- Posted by Timbo in Oz (A) on September 09, 2012 at 14:44:02
Thanks for all the advice so far, Kent and others, and TIA for more thoughts.Went with a close to side-wall arrangement, higher 'stands'* than the Aricicis (which await steel beams) angled in to cross in front of my nose, and about 102 inches from each ear, and a teeny bit less between the 63s' centres, and not by design either only measure the separation an hr ago.
* square solid timber coffee tables with beams between the legs.
I'm sitting in front of the rear diff/sorber and about 1.5 - 2feet from the rear wall and window.
They stand towards the forward edge of the two large DIY on-wall 2-inch gap absorber/diffusers. Bass goes deep when it's there, hall sound / bass-noises very clear. No audible floor reflection/interference dip. I will measure, one day.
It's an L-shaped room and the RH spkr's edge is about 8 inches back from the corner into the right hand toe of the L. There are five diff/sorbers, plus 5 small cushions in the room's ceiling corners.
QUAD 44 and 606, with my Rotel CDP and the tubed 'tuner.' On three consecutive concert broadcasts yesterday (two direct feeds) and on tape of live e.g. Berlin Phil at the Proms doing a Brahms piano concerto? The sound was revealingly different for each, hall and miking and the right level was easy to read. Also, absolute polarity was startlingly different, the piano almost disappeared one way around.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
11:00am
Direct broadcast from the Concert Hall of the Queensland performing Arts Centre presented by Mairi Nicolson.
Brisbane Festival 2012
Vienna Boys Choir
Pergolesi
Stabat Mater
Trad arr Wirth
Gaudete
Orff
Carmina Burana: O Fortuna
Eybler
Omnes de Saba venient
Ferdinand Schubert arr Wirth
Regina Coeli, Op 1
Mozart
Solemn Vespers of a Confessor, K339: Laudate Dominum
Schubert
Psalm 23, D706
Schafer
Miniwanka (The Moments of Water)
Elena Kats-Chernin
Land of Sweeping Plains
J Strauss II arr Wirth
Voices of Spring, Waltz, Op 410
J Strauss II arr Wirth
Tritsch-Tratsch Polka, Op 214An ABC Classic FM production.
Sound engineer: Costa Zouliou.
Producer: Matthew Dewey.Sunday Afternoon Concert with Marian Arnold
1:00pm
Concert programmed by Derek Jones.
UK SUMMER
BBC Proms 2012
BBC Presenter Andrew McGregor
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra
Yefim Bronfman, piano
Sir Simon Rattle, conductor
Brahms
Piano Concerto No 2 in B flat, Op 83
47'02
Lutosławski
Symphony No 3
29'35
Dvořák
Slavonic Dance, Op 72 No 7
3'08
Recorded in the Royal Albert Hall, London.
Courtesy of the BBC.The sound of this was no way as good as the live feeds before and after. probably data reduced (lossy) digital.
Sunday Live with Paul Bevan
3:00pm
Direct broadcast from the Harold Lobb Concert Hall, Newcastle University Conservatorium of Music.
Paul Goodchild, trumpet, cornet and flugel horn
David Miller, piano
Martinů
Sonatine
Alfred Hill
Sonata for cornet and piano
John Nottle
TAXI! Caprice for trumpet and piano
Mozart
Fantasia in C minor, K475
Hubeau
Sonata for trumpet and piano
Poulenc
Eiffel Tower PolkaAn ABC Classic FM production.
Sound engineer: Christian Huff-Johnston.
Producer: Gregory Dobbs.-------------------------------------------------------------
The Vienna boys choir was just wonderful, I'm an ex-cathedral-chorister myself.
I know the engineer for the later concert, he favours simple stereo and sometimes uses ORTF with two omnis coincident with the cardioids. 'something' Pack Is all I can recall for what it's called.
A bit more tweaking to get the centre images a bit tighter, I think. Cross them further out in front of me IE more angle in, or less?They sure do tell you when you've got the scale wrong.
I'm aware that I want much finer volume control and larger knob range. Even with the 606 I've moved from 5.0V outs to the 1.6V sockets and will try the 500MV ones today.
I am loving the bass and tilt controls on the 44.
I think my tube pre needs fettling so I'll have to put up with the 44 until it comes back.
