibrato. I think some of the Czech Philharmonic recordings from the 50's featured clarinet solos with a quite noticeable vibrato.
"My question remains, what changed in HIP orthodoxy from the time of the release of the Collegium Terpsichore DG Archiv disc and the release of recordings from subsequent HIP ensembles?"
Seems like the key acronim is HIP, or historically informed performances. IMO, there has been a lot more research on this subject after about the mid-1960s than there was before then and subsequent application of that research. I think the late, lamented David Munrow was one of the catalysts for fresh thought coupled with painstakng research on medieval and renaissance performance practice.
For the baroque era, I'm so glad we have more choices of interpretation than just ASMF, the Bach Collegium, Viruosi di Roma, I Musici and the big band sounds of NYPO, BPO, BSO and so forth not to mention the heavier voices needed to sing over such an aggregation. The bands play well enough, of course, but with too many folks playing the same line with all those vibrati clashing with each other makes for a lack of transparency leading to the perception of a certain doggedness which can also result in leaden tempi. At that point, it becomes debilitating to many listeners and does not serve the music well. It is mostly chamber music after all.
And, are you saying you prefer clarinet players who use vibrato most of the time as in your example from the 1950s? I truly love those Czech wind sections but as you well know, vibrato has little to do with their excellence.
I'm happy that you like one recording of early music and posted about it. I've been listening and performing this period of music for over forty years and when I heard the new wave of perfomance styles that emerged, I couldn't go back.
I like reading your posts on pianists and piano music, your obvious strength, even when I don't always agree with your opinions.
I also understand your inability to resist a slam at current medieval, renaissance and baroque era performance practice.
Chow.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
IMO, there has been a lot more research on this subject after about the mid-1960s than there was before then and subsequent application of that research. I think the late, lamented David Munrow was one of the catalysts for fresh thought coupled with painstakng research on medieval and renaissance performance practice.
Undoubtedly true - but I'm not aware of any NEW discoveries, merely a hardening of the minimalist approach to vibrato. I was having this HIP stuff crammed down my throat pretty much all through the 70's.
For the baroque era, I'm so glad we have more choices of interpretation than just ASMF, the Bach Collegium, Viruosi di Roma, I Musici and the big band sounds of NYPO, BPO, BSO and so forth not to mention the heavier voices needed to sing over such an aggregation. The bands play well enough, of course, but with too many folks playing the same line with all those vibrati clashing with each other makes for a lack of transparency leading to the perception of a certain doggedness which can also result in leaden tempi. At that point, it becomes debilitating to many listeners and does not serve the music well. It is mostly chamber music after all.
I cry, "Foul!" :-) First of all, I don't think is fair or accurate to lump groups such as ASMF, I Musici, etc. with "big band" sounds of symphony orchestras. But in any case, I'm all in favor of more choices of interpretation myself - that's why I find your point ironic: do you disagree that if I go out and try to find a recent (say, last couple of decades) recording of, say, a Bach Cantata I have much of a choice at all if I'm after a non-HIP performance? I can tell you from experience: it's not easy to find a non-HIP performances of this repertoire anymore. Yes indeed, I wish there were more choices of interpretation! I also take issue with your contention that vibrato in itself makes for a lack of transparency: maybe true in you perception, not in mine. Then you throw in "doggedness" and "leaden tempi" - is that your slippery slope if vibrato is permitted? Be assured, I'm not pointing to Klemperer as the finest exemplar of Baroque style! :-) BTW, going back to my OP on this thread, I found that the Collegium Terpsichore performances are LESS dogged and LESS leaden than David Munrow is in the same Praetorius dances I referred to.
And, are you saying you prefer clarinet players who use vibrato most of the time as in your example from the 1950s? I truly love those Czech wind sections but as you well know, vibrato has little to do with their excellence.
You're correct that vibrato has little to do with the excellence of the player, but it is part of the CzPO "sound" that many listeners cherish. I don't know if you've heard the story of Julian Lloyd Weber recording the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Vaclav Neumann and the CzPO. During the sessions, Neumann made a reference to the woodwind sounds of the orchestra, and said that he hoped Weber would not be thrown off because they did not sound like the winds in Western European orchestras. "Not at all," Weber replied, "that's why we're here!"
I've been listening and performing this period of music for over forty years and when I heard the new wave of performance styles that emerged, I couldn't go back.
Excellent - I'm very happy for you. I think our experience levels are similar, but, as I've mentioned before, I believe the mannerisms of the HIP movement are merely a device to differentiate the HIP "product" from traditional performing styles. Yeah, I'm cynical here.
I also understand your inability to resist a slam at current medieval, renaissance and baroque era performance practice.
Yup - I can't resist a good slam every now and then! :-) But I'm not as certain as you are that current HIP orthodoxy really represents the actual practice. I mean, if I want to go see a performance without vibrato, I'll go to a concert by my local elementary school orchestra! :-)
"I mean, if I want to go see a performance without vibrato, I'll go to a concert by my local elementary school orchestra! :-)"
You might need a fresher rejoiner. We've seen this before and it still has no meaning.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
One of my favorite classical vocalists. You know, never once have I listened to her because she was "HIP". I really like her sound, simple as that. And it's true, she does use vibrato.
Edits: 03/21/11
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