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RE: another 1065 in lateral form

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In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Satie on May 02, 2015 at 12:21:49

Another suggestion is to use well recorded, natural guitar tracks. By this I mean ones which are actually recorded to sound like a real guitar in a real space, NOT the ten foot wide close miked guitars of almost all solo guitar recordings ( and don't get me started on twenty foot piano keyboards)

A good example Is Ray Brown/ Laurindo Almeida on their Moonlight Serenade album. Great tracks include Mondsheinsonate Round About Midnight, Laurindos, or Air.

Here the key is trying to integrate a well recoded guitar so that it sounds like one stable and realistic sized instrument. Larger speakers, spread further apart often have trouble here (while mini monitors often sail through with ease). I find these are tough tracks to separate a good from a great panel set up. The transients and high frequency sounds must be perfectly integrated with the Mids.

For example, on the Mondsheinsonate track, i should be able to hear Ray Brown's breathing, snuffling, and also hear the brushing of his body and bow on the bass positioned as one cohesive, stable instrument to the left of center stage. The bass should be subterranean, but not boomy.

Even more importantly though, I should hear Laurindo's guitar center right as a realistic sounding, stable guitar sized image with no waiver as it goes up and down in frequency across the speaker's crossovers. If there are any problems in the setup I hear wavering -- or the Mids will be on one side of the guitar and the highs on the other side. When everything is perfect the sound becomes one.

An even harder test track is Janos Starker -- suite for cello solo no 4 BWV 1010,

Here the various bow sounds and high frequencies have to integrate into the bass and midrange of the cello. Most set ups I have tried have the high frequencies spraying around the room, rather than integrating into the instrument.

And here are two other good and challenging guitar tracks:
Ottmar Liebert -- Along this Road Kono Michi
Lawrence Juber -- Fall of a Sparrow

Follow Ups:

RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Norman M 09:50:24 05/06/15 (10)
"An even harder test track is Janos Starker -- suite for cello solo no 4 BWV 1010"

That's just a lousy recording, Mercury Living Presence or not too much of the room has been recorded and not enough of the cello itself. In fact in my system, it nearly sounded 'out of phase' getting me up to check my system and then listening to my standard test recording. (Additionally, although unimportant it has a bad edit between 0:33 and 0:34 of the Praeludium, track #19.) I followed it up by listening to Yo Yo Ma's rendition for Sony, which I found to be a much superior recording having more sound from the body of the cello itself, instead of its surrounding environs. Perhaps if one's test involves hearing the studio over the cello, it is a good test recording, otherwise it 'stinks'.
- RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Swamis Cat 12:10:42 05/06/15 (9)
  "An even harder test track is Janos Starker -- suite for cello solo no 4 BWV 1010"
  
  Not to sound defensive, but I wasn't recommending it for sound quality. (Though I would recommend the above Ray Brown -- absolutely reference quality)
  
  I was recommending it specifically for the immense difficulty of getting the sounds to integrate into a cohesive whole. As I mentioned, it is extremely hard to keep the sounds of his body and bow from splashing all over the room. It is recorded with three omni mikes as per this summary;
  
  http://www.hdtracks.com/bach-j-s-suites-for-solo-cello-and-2-cello-sonatas
  
  I have lots of Cello recordings which I prefer or which I would use as reference demo discs. I use this one for system set up and dialing in. It is truly a torture test for large planars. The reference in this case is how good can I get it compared to other set ups. Any problems and I get a disaster.
  
  Here is another track which I recommend specifically for system set up. It is one I stumbled on while looking for something else. Yet it is simply the freakiest recording I have ever heard.
  
  Ronnie Jacobsen Down in Mississippi.
  
  The opening notes don't come from the front of the room. They emerge out of the rear left and rear right of the room. And this is still true if you turn and face the rear corners. I am not sure how this effect occurs. I am not sure if there is a Qsonic trick or what. Anyone else with streaming hear the effect? Anyone not hear it?
  - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Norman M 12:45:56 05/06/15 (6)
    "I was recommending it specifically for the immense difficulty of getting
    the sounds to integrate into a cohesive whole. As I mentioned, it is
    extremely hard to keep the sounds of his body and bow from splashing all
    over the room. It is recorded with three omni mikes as per this summary"
    
    IMO, (and as I wrote), I feel it sounds like it splashes all over the room because it sounds somewhat 'out of phase'. If one's system is out of phase, (and as Shure test records commonly indicated), it will have a "diffuse and directionless quality". If the product is out of phase it wouldn't matter how many, or which types of microphones were used in making the original recording. I'm not saying that this recording is out of phase, but it is 'phasey' sounding, having that diffuse directionless quality. If a recording *is* out of phase, and you happen to be listening using a pre-amp which has a mono button, engaging it results in silence. That makes me wonder if doing that with this particular recording will reduce its output any.
    - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 00:10:06 05/07/15 (5)
      They did the recordings in a very reverberant ballroom with the 3 mics too far off, the same set of sessions has his bach cello sonatas with the piano being more of a distinct image than less but Starker is swallowed in the reverberation. If you listen to just the finger noises on the neck then there is far less of a question of where Starker actually is.
      There is a similar problem with Bell's recording of Prokofiev sonatas in a reverberant church. All space and no distinct location to the violin.
      
