- Posted by zulugone (A) on October 10, 2016 at 15:45:56
In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by lactogenes on September 27, 2016 at 14:33:59
I mentioned in an earlier reply that my choice, about a year ago, was a Rythmik F15HP. I don't know if I would make the same choice now or not. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the Rythmik just that I don't know...what a sub is supposed to sound like. My question now is what is good subwoofer supposed to sound like all by itself. I naively thought a sub would accurately reproduce lower notes like they sounded live just as a regular speaker would with higher notes but I was wrong.
My sub is driven directly by an Oppo BDP-105 using the SW out with bass management with 10+db trim. The Oppo volume is always at 100%. With the sub volume at 1/2 it will vibrate the two story house.
I downloaded a decent YouTube mp3 of someone playing all 88 notes on an acoustic piano. Listening with the sub plus 1.7 plus DWM the recording sounds clear. I can hear the harp sound for all notes and room acoustics. The pianist is hitting the notes with close to the same force. When I listen to just the sub I hear
1. for the top notes what sounds like a stick hitting a block of wood
2. for the middle of the piano the actual notes but with only a fraction of the clarity of the recording.
3. for the lower notes what sounds a lot more like one note bass. It almost sounds like 2 levels of sound. One the actual note very muted with a louder one note bass. There is some variation in level but it's impossible to tell if it is from the sub or the recording.
I can guess that this is what is meant as 'sound reinforcement'. The sub is 'fast' in that low notes don't boom on past the time they sound on the recording overlapping each other. If there are subs out there that play low notes clearer I would consider them as long as the price wasn't too high. Playing the Maggies with the sub sounds much better than without especially with say acoustic double bass. Even at 27.5 HZ the Maggies are putting out most of the actual note. Saying the sub is 'musical' is like saying a fish rides a bicycle well.
Using the Oppo stereo outs to the sub's line inputs the notes are noticeably clearer than using the bass managed SW out into the sub's LFE input. There is some audible difference in changing the various switches.
I did this test with only one RCA cable which is standard for the SW/LFE out. I will try later with a second for the line input option.
One off the wall thought about the TBI. I heard the president of SVS state in a podcast interview that the highest cost for a sub manufacture is the box. Maybe TBI found a way to make a cheaper box sound just as good?
Follow Ups:
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - Norman M 19:40:02 10/10/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by zulugone on October 10, 2016 at 15:45:56
I never owned a sub, but a long time ago a friend did. I recall it looking like a coffin and IIRC they were so called. It was about 5 ft. tall and stood in a corner of the room. It was used with a Tympani lll-A, and I asked to listen to it alone, (by itself). I wouldn't say it produced any 'real' sound, it was more like something I could feel, rather than hear.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - Satie 19:19:44 10/10/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by zulugone on October 10, 2016 at 15:45:56
My favorite sub box material is cheap and much better than MDF, fiber doped concrete. Unfortunately it has to be cast in place and drilling the holes for the driver mount is not easy. You can't ship the thing. Did I say the project makes a mess?
If you are using the line in on the sub and want to compare to the SW output on the Oppo, you need to set the sub with the same freq that oppo uses for its cutoff..
What yuu describe is generally what you expect for a sub's sound. The ?one note" us likely your main room mode when not masksed by the music higher up. You can probably locate the sub or the seat better to reduce it. But you should also play a set of test tones rather than just piano since the sounding board and piano frame resonances can also create a low freq single note "accompaniment" which is noticeable without the top notes of the piano playing through the system.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - zulugone 19:50:51 10/10/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by Satie on October 10, 2016 at 19:19:44
Yep, test tones sound more distinct. I did the piano test because piano recordings that used the keys on the left end sounded more muddy as the Oppo crossover went higher.
I do think using line in is clearer than LFE at the same point (50 or 80 HZ)....at least for the few recordings I tried. Rythmik documentation for my amp contains this ambiguous to me sentence: "The trade-off between using LFE IN and LINE IN (with AVR/12 LPF switch position) is the perceived background noise level." I have to ding Brian on his writing. I can't tell which input has the noise or if the noise is real or imaginary.
Rythmik advised using Oppo bass management to bypass their own crossover and phase control(for distance).
I'm glad my Maggies go so low. REW likes my current sub position but it likes it more with the Oppo crossover than the Rythmik crossover.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - Satie 07:23:19 10/11/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by zulugone on October 10, 2016 at 19:50:51
It occurred to me that the Oppo is not doing as well with the +10db setting for the SW output with the level attenuated at the sub input. Try using a lower SW output and set the level on the sub higher. The Oppo DSP might not do as well on 10db crossover level differences.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - larryk1 15:37:01 10/20/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by Satie on October 11, 2016 at 07:23:19
Just added 2nd Rel T-7i to my Maggie .7s.
Overall sound is Smoother, Fuller and Richer than single sub.
Bass is deeper, tighter, and more defined.
Solid bass measured down to 26HZ.
The soundstage has increased, especially the depth and the midrange sounds a bit more detailed and open.
Never thought the single sub sounded directional until I added the second sub.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - BDP24 00:01:41 10/21/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by larryk1 on October 20, 2016 at 15:37:01
Larry, at what frequency are you crossing over to the subs? Slope?
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - larryk1 06:21:19 10/21/16
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- In Reply to: RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio posted by BDP24 on October 21, 2016 at 00:01:41
Sub is connected via Neutrik Speakon connector high level input and crossover set to approx 50 hz.
Info taken from Rel manual:
"The high-level input is designed to accept the stereo (two-channel) signals from the speaker terminals of your receiver, integrated amplifier or basic amplifer. This has the advantage of ensuring that your subwoofer receives exactly the same signal as the main speakers, which means that the character of the bass from the main system is carried forward into the Sub-Bass System.
This is a very important point and together with REL's Natural RollO TM circuitry, ensures far superior system integration of the Sub-Bass System with the main system."
No published info on slope.
Dialing in Rel subs are a combination of placement, crossover and volume settings, and as you know are room dependent. The 2nd sub required lowering the crossover from 65Hz to 50Hz and extended the frequency from 31.5Hz to 25 Hz.
- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - larryk1 06:21:19 10/21/16
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- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - BDP24 00:01:41 10/21/16
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- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - larryk1 15:37:01 10/20/16
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- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - Satie 07:23:19 10/11/16
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- RE: Sub option for MG .7 Rythmik F12 or TBI Audio - zulugone 19:50:51 10/10/16
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