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How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s

99.60.179.224

scruffy_

It seems like upgrading the crossover was very popular several years ago, but seems to have lost steam over the years.

Follow Ups:

I haven't bothered - Feanor 15:54:43 09/16/12 (5)
Maybe there would be some small improvement, but I've never felt the necessity.

... Shostakovich fan
- RE: I haven't bothered - robss 16:42:25 09/16/12 (4)
  Actually, the difference can be quite dramatic, and was as I heard when I simply replaced the X-O (stock values) with better parts. Lots of areas to make improvements. Anything I did before the X-O mod was heard as little change (upgrading the fuse for ex.).
  Happy listening.
  - RE: I haven't bothered - pictureguy 19:11:57 09/20/12 (3)
    What caps and inductors did you use?
    Any other changes to simplify the wiring?
    Too much is never enough
    - RE: I haven't bothered - robss 08:31:42 09/22/12 (2)
      It was my intention to try several versions of a X-O for my 1.6s, but I have stopped at the end of the first version for now. I used as close to stock values as I could, but changed all other parts for better quality (according to feedback from those that had tried). For caps., I used Obligatto(sp) oil, for inductor Sledgehammer (at the stock value it lowered the DCR), for wire I used what Peter Gunn used c. 2006 or so (DH Labs?). I did not use fuses. The terminals were changed to WBT. This new X-O was mounted on a board outside the speaker and sat on the floor with isolating feet between. Finally, due to the amp. I was using then, a Simaudio int. amp. (the i5.3), I used a pair of Speltz Autoformers at just about their lowest values (~1.7 or so).
      
      All of these changes made for notedly better, and deeper, bass and less wearing highs, better resolution all around (most notedly at lower volumes) and more. Note, the mylar faced the listener (as stock). This work was before I changed the stock feet out and did other DIY-style mods. At this point I removed the "sock" from only one of the speakers and listened critically. With mono recordings it was obvious that the sock had been blocking the UF clarity; I removed both socks and have enjoyed "listening naked" since then.
      
      It the end, my work made this good stock speaker into an entirely different sounding one (to my ears) for the better. In retrospect, the one change that made the biggest improvements came from the change of the caps.
      - I have the socks off of my speakers too. NT - scruffy_ 10:20:29 09/22/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I haven't bothered posted by robss on September 22, 2012 at 08:31:42
        
        RE: I have the socks off of my speakers too. - scruffy_ 10:31:14 09/22/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I have the socks off of my speakers too. NT posted by scruffy_ on September 22, 2012 at 10:20:29
        
        I'm also using the Obbligato Oil caps.
RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 06:40:34 09/08/12 (0)
Magnepan found that there was an audible improvement with new caps in blind testing, so if anyone is wondering whether it can make a difference that should put it to rest.

As I recall -- this is something I read in a magazine many years ago -- they weren't able to detect an improvement with air core inductors in double blind testing. I don't know what the conditions of the test were.

Given the problems with DCR, I'd be inclined to do the cap mod and leave the inductors alone. Actually, I'd be inclined to bi amp and use a PLLXO, but if I were thinking of doing that I'd probably take the money and trade them in for a pair of 1.7's instead. :-)
Do people believe that a crossover upgrade is a BIG improvement in sound? nt - scruffy_ 21:15:49 09/07/12 (6)
- RE: Do people believe that a crossover upgrade is a BIG improvement in sound? nt - josh358 06:55:29 09/08/12 (0)
  Well, Magnepan's listening panels were able to hear the new caps in blind tests. I think they require unanimity. So at the very least, it will be obvious. That doesn't necessarily make it huge. Like any tweak, I think it has to be put in perspective: you can enjoy the speakers stock for a lifetime. They'll still sound great without.
- RE: Do people believe that a crossover upgrade is a BIG improvement in sound? nt - JBen 23:15:37 09/07/12 (1)
  Yes, very very much so. Keep in mind Andy's conditions. They are key.
  
  I will add that it all may be best appreciated when the frame strength's are improved. A weak frame will mask some of the improvement of even the best possible xover system (or other component upgrades).
  
  In my case the ability to measure, from the start, became a substantial help in making sure that I was not building good tweaks on top of illusory ones. We all are prone to believe that something that we just changed sounds better...only to find otherwise later. Measuring insured that I had quantified departure points. I does not "fix" things but it may confirm why you do/don't like a given state of the system. These day, a measuring outfit is cheap.
  - RE: Do people believe that a crossover upgrade is a BIG improvement in sound? nt - pictureguy 21:08:47 09/20/12 (0)
    with the exception of thinking real wood.....without metalic bridgework should work best, I find it amazing that someone actually took the time to measure anything. My personal bias is for maximum rigidity and least mass. Clever design rules over brute force.
    
    Good for you and keep it up. While everything that can be measured doesn't matters....and everything that that matters can't be measured, I still think that associating audible, repeatable changes with measurement is the obvious way to go. Enough of that and a theory will evolve allowing for predictions, the results of which can later be verified.
    