      My sis loved playing the Bach suites in reverberant spaces like our orchestra's rehearsal room that used the players as the sole sound treatment. The effect is very similar to what you hear on the Starker - with all the reverberation going on you could not recognize where she was with your eyes closed.
      
      I wish someone would tell the artists that it does not sound to others.like they think it does The home listener does not have the violin stuck at his ear to make up for the smearing of everything in reverberations, and does not hear the violin from inside his head as musicians tend to.
      
      I don't think the recording is a failure in sound, I think the deliberate choice of venue is what you hear. The presence of so much hall sound is what Starker obviously wanted. It is also the kind of space the suites would have been performed in Bach's time.
      
      The DG recordings of Menuhin doing Beethoven Sonatas brings the opposite problem as you can tell with precision where he is as he dances around the piano and comes nearer and then farther to the mic closest to him. The space is much drier and the mics are placed fairly close to the performers.
      - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Norman M 03:20:25 05/07/15 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Satie on May 07, 2015 at 00:10:06
        
        Satie,
        Many thanks for your informative reply. Nonetheless I beg to differ with you in respect to one important regard. I tend to believe these works were performed in patron's drawing rooms much more often than in church venues and such recordings are all WET, when they should be dry!
        
        RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Norman M 11:01:09 05/07/15 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Norman M on May 07, 2015 at 03:20:25
        
        It doesn't seem that these 'Cello Suites' were dedicated to anyone, nor written for the purpose of performance anywhere. How many different individuals had a hand in the surviving manuscripts seems to be unknown. They could merely been an intellectual enterprise, and now a suitable subject for several Ph.D. theses, (more likely than not, they have):
        
        http://georgcello.com/bachcellosuites.htm
        
        That said, there is recording available performed by one its scholars at Amazon:
        
        http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Cello-Suites-Georg-Mertens/dp/B009RXMIKG/ref=sr_1_1_twi_2_mus?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1431019920&sr=1-1&keywords=mertens+bach+cello+suites
        
        Out of interest I will buy its CD release. The samples sound very nice as heard from my Tympanis. The snippets don't reveal any type of venue, almost sounding as an anechoic chamber, being *one* way I like it.
        
        This entire matter could be in one's head. I have the recording of the Starker Bach Suites, etc. from one of the MLP boxes (Volume 1?), but would have preferred being able to read the booklet which came with the original CD release. I haven't been able to find it on the 'net. Oh well, needless to say there's many more recordings worthy of our time and consideration.
        
        RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 12:11:09 05/07/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Norman M on May 07, 2015 at 11:01:09
        
        I have the CD booklet I can copy it for you if you want it
        
        it includes the reference for the recording location (Ballroom studio A at the fine arts recording building) 1963
        
        I like Starker's playing of the piece so I bear the defective sounding recording. I rarely care what the historically correct performance should be so long as the performance is emotionally convincing and hopefully well recorded. So I don't appreciate a romantic performer trying to do a stylistically PC baroque piece - I much prefer him to play it as it resonates with him. I look more for expression rather than interpretation.
        
        One of my favorite shockers to play for people is Debussy playing some of his pieces transferred off an Edison roll. He plays in the heavy warm toned Brahms style on an obviously German piano. Not a sign of the light delicacy modern Debussy interpretations entail. He obviously thought himself a Romantic composer. Perhaps we should try out letting Tchaikovsky/Rachmaninoff specialists record Debussy.
        
        RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Norman M 13:27:12 05/07/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Satie on May 07, 2015 at 12:11:09
        
        Satie,
        
        Thanks so very much for that information. Please don't go to the trouble of sending me a copy of the booklet.
        "Ballroom studio A at the fine arts recording building) 1963" was the essential information I was hoping to see. Still Studio A in that Ballroom could have many differing qualities. Even somewhat like the Manhattan Center for Columbia, the Great Hall for the Vienna Philharmonic, and the Berlin Philharmonie for the BP. Different engineers make those halls sound quite differently, in many cases I wouldn't even expect that they were one and the same. e.g., take DG's Levine Mozart Symphonies with the Vienna Philharmonic, all in Der Grosser Saal, some sound very differently than do others.
        
