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In Reply to: RE: The Limage works. posted by Bigjimsguitars on April 15, 2015 at 14:10:16
Here's the H/K Limage from the guy himself:
"PANEL SPEAKER PLACEMENT & ROOM COUPLING 15-4-2007
Few of us, except perhaps the rare species of odd fossils of the pre-historic era, would have questioned the paramount importance of speaker placement nowadays. What is more debatable is where and how the speaker positions are to be determined. I have been a faithful follower of the room-coupling school and I believe that should be the best way out.
Room coupling, I am quite positive by now, really goes beyond the deliberations over direct verses reflected sound sources, because the focal point remains relatively constant irrespective of what damping treatments we have on the wall surfaces in any given room. This focal point does not seem to move until the dimension of the room is drastically changed.
To achieve effective room coupling, one has to locate the focal spot of the room first. There is a simple yet effective method to find this spot but I shall come back to that a while later. Every room has its own peaks and valleys acoustically. The peaks are resonances and the valleys are just the opposite, the suck-outs as a result of phase cancellation. I used to believe the coupling point is the spot where multiple resonances gravitate since it clocks the highest sound level throughout the audio band. If we look at it the other way round, however, the focal point of the room should more correctly be taken as the spot where phase cancellation is the lowest.
When the speakers are placed along this focal spot, phase cancellation would be at its minimal obtainable within the room and the system will then be able to resolve, with the best of fidelity and the least of distortion, the myriads of spatial information contained in the recording. The width and depth, the ambience, the layering and instrument placements etc. will all spring to life. Proper sound staging, no doubt, has much to do with this phase coherency across the audible frequency range. We all know what would happen if one speaker is inverted in phase—there will be no imaging, no soundstage, and even no sense of direction. This is the result of serious phase cancellation. Even if the speakers are properly in phase, however, there would still be a fair amount of cancellation depending on where the speakers are placed.
Ideally speaking, the room should be symmetrical in overall shape and the speakers symmetrically placed along the lengths of the rectangle. If one speaker is close to the side wall while the other is in the middle of the room, a rather common sight given the popular L-shape layout of sitting rooms in HK, there exist more chances for cancellation taking place at various frequencies, rendering the imaging blurred, stage collapsed and ambience lost.
Once the speakers are coupled to the room, the two merge into one. The room becomes an effective extension of the speakers which in turn would cease to exist visually. Tuning for solid imaging then becomes much easier. Human ears locate the sound source by detecting the time difference of direct sound arriving at the ears. To achieve three dimensional imaging, all we have to do is to cut down secondary reflections from overwhelming the direct sound. While on this subject, I like to point out that I have tried the live-end-dead-end approach and it did not work to my satisfaction. I believe speakers are designed with the average western style living room in mind where upholstery, curtain, carpet and furniture all contribute to an acoustic environment which is neither too dead nor too live, but moderate throughout. This is something worth considering when we set about fabricating our listening area. It is not uncommon to find that the more elaborately contrived the HiFi room is, the less satisfactory it often turns out.
All in all, phase coherence does appear to be the key and with this key we stand every good chance to unleash a completely new dimension of audio realism.
*****
Here comes the core—the action part of the whole thing, a method that has proven to work wonders for me over the last 30 odd years.
Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly. Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.
Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point.
Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot. You've just coupled your speakers to your room. What is left, may be the crucial part yet, is to find the perfect stereo seat. As the name suggests, you'll have to look for the widest stereo soundstage again along the aisle, between the speakers. If one side of the room does not give you the best definition and soundstage, try the other side. I was the one having my seat moved over to the wrong side of the room to get the best out of my present system.
Final note, if you are unable to find the focal spot despite trekking up and down diligently the whole afternoon, your room dimension is probably too bad to be a listening room. Try another room if you have one. If not you'll have to move house.
Ivan Li (Limage)"
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to
2.5R's
Follow Ups:
Harry Pearson was promoting the Rule of Thirds in the 90s. Which works about perfectly in my room as well.
So what exactly does that rule say, and why should it be a good one?
