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In Reply to: RE: Update on accoustically enhanced concert halls posted by Amphissa on March 08, 2011 at 12:24:14
"Between Chris and another person I know who attended that concert, both of whom are experienced performing musicians with years of discerning listening as well, neither perceived anything unnatural about the sound."
I keep reminding folks of my very first statement: "if this had been a recording, I would have have sworn that they had spot microphones on the lower strings!" To me, the use of spot microphones is unnatural. The reason I thought this sound was so extraordinary was because I thought the orchestra players were producing it themselves - without the electronic enhancement. But since I subsequently found out that they used electronic enhancement to produce this sound, I'm not impressed anymore.
"I rather suspect that we will see more of this in the future"
I do too - but that means there will be less and less of a difference between what we can achieve in our living rooms and what's on offer at the concert hall - so, as I already asked, why bother to go out to the concert hall?
Reading the documents you linked to, I admit to being impressed at the sheer scope and detail of the effort - that doesn't mean I'm happy about how it's encroaching into, it seems, more and more concert venues.
Follow Ups:
"I rather suspect that we will see more of this in the future"
I do too - but that means there will be less and less of a difference between what we can achieve in our living rooms and what's on offer at the concert hall - so, as I already asked, why bother to go out to the concert hall?
I suspect that the systems will also be used to make ensembles sound more opulent and polished than they really are.
"I suspect that the systems will also be used to make ensembles sound more opulent and polished than they really are."
Since I've already heard both orchestras and classical musicians "Auto-Tuned" in videos, it should not be difficult to plug a software module like that into a hall's "enhancement" algorithm..........
Chris, I am not a fan of spot microphones in recording either. Yet, I have attended concerts in which I was really impressed with the ability of the orchestra to play at levels that allowed each instrument section to be heard (isolated through conscious effort) and allowed solo passages to rise above the orchestra at a reasonable level.
I think back on a concert I attended at Carnegie Hall, featuring Hillary Hahn playing the Shostakovich VC 1, backed by the Concertgebouw Orchestra conducted by Chailly. I was floored by the audio presence and quality, warm and yet defined. I had never been in a hall that good, with an orchestra that good.
Last year, I attended a chamber music concert at the newly renovated Alice Tully Hall and had much the same reaction, listening to a sextet. In comparison, Avery Fischer sounds like a rehearsal space, dry and hard.
So, it can be done through engineering. But it costs many, many millions of dollars. Most regional and city orchestras around the country cannot afford to build that kind of space. But, through the generosity of one wealthy donor, they could afford a sound system that would be a remarkable improvement for their current space.
Yes, as purists, we can say that we much prefer to hear orchestras untouched by any electronics in a great hall. But for the vast majority of Americans, that will never happen.
I suspect that the majority of the audience were totally wowed by the VPO in Berkeley. Even you were wowed. It's easy to criticize afterwards, saying it wasn't "real" or whatever. But for most people, it is this *experience* of music being playing in your presence that creates the goosebump factor. It is still a live performance. They are not lip-synching to a recording. And as you yourself pointed out, even after learning the sound had be shaped to improve the acoustics of the hall, they *still* sounded so much better than other orchestras you've heard in that same space. So you can still discern the special quality of that orchestra.
I know that you and most classical musicians are nauseated by the very idea of amplification and electronic reshaping of the sound created by the orchestra. I am a patron of orchestras and have known many orchestra musicians in every city I've lived in. I understand the traditions and the misgivings.
But I am also a passionate music lover. And I can't count the number of times I've suffered through what I *think* were good performances in dreadful settings, making it impossible to truly appreciate the talent of the musicians and the commitment they invest in their performances.
Carnegie Hall does not need a Meyer Constellation System. Many of the places I've been in would be dramatically improved by that. And 99% of the people attending concerts in those halls would rejoice at the improvement in audio quality -- probably while the orchestra simmered in disgust at the offense to their traditional way of performing.
"Life without music is a mistake" (Nietzsche)
. . . possibly in your expectation that 99% of the audience would be happy to have the electronic system in place to improve the audio quality of the venue.The answer is simple: make sure the concert promoters are obliged (by city statute or whatever) to include in their advertising and publicity the acknowledgement that the electronic system is in place. My feeling is that they will lose quite a bit more than 1% of the audience. To me, it's the same sort of issue as the (non)-requirement for food companies to list GMO's (genetically modified organisms) in their products. There's tremendous opposition to any kind of requirement like this on the part of the food conglomerates, because they know that they'll lose sales if their customers have actual knowledge of what's in the food. The principle is the same for the food of the soul! :-)
Edits: 03/09/11
I would not have attended, or considered attending, the VPO concerts at Zellerbach had I known they were using electronic enhancement of the live sound.
I passed on the opportunity to hear the VPO under Bernstein at Concord Pavillion in 1987, for the same reason.
I will not pay hundreds of dollars to hear a PA system, no matter how sophisticated.
"Has the virgin purity of your music been QUANTIZED??" (Richard Heyser)
. . . although, come to think of it, the last time J-Fi was in Berkeley, she played in Hertz Hall (a smaller hall, used for recitals, near the main music building, and, as far as I know, uncontaminated by acoustic virtual reality systems).
NT
David Aiken
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