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RE: Tympani 1-D???

71.67.188.239

Satie

In Reply to: RE: Tympani 1-D??? posted by andyr on May 06, 2015 at 16:02:49

DELAM

and bad repairs thereof.

Follow Ups:

RE: Tympani 1-D??? - andyr 17:00:12 05/06/15 (22)
Yeah, thanks, Satie - I will be looking for that (as much as I can without being able to strip Maggie naked! :-)) ) but I understand they have a push-pull tweeter ... so that will make picking up delam with this a bit difficult?

I will arrive with some sweep test CDs.

Andy
- RE: Tympani 1-D??? - Barry 23:35:56 05/06/15 (19)
  The tweeters are on one of the end panels by themselves. You won't have any trouble hearing any damage. At the bottom of the panels you'll see black wires connecting them if you do want to separate the tweeter. Just pull them out as they use "plug/push in" connectors.
  - Great - thanks for your input, Barry! :-)) ... - andyr 23:41:03 05/06/15 (18)
    I shall report back whether we bought them or not.
    
    Regards,
    
    Andy
    - RE: Great - thanks for your input, Barry! :-)) ... - Roger Gustavsson 08:10:25 05/07/15 (17)
      I hope your mate can stand the diffuse imaging of the I-D compared to your T-IVa mid/tweeter Frankenpan... You should try out the Frankenpan with the I-D basses!
      - RE: Well my mate bought them! :-)) ... - andyr 22:52:47 05/08/15 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Great - thanks for your input, Barry! :-)) ... posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 07, 2015 at 08:10:25
        
        The store owner made him a deal ... he couldn't refuse! :-))
        
        They were supposed to be A$600, so ~USD470. But one channel wasn't working - so the guy said my mate could have them for A$200 - about USD160! That would have to be the cheapest Maggies sold anywhere! :-))
        
        I know the store owner and so I believed him when he said they were working at the previous owner's place, 6 months ago ... so I'm sure once we strip off the sack-cloth and study the wires and the connectors, I can fairly rapidly get the damaged channel working.
        
        We did listen to one channel and that sounded great; I also felt (as best I could, under the thick cloth) to see whether there were any loose wires ... and I couldn't find any.
        
        So we will just have to see, when my mate has organised to get them home.
        
        Re. "diffuse imaging" of the T-1s ... I can understand this, given the normal zig-zag panel placement. But by arranging the panels in an arc, as Satie suggested, in separate hardwood frames and driven 2-way active, I'm thinking they should sound quite good.
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: Well my mate bought them! :-)) ... - Satie 23:08:09 05/08/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well my mate bought them! :-)) ... posted by andyr on May 08, 2015 at 22:52:47
        
        Quite the deal then. For that little money you can justify restoring the speakers even if nothing was working.
        
        Once the problem with the non functioning driver is solved you need to make feet for the speakers to make the equidistant arc placement possible. I suggest you wait with the framing project and first just figure out how to brace the panels (at least the bass panels)
        
        "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... - andyr 01:16:58 05/09/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Well my mate bought them! :-)) ... posted by Satie on May 08, 2015 at 23:08:09
        
        What I'm thinking of, Satie, is to repeat what I did for my IIIas:
        
        ... one pair of A-frames for each panel. I might change the base from that U-shaped steel base - which was fine for the IIIa (which is all on one frame) - to 1.5" thick wooden bases (1 per frame), like I've used on my Frankenpans.
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... - Satie 11:52:23 05/09/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... posted by andyr on May 09, 2015 at 01:16:58
        
        Note that you want the legs not to jut forwards outside the edge of the panel so as to facilitate a curved (concave) placement scheme without creating a gap between the bass panels (gap = less bass)
        
        BTW the 1st order XO for the T 1D is really asking for PLLXO just two caps and a resistor. Just do them symmetrically on the electronic side for the equidistant placement, it comes off better then the stock slopes that overlap some (I am thinking in order to accommodate the arrival time difference in magnepan's recommended placement)
        
        RE: "facilitate a curved (concave) placement scheme " ... - andyr 15:49:31 05/09/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... posted by Satie on May 09, 2015 at 11:52:23
        
        Yes, I will use a "Stealth" approach (with apologies to Mye!) with a U-shaped base made of 1/4" steel U-channel, so the panels rest on the floor in front of base. (The struts will be bolted to the base.)
        