Set the speakers one third the length of the room out from the wall. Similarly, space the speakers laterally into thirds. Also avoid sitting in the middle of the room as nulls tend to live there.
Final placement was determined empirically by measuring bass response in the bottom three octaves. In my 26' long room, I found about eight feet out from the wall provided the most linear response. As for lateral placement, the U-1s with 90 degree panels work best slightly closer to the walls and toed out. My listening couch is about a third a way out into the room from the opposite wall.
Here's the third octave results:
Look Ma, no hands!
Err no, I meant to write, Look Ma, no walls!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlIk19CbBI
The Piazoa piece at the end was something else.
How did that image in your setup?
I am getting close miked piano in heavily damped rec studio
Compare that to her simply miked Rubinstein competition recitals also on a Steinway (flugel?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCHFLCBKrTk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzJCgYPQcWY
I agree with your assesment, excepting of course that it has another dimension superimposed upon it otherwise we wouldn't be hearing birds chirping.
with the garage system. Tall line sources sound amazingly clear from a distance - like from my neighbor's driveway. Good thing they like the music. :)
E-Stat:
I also like the rule of 3rds as it has worked for me in two different rooms.
Jim
ARS VS-110
Customized Bottlehead Foreplay II
Preamp
Magnepan 2.5R's
B&W ASW 300 Subs
Ah Tjoeb Tube CD Player
w/Siemens E288CC's
MaggieMate X/O's from subs to
2.5R's
I can't figure out at all what the instructions actually mean.
"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly."
Which is the lengths of the room? Which wall is the back wall? Which direction are the speakers facing? What is L' and L?
" Then play some vocal music, the hilarious type, the more instruments the better.
Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point"
Is the "mid-line between the speakers" the line connecting the speakers, or the perpendicular bisecting the line connecting the speakers?
"Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot"
What does that mean? Where do I move the speakers to? Do I change where they used to be?
I think I need a picture. Is it clear to everybody else but me?
Well I also have read this slooowly 5 times now, and I just don't get it.
"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall.." -> really; 1/3 from the BACKwall, not the FRONTwall which is behind the speakers???
"...and Ľ the breadth roughly" -> what does this mean?
"Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point. Mark this focal point and drag your speakers over the lateral line crossing the spot" -> so basically this focal point is on the other side of the room, and speakers are dragged to there. But if I understood correctly, they are now quite close to other wall but still facing it? Or should I turn the speakers around at some stage of this process??
I also would love to have a clear picture or such about this process, it just sounds really complicated now :-o
Sorry I missed that - that is 1/3 from the front wall (behind the speakers) though most folks end up with the speakers further out. In some cases pulling out to the point of having the speakers more than 1/2 way into the room works better.. Particularly if there are early reflections off a rack or something else on the front wall.
In any case, there is no point in turning the speakers the other way.
"In any case, there is no point in turning the speakers the other way".
So could you please try to explain a bit in more detail how could I find that focal point, where sound would be "filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church"? I just can't understand those instructions :-o
I initially had some troubles setting up the Limage. I discovered that I wasn't using sufficiently "hilarious type" music. When I switched to the Reference Recordings hi definition vocal renditions of Wierd Al Yankovitch everything snapped into place.*
On a more serious (less hilarious) note, I really need to correct for vertical dimension. My 3.7is have never been perfectly vertical on my deep carpeting. They lean way back in an awkward way which my IIIa's don't. Thanks for the tip Satie.
* I always assumes a Google translate issue on this word.
The instructions I used for the Limage/HK setup was as follows
1) Bring the speakers out from the front wall 40% the length of the room
2) Place tweeters on the inside
3) Place side of speaker 12" from side wall
4) Face speakers straight ahead
5) Sit one to two feet from rear wall
This is my setup
Alan
Edits: 04/17/15
"5) Sit one to two feet from rear wall"
I have always understood that there should be about the same distance between listener and that back wall, than between the speakers and the front wall?
For the sake of argument, let's assume there is no back wall at all.