Hmmmmm. are a pair of 989s in my future, or a pair of the just now OLD model 2905s? OR will I build the Aussie ELS kit?
I also need to hear my friend Doug Flynn's 57 fed by OTLs (search here under amps for QUADS). And see how much of a one seat only they are.
With the 63's you'd need to be married, I ween.Will their prices fall, or are the 2912s just another upmarket move?
So, ..... are they better than the Audiosphere Model 3's? Just as quiet, bigger images, well, they are further apart and up rather higher so that's probably a given. They can't play as loud and they don't have the sphere's bass slam. Are they clear or what? The bass is very clear and tight.
I have two pairs of the 3's and will be using them distributed to do low-bass below 120hz, soon ;-)! Either facing their 24" circle pavers with an inch or so gap (they should give a lower port tuning by that alone) or close to the floor but 'vertical'. The latter would not require tweeter-ectomies and four MDF hole blockers, so that will be the start point.
I am still considering using one of my modified LEAK St20s e.g. 20wpc 20-20k (Pentode) or 16wpc UL for my main pair from 120Hz up if I can't afford 989s or equiv. and down the track.
The sphere-woofers will be fed by a HK 801 100wpc SS amp, rebuilt with rather better self-protection. Along with 2nd order eq/assist and cone-bounce ELF filtering.
Once again, TIA.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Edits: 09/09/12 09/09/12Follow Ups:
- Can I suggest you arrange an audition of some 57s. :-)) ... - andyr 04:01:04 09/11/12
(1)
- In Reply to: RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 09, 2012 at 14:44:02
I heard a 57-based system a couple of weekends ago and it was magnificent! :-)) Not perfect - it needed some supertweeters for that - but the owner had them:
* fitted into some metal, braced stands, and
* mounted on top of some OB subs (twin 12", servo-controlled drivers) - so they certainly did not lack bass! :-))
They changed my opinion of these old Quads.
Regards,
Andy
- RE: Can I suggest you arrange an audition of some 57s. :-)) ... - Timbo in Oz 11:20:45 09/11/12
(0)
- In Reply to: RE: Can I suggest you arrange an audition of some 57s. :-)) ... posted by andyr on September 11, 2012 at 04:01:04
Hi Andy,
I intend to, but I am told their sweet spot is about 1 person wide, even when positioned very widely and angles in. This would not be acceptable as my wife and I like to listen together. The Audiosphere Model 3 have a sweet spot about 1.8 people wide. I am told the 63 'family' can also do two listeners who like each other.
It's also our lounge-dining room, L-shaped.
The widest I can get any pair of 'decent-bandwidth enclosure type' speaker's centres apart is about 9.5 feet, and less than 9ft with ELS. With these fairly directional dipoles I still need to i) have them wide enough for the above, and ii) with their sides close to the wall to get good bass iii) AND angled in enough to cross in front of me/us. And iv) there's the desirable idea of listening within the near field, which further reduces the width of the sweet spot. An 8 ft or less listening distance.
So far, angling the 63s in too much increases the amount of early rear reflections, despite my primitive diff/sorbers. ;-)
I am told the 63 family can do two listeners who like each other. ? Well not yet or not quite, so far.
I might even be able to persuade one person to bring a pair of 57s over. And I have some ribbon tweeters.
..... we'll see.
For deep bass I'll see how it goes with four Audiosphere 3s, distributed 'en arc' with the ELS and one behind me/us - for 120 (or lower) to ~30hz. IF I really need it, for a while anyway. :-)!
Dipole bass? IF I decide dipole bass under each ELS is vital. Two ~ 15 to 18 inch high open baffles/H-frames each with four of the cheap blue-coned Pyle 12" woofers. Arranged 2 by 2 clamshelled working into a central slot (ala Celestion 6000). Likely in H-frames with a slot through the middle, open to each side. The H-frame aspect reducing the amount of Eq required.
Electronics for bass? A 100wpc HK 801, some Eq / Qts Rs, ELF hp filtering and a steep low-pass. Shallow high-pass on the ELS if any, as I will be experimenting to fill in any floor-reflection-dip I can hear / measure.
At the distances involved I'm hoping the band-pass of the floor level bass drive will be down below the dip, and that I'll be able to stop the ELS driving the dip or do some overlap/eq. Again, we will see.