        According to the Magnepan schematic, the T1-D's XO is:
        * HP @ 1,136Hz and
        * LP @ 930Hz.
        
        Anyway, I'll do a sim in lspCAD and see how that looks. Initially, the guy wants to use a miniDSP 2x4 unit instead of a PLLXO, to actively bi-amp, as this will also give him room correction. But we'll see how this sounds.
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "facilitate a curved (concave) placement scheme " ... - Satie 16:14:54 05/09/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "facilitate a curved (concave) placement scheme " ... posted by andyr on May 09, 2015 at 15:49:31
        
        not as good...
        
        The T-1D tweeter is not as fast as the ribbon is but is still plenty capable of detail retrieval so cheap DAC artifacts will likely "shine" through.
        
        Sure, but for his 4m x 4.5m x 4m room ... - andyr 16:56:56 05/09/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "facilitate a curved (concave) placement scheme " ... posted by Satie on May 09, 2015 at 16:14:54
        
        the room processing facilities may well do a lotta good.
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... - j beede 08:26:05 05/09/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... posted by andyr on May 09, 2015 at 01:16:58
        
        If I had those Tympani I think I would build a 21st century equivalent to Harry Pearson's Infinity ribbon/Tympani hybrids (TAS ca. 1976). A pair of Strathearn ribbons or ribbons excised from Carver Amazings or perhaps the ribbons that Parts Express currently sells plus a Dahlquist DQ-LP1 active crossover. For around US$1500 what an amazing speaker that should make.
        
        The stereo imaging that my T-1C produced was not diffuse. The image was on the large side... and fun. They were the first speakers I ever heard that produced tangible sound stage depth. I remember listening to The Weavers at Carnegie Hall, the audience softly sings along during "Good night Irene". Stunning.
        
        RE: "good to hear" ... - andyr 15:58:39 05/09/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "first just figure out how to brace the panels" ... posted by j beede on May 09, 2015 at 08:26:05
        
        that the imaging of your T1-Cs wasn't diffuse. I think the way we plan to do it - with the panels arranged in an arc (tweeters in bcoz he has a narrow room so the outer bass panel will be against the wall, on each side) - will do something good for imaging, compared to the bizarre 'zig zag' setup.
        
        If I was taking them to the max, I would make some "FrankenTymps" by either:
        * turn it into a 3-way by making the tweeter cover just the mids and add a true ribbon for the highs, or
        * replace the tweeter panel with a line of Neo8s plus a true ribbon.
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
      - RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - andyr 13:11:41 05/07/15 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Great - thanks for your input, Barry! :-)) ... posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 07, 2015 at 08:10:25
        
        Hi Roger,
        Why do they have more diffuse imaging? Is it because of their wide tweeter panel, compared to the narrow ribbon?
        Yes, Tymp bases plus my T-IVa mids & ribbons would be sensational! But I think I will get lower bass from the 2x 15" sealed subs that I will be adding to my Frankenpans, in the new house.
        
        Regards,
        Andy
        
        Edits: 05/07/15
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Roger Gustavsson 23:36:52 05/07/15 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by andyr on May 07, 2015 at 13:11:41
        
        The I-D has directional information from all three speaker drivers and these drivers are sitting far from each other. Remember, the basses operates all the way up to 1.1 kHz and there is just a first order roll-offabove that. The Tympani IV and IVa have far better focus. As I see it, the I-D basses are okey but need a midrange driver (like the IIIA or IIIB) to sit close to the tweeter. The Tympani push-pull tweeters are certainly not up to the ribbon drivers but are not that bad. Just wish they had thinner Mylar, thin foil conductors and a more open area in front of the diaphragm. I think a wider ribbon driver like Apogee used would be fine with the Tympani basses, crossed over at 500 Hz or so.
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Satie 03:54:51 05/08/15 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Roger Gustavsson on May 07, 2015 at 23:36:52
        
        T1 only produces sharp images if you arrange it in an equidistant arc with all the drivers aimed at the listener and at the same distance. Not that diffuse imaging is a terrible thing, but the term "big violin" did come from listening to Tympanis.
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Norman M 08:27:57 05/08/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Satie on May 08, 2015 at 03:54:51
        
        "Big violin", Little Red Riding Hood: 'Grandmother, what a big violin you have', Wolf: 'all the better for you to hear me with'.
        