Does that imply that Maggies couldn't then sound their best? I don't think so, AFAIAC a back wall only detracts from the listening experience, and the further away it is, all the better. In fact in some persons ear pinnae shield any contribution from the back wall. Are their listening experiences any the less?
I don't think so, but if there is a back wall, it surely matters what is the destination from the listener to it.
I'm not absolutely certain as to carry-over to home listening experiences but when picking a seat to hear music at live events it's advised (1) not to sit beneath an overhang, as under a balcony and (2) distant from any rear wall.
I think the reasoning is all too obvious. I can vouch for #2 from my experiences.
I would say just try it since it works in the context of the Limage setup You are using the room's reflections in this setup more so than you would be in other placements so if you can lay aside the principle of back wall avoidance for this and just try it then you may be surprised by the outcome. The distance from the speaker to the back wall in this setup is significantly less than it is at "normal" 1/3 setups so that backwall reflections immediately behind you are not going to do as much damage to timing. You can experiment with absorption on the back wall behind you to see whether these near reflections are useful or counterproductive.
"The distance from the speaker to the back wall..."???
Since you have the speaker pulled up nearly half way into the room as opposed to more traditional placement where the speaker is typically no more than 1/3 of the way into the room and usually less. So it is closer to the back wall than usual.
You are also trying to retain a sufficient distance from the listening seat to the speakers.
Ok, thanks. But is it really so that the listening position can be only 2-3 feet from the back wall?
I think most folks who try the Limage setup end up with their seat at 1-2 ft from the back wall. We had a bit of a debate about seat back height that ended up with a consensus that you want the back of your seat well below ear height so that backwall reflections reach you - at least in the Limage setup.
.
You are correct. I have edited the post
Alan
But hey, the mention about the back wall in the original instruction might actually be correct:
"Have the speakers placed along the lengths of the room, about Ľ to 1/3 from the back wall, and Ľ the breadth roughly. Now walk slowly to and fro along the mid-line between the speakers, from one end of the room to the other and then back, may be several times to get the mind set (if the speakers are standing low, you may well have to crawl). Somewhere along the aisle, you would hear the sound getting louder and at the same time it rises above your head, filling the ceiling as if you've entered a Gothic church. Bingo, that is it, the focal point."
Think about it; if speakers are 1/2 to 1/3 from the back wall, BUT they are pointing against the front wall, you could then find the focal point for the speakers near the front wall. Then you just drag the speakers to the focal point, flip them around again pointing to the back wall, and that's where they should be. Am I right? The instruction is a bit vague, since it does not say anything about the direction that speakers are pointing on.
that "40%" is an approximation! :-))
If the speaker (or the bass panel mylar, to be exact) was in the 'Golden Ratio' position, it would be 38.2% out from the front wall (and therefore 61.8% out from the back wall).
Regards,
Andy
I think you can start from ahender's list and tweak from there. Not every room that can handle the Limage setup successfully will actually do that "cathedral" effect. When tweaking start with tweaking the position from the front wall (the one you are facing) bringing the speakers up nearer to you in small increments of 1" or so, just keep the speakers perpendicular to the sidewalls and at the same distance. You should reach a point where the soundstage "snaps together" and where further advancing the speakers makes the effect fall apart. You can try then to see if you get the "cathedral effect" while doing your "monkey walk" or scooting too and fro on a skateboard.
When you are done with that then go on to balancing the bass by reducing the width of the slot between the wall and the panel to increase bass and pulling away from the sidewall to reduce bass.
When this is done you can try to increase image precision with minor toe in.. If any is needed it will still likely be less than 1".
If you have the slightest reason to suspect that your floors are uneven then use a bubble level to guide you to set the speakers vertically. The slightest departure from vertical will damage or even entirely scramble the soundstage and give you lopsided height cues..
Hi,
if possible, I would like to see mating pictures of H/K Limage's room.
I'm making some new stands for the Timpany IDs and I'd like to understand how to optimize their position/listening.
Thank you
Rudy
TIMPANI ID & QUAD ESL63
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