    Recommend some stuff to help people measure, please.
    Do you have an accelerometer?
    Too much is never enough
- Yes - IMO a significant upgrade. ... - andyr 21:40:59 09/07/12 (2)
  However, you need to:
  * have a mentality that drives you to improve your sound, and
  * be interested in DIY, and
  * have a mindset that means you are able to undertake unfamiliar tasks competently,
  to mess around with the XOs ... and quite a few people here don't have all these attributes.
  My opinion is that - apart from the '.7' models (which have a new style of XO which seems to use much better parts than the older models), a stock Maggie is no more than 60% of where you can take it with a lot of DIY.
  Regards,
  Andy
  
  Edits: 09/09/12
  - much bigger improvement, one wierd trick - farfetched 17:55:19 09/08/12 (1)
    Just undo the cloth sock, and roll it down, and listen to the panels without the mufflers over them. You will be amazed. EZ tweak, ez to re-do if you really favor looks over sound, which many audiophiles do.
    
    / optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
    - RE: much bigger improvement, one wierd trick - scruffy_ 01:52:57 09/13/12 (0)
      No 'mufflers' on my Maggies. I got into a heated argument with Peter Gunn on this issue a few years back. Peter really believes that the socks do not act as 'mufflers.'
No desire to here. using a 1.5 Ohm Mills resistors in the tweeter feeda - Opus 104 16:59:04 09/07/12 (0)
and replaced the stock fuses with silver/ceramic ones. I'm done.

Opus 104
I upgraded a crossover set once, Never again... - Elizabeth 15:03:26 09/07/12 (8)
The performance increase was noted, though it made the speakers impossible to sell. (I actually made money parting them out)
So I would, due to that experience, never modify anything ever again.
And I am too damn old to be messing around much anyway.
Plus it is hard to find the 'right' caps and inductors.. Or know which capacitors are the 'right ones' in the first place..
- easy solution - Green Lantern 18:50:03 09/07/12 (5)
  if I were to do it over again with MG1.6's I wouldn't rip or tear the sock, or 'gut' the crossover well like I did last time.
  I'd first unstaple the bottom, then undo the terminal plate. I'd then simply remove the spades connected to the pushtabs leading to the drivers. All you'd have to do at this point is thread the new crossover leads into the exsiting push tabs (there's even actually a hole in each tab to thread).
  If you then decide to sell the panels in their original form you'd simply reverse this process without compromise.
  
  may the bridges I burn light the way...
  
  Edits: 09/07/12 09/08/12
  - RE: easy solution - JBen 19:35:01 09/07/12 (4)
    Precisely they way I think it should be done by those who just need to upgrade the xover or bi-amp.
    
    In my case, I knew that further mods would be done that required non-ambulatory surgery on my MMGs. However, no selling of them was ever contemplated. They were considered "disposable"...though now they are not.
    - RE: easy solution - josh358 07:12:56 09/08/12 (0)
      Yep. Mods should always be reversible if you want to sell something in the future. *You* know your mod made it better and that they were carefully done, but the potential purchaser doesn't.
      
      The flip side of that is that if you're buying something, you can get a good deal on something that's modified. Even if you don't like the mods you can probably undo them for less than you'll save on the purchase price.
    - RE: easy solution - pictureguy 00:16:27 09/08/12 (2)
      My panels are 'forever' too.....though GLs idea is terrific. And a great excuse to make hi-zoot external crossover boxes.......with plenty of room for the larger aircore inductor needed.
      Too much is never enough
      - just remember to - Green Lantern 03:38:33 09/08/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: easy solution posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 00:16:27
        
        photograph the wire color scheme before you undo the spades (use a needle nose to 'gingerly' remove each spade)on each speaker.
        
        Also; I've long since forgotten the wiring schematic of a new XO setup (the one I have in tweaks isn't as good as P.Gunn's).
        
        may the bridges I burn light the way...
        
        RE: just remember to - pictureguy 20:46:50 09/27/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: just remember to posted by Green Lantern on September 08, 2012 at 03:38:33
        
        My camera with a macro will allow me to read the printing on the wires. I have plenty of lighting, tripods, reflectors and cords for a small studio....Hey I DO have a small studio! Right down to a flash meter. My camera will also allow me to attach a short audio file to EACH exposure so I can label them for left / right speaker and thoroughly document what and how I do 'it'.
        