        I think it's possible for me to find recordings in my collection where the violin is normal sized, and even some where it's too small. If a violin's contribution to a recording is of interest, but if it sounds as if its coming from a seat in the rear of the upper balcony, I'd rather hear it sounding 'big'. Subscribed to a chamber music series, listening from my favored seating location, and then coming home to listen to recordings of the same composition(s), my Tympanis made the violin sound too small.
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Satie 12:04:34 05/09/15 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Norman M on May 08, 2015 at 08:27:57
        
        I am going to guess that the small violin image is related to your amplification.
        
        I ran my fosgate amps in differential bridged mode (in which case they are acting like balanced amps) which resulted in all the images becoming smaller by quite a factor of 2 if not more. The soundstage also shrank and instruments no longer imaged outside the mid/tweeter panels. Went back to SE mode. Though not as spacious as my tube amp it was sufficiently satisfying.
        
        If you go back to the utube vid of the 1065 with the pianos all placed laterally then I have the outside pianos imaging outside the mid,tweet panels and the inside pianos imaging in the space between the tweeters. As the main L mic was placed farther to the high note wires of the 2nd piano from the left, it images closer to the mid tweeter panel and the 3rd piano (from the left) images as pulled further to the center as the R mic is closer to its high note wires.
        
        How did those image in your setup?
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Norman M 17:51:44 05/10/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Satie on May 09, 2015 at 12:04:34
        
        I will eventually get around to listening and using the YT video of that BWV 1065 performance. On YT there are also some laterally placed pianos performing Mozart's Concerto for 3 Pianos, K. 242 (Solti, Barenboim, Schiff). How well all the engineering involved allows these performances to be 'test' material could well be a different story.
        
        Perhaps of some use or interest, in that past I had some success in using the "Stereo Review Stepped Pan Test", and still own its original CD.
        
        Explanation:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojVxoxfm9-Q
        A sound sample:
        http://www.amazon.com/The-Stepped-Stereo-Test-Intro/dp/B00A6U9VO0
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Satie 22:58:33 05/10/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Norman M on May 10, 2015 at 17:51:44
        
        The main thing is that there is a visual record of the orchestra and soloists' placements and a known location for the mics as a reference so you can tell whether you are getting bending of the soundstage or foreshortening and also see whether it is related to the mic locations. The quality of live performance recordings is highly variable but has one serious positive: that it is not an artificial construct of the mixing console from fake panned instruments with their individual mics and tracks.
        
        RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... - Norman M 09:15:23 05/11/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "diffuse imaging"?? ... posted by Satie on May 10, 2015 at 22:58:33
        
        I played the BWV 1065 link using an iPad, listening to the audio from its mini jack into my Tympani IV-As. Although the sound wasn't 'fabulous', it sufficed and played properly from L to R (and following its video). At times sound from the center two pianos was hard to place precisely.
        
        The sound from the Stepped Stereo Pan Test is said to be a "constant power pan which mimics the positioning generated by a studio console equipped with a precision sine/cosine pan pot ... and the level of the tones should remain constant", which is unlike four different pianos playing different parts of a concerto, which must of necessity be played at differing levels.
- RE: Tympani 1-D??? - Satie 20:27:27 05/06/15 (1)
  Check tweeter impedance if you can bypass the cap and listen for delam buzzes on the sweeps. I think warbles are going to show up damage better than a sine sweep.
  - RE: OK - thanks. I think I have some warble tones. nt - andyr 20:37:01 05/06/15 (0)
    .

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