        Unfortunately for me when recordings have undesirable qualities they can get in the way of my appreciation of a composition or interpretation. I just can't enjoy listening past it. Upon continued re-listening to the MLP Starker/Bach Suites, I find the recording isn't really so 'poor', even though I would have preferred it being somewhat different, i.e., more like that provided for Yo Yo Ma by Sony.
        
        RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 10:18:18 05/07/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Norman M on May 07, 2015 at 03:20:25
        
        If you look at the halls of palaces of Bach's sponsors throughout his career then you see that the ballroom studio is not uncharacteristic. What is wrong is that there are no people in the room and thus the overwhelming reverberation.
  - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Swamis Cat 12:36:00 05/06/15 (1)
    Btw, the Yo Yo Ma Bach does sound great.
    - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 14:48:35 05/06/15 (0)
      For noisy mono but a different interpretation try the Casals recordings - and the Enescu recordings of the violin suites
RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 20:58:40 05/05/15 (6)
With you on the bulk of guitar recordings, all fingers no body. Unfortunately, my own recordings of guitar did not fare better. The direct placement just inches in front of the body was the only way to capture it at all in a natural space. too far off and the guitar is replaced by room reverberations and no feel of guitar finger ticks or body.

I don't mind the mammoth piano recordings too much - however caricature like they come out to be.

I will look for that recording. I only have parkening Segovia and Bream and the bit of guitar in jazz ensembles and as chanteuse accompaniment.

Thanks for reminding me of the Starker Bach Suites - have not listened to them in a while.

Speaking of Jazz for imaging, there are the Willy Mays Time Life series of his renderings of Big Band classics. Interpretations are not always great but the soundstage is spectacular and dynamics are very impressive. Much fun for "hilarious type music with lots of instruments"
- http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Swing-Era-1936-1943-Time-Life-Re (Open in New Window)
- RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Swamis Cat 08:18:27 05/06/15 (5)
  I am playing Billy May as I type (streaming is awesome). "Hilarious" indeed!
  
  All the above guitar/cello suggestions should be easy to find on the various streaming services.( I find their catalogues overlap almost completely)
  
  One company which tends to do a great job with real instruments in real space is MA records with their single omni mike set ups. They however can't be streamed, except their drop dead amazing Sera Una Noche aka La Segunda recordings.
  - Look up Billy May The Peanut Vendor - Satie 00:30:33 05/17/15 (0)
    I really like that Cubano jazz
    
    Here is the original El Manisero
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj7NfrrnaKE
    
    The Perez Prado version (like the Original?) is much slower paced.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc8S35k-SJs and the recording is somewhat topless still good imaging.
    
    This one, Prado's Mambo 8 is from an optical film recording for a movie much better and much less lost on top
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Qnsk56_g4
    
    Another version with Cuban Valdez clan's youngest Jazz pianist in a pretty nice recording
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TWPYXMIE9g
  - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 09:22:05 05/06/15 (3)
    My Audio PC is generally not connected since it is busy converting everything to DSD so the Windows OS is stripped down and there is absolutely no security. So I don't do any streaming on it.
    
    I use my work PC for streaming and I feed it into the other PCM DAC (even uTube comes off great) but not like saved recordings redone into DSD. So I don't do that very often.
    
    Which streaming services do you use?
    - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Swamis Cat 11:18:18 05/06/15 (2)
      I first subscribed to MOG a year and a half ago. they were then bought by Beats, and then Apple bought them. The trouble here is that it is MP3 320. The sound is slightly dark.
      
      To improve quality I shifted to Qobuz, but I couldn't get it to work right and hated the French translation issues (how do you say, unsubscribe in French?) . Then when Deezer became available I subscribed to them at CD quality. I have never cancelled my Beats yet though.
      
      Supposedly Tidal will soon be available with MQA quality. I heard a demo of MQA last week in the Meridian room at AXPONA and it sounded great. Lots of unfamiar parts to the equation though.
      
      http://www.techhive.com/article/2866274/meridian-audio-s-mqa-technology-is-the-best-product-at-ces-so-far.html
      - RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Satie 16:09:57 05/09/15 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Swamis Cat on May 06, 2015 at 11:18:18
        
        Did you have to use a Sonos piece to make the HD Deezer work?
        
        Edits: 05/09/15
        
        RE: another 1065 in lateral form - Swamis Cat 09:04:24 05/10/15 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: another 1065 in lateral form posted by Satie on May 09, 2015 at 16:09:57
        
        Yes, I originally used a laptop to stream MOG. When my laptop broke I switched to a Sonus streamer.

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