My possibly defunct plan for 'my last house-sized speakers' would use stacked spheres, avoiding the dip was built-in to the approach.
The Aussie ELS kits are a real possibility, still.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
- RE: Can I suggest you arrange an audition of some 57s. :-)) ... - Timbo in Oz 11:20:45 09/11/12
(0)
- RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. - kentaja 08:16:42 09/10/12
(0)
- In Reply to: RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 09, 2012 at 14:44:02
Sounds like you are well on your way to getting the speakers tweaked into the room. I prefer to sit a little closer.
Build the Aussie ESL speaker. You have the ESL-63. Beyond the extra bass panels of the 989, 2905, 2912, all the speakers are identical. I personally have never been that crazy about the extra bass panels. More bass energy into the room for sure but the bass is not nearly as good as the smaller speakers and the additional bass panels really jacks with the rest of the speaker's performance.
- RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. - Zombie 23:03:31 09/09/12
(6)
- In Reply to: RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 09, 2012 at 14:44:02
Best tweak you can do to that setup is to chuck out the 44.
- That will take a while. - Timbo in Oz 01:33:56 09/10/12
(5)
- In Reply to: RE: Loaner 63s finally set up. A bit of tweaking advice, please. posted by Zombie on September 09, 2012 at 23:03:31
And I think I'll be looking at +/- 6db tilt controls, and sensible bass boost with an ELF filter say at around 15Hz, to add to my valve line stage.
I will have more than enough line stage gain.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
- RE: That will take a while. - Zombie 01:43:01 09/10/12
(4)
- In Reply to: RE: That will take a while. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 10, 2012 at 01:33:56
Naaa, just get a Quad 99 preamp.
- ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. - Timbo in Oz 03:46:02 09/10/12
(3)
- In Reply to: RE: That will take a while. posted by Zombie on September 10, 2012 at 01:43:01
You missed that bit.
If you have nothing to add about getting dipoles to work, in a smallish L-shaped room, just drop it, eh?
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
- RE: ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. - Zombie 03:49:27 09/10/12
(2)
- In Reply to: RE: ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 10, 2012 at 03:46:02
Thought that was a moniker, mate
- I don't think you comprehended the entire post at all. - Timbo in Oz 04:32:30 09/10/12
(1)
- In Reply to: RE: ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. posted by Zombie on September 10, 2012 at 03:49:27
The loaner aspect had been prefigured on this forum at least once, and I wrote above about getting my own pair.
So, I believe you rushed in with an effectively off-topic post, because you have a low opinion of QUAD components. Like the 44, 606, 99 and etc.
You didn't even address my pleasure in the tilt / bass boost functions, and still haven't even after I highlighted them.I'm a bit ambivalent about Quad's electronics boxes ultimate sound quality myself, but find their features and usability hard to duck, along with a limited bandwidth at least down at ELF and for most ELS based systems in particular.
A good example is the Merlin 2-way floor standers which use a 2nd order assisted alignment added to reflex box, so that the tuned port and driver are fed a higher signal around their bandpass, but the ELF is steeply rolled off to cut cone bounce below the bandpass. The technique was famously applied to the EV Interface series of 2-way bookshelves, which came with a box to put in your tape loop / after the pre-amp.
IME if you keep TN&D low enough and have reserves of gain, truly useful tone controls are musically benign.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Edits: 09/10/12
- RE: I don't think you comprehended the entire post at all. - Zombie 05:38:51 09/10/12
(0)
- In Reply to: RE: I don't think you comprehended the entire post at all. posted by Timbo in Oz on September 10, 2012 at 04:32:30
Dunno, have had QC22/II, 33/303, 34 and 44/405-II and now a 99/909 with ESL-63s and the 99pre is by far the best. If you like the tilt, it's the one to go for...
Edits: 09/10/12
- RE: I don't think you comprehended the entire post at all. - Zombie 05:38:51 09/10/12
(0)
- I don't think you comprehended the entire post at all. - Timbo in Oz 04:32:30 09/10/12
(1)
- RE: ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. - Zombie 03:49:27 09/10/12
(2)
- ahmm, it's a loaner system!?. - Timbo in Oz 03:46:02 09/10/12
(3)
- RE: That will take a while. - Zombie 01:43:01 09/10/12
(4)
- That will take a while. - Timbo in Oz 01:33:56 09/10/12
(5)
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