        Maybe I'll publish?
        Too much is never enough
- Used to have lots of people helping in past years - scruffy_ 15:16:05 09/07/12 (1)
  Now it seems nobody want to get involved.
  - RE: Now it seems nobody want to get involved. - JBen 15:46:27 09/07/12 (0)
    Ooops, sorry for the intrusion! LOL
RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - tyu 14:16:12 09/07/12 (0)
It not needed .....the new .7 have series crossover... less parts an there for most pass....
Some like a type of cap..or coil...but the OldEr Magnepanes i have found...sound great all stock....if you put in new caps an coils it dose not sound like what magnepan sold...there a lot of things that can be done too get better sound with out changing crossover parts in the speakers ..
Some just like to mod... any thing Audio....go for it..who cares what others do....goodluck
RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - ahendler 10:54:26 09/07/12 (48)
I have 1.6s and 3.6s and have not touched the crossovers
Alan
- You seem to be imparting that news with pride? nt - andyr 21:31:33 09/07/12 (9)
  .
  - RE: You seem to be imparting that news with pride? nt - JBen 23:56:34 09/07/12 (8)
    Now, Andy, don't be cruel! : - ))
    
    Or did you forget that just because a few of us think we see the "light" does not really mean that we see it. Merely, that we see "a light".
    - "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... - andyr 00:08:04 09/08/12 (7)
      I wasn't being cruel, JBen ... or at least, I wasn't trying to be. :-))
      I simply asked the question because to me, although I am well aware that not everyone contemplates "tinkering", anyone who proudly declaims they have no wish to improve anything simply displays their lack of the "optimisation gene", IMO. ;-)) Which is a fundamental human attribute - again, IMO - otherwise homo sap would still be walking around throwing stones at animals, to try to get food.
      So I was simply interested to knlow whether Alan felt good about his " I haven't modded my XOs " comment ... or whether he simply put it out there.
      Regards,
      Andy
      
      Edits: 09/08/12
      - RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... - ahendler 18:31:02 09/09/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... posted by andyr on September 08, 2012 at 00:08:04
        
        I don't think that I indicated that I felt good about not modding the xover.
        I have spent most of the time upgrading amps and cables to derive the sound I want out of my system. I have never said that anybody should not modify the xovers if they want to try that. My almost stock maggies (ceramic fuses and Cardas jumpers)give me immense pleasure especially since I got my Gilmore Raptors. If you can remember the late and missed Al Sekela abandoned
        a triamped system with electronic xovers and OTL amps and went back to the stock xover with the Raptors and felt thatcombination was the best he ever heard. There is no one way to better sound but many different ways and we shouldn't put down people who do it different than you
        Alan
      - RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... - JBen 00:43:22 09/08/12 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... posted by andyr on September 08, 2012 at 00:08:04
        
        [just sent you and email request, please check]
        
        There was a time when I, foolishly, decried mods that did not work for me.
        
        Then came the time when I realized that I had no right to make anyone feel defensive or unhappy with what they heard.
        
        We all perceive things in a different manner. Many share commonality of perception. Many don't. And then there is a range in-between.
        
        We all see a light when we are happy with what we have.
        
        Yet, in cases like yours and mine, our light may be powered by our delusions. Really, stock Maggies are just fine. We are the ones trying to make them what they are not by kicking our light further into the impossibly long tunnel.
        
        I am back to my headphones while I install some new caps on the MMGs...to further delude myself. I am determined that they will catch up with your Frankies! See, there goes that delusion of mine, again...kicking the light further in.
        
        Yours may be that the Frankies will sound like the Sydney Opera House in concert season. So, you practice your football kicks every day...because you really are going to need them for that.
        
        In the meantime, we have been beat by someone who grabbed the light and stayed put. As long as we all have our fun, what use is there in attempting to spoil it.
        
        Now, if someone says "my light is not shiny enough, how can I fix this?", then we can pitch in with our ideas for shared delusions!
        
        Choose your caps carefully or you may not hear an improvement. - scruffy_ 02:01:32 09/11/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 00:43:22
        
        The Obbligato Oil caps work nicely on the high and low pass, and they are not too expensive. Stay away from the Soniccaps and Clarity.
        http://www.diyhifisupply.com/catalog/35 (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Choose your caps carefully or you may not hear an improvement. - Don G 02:40:32 09/11/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Choose your caps carefully or you may not hear an improvement. posted by scruffy_ on September 11, 2012 at 02:01:32
        
        As someone said in an earlier post, it's all about mindset.
        
        For the fortunate amongst us, we can listen to Magnepan speakers and can appreciate the beauty that they can impart to the presentation of recorded music, others on the other hand will listen only to pick fault with technical aspects of the reproduction.
        
        In the end, to a large extent it comes down to whether you love the music or whether your bent errs towards the equipment.
        
        I know what I'd rather be doing!
        
        'scuse me but your post wins Most Obscure Post of the Millenium [no text] - Hi-fi Nut 02:04:27 09/08/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 00:43:22
        
        .
        
        Of course stock Maggies arevery much fine, JBen ... - andyr 00:47:18 09/08/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Andy, don't be cruell ! ;-))" ... posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 00:43:22
        
        It's just that I believe that no-one should believe they cannot be improved. But if a person has no urge to do so - that's fine with me. :-))
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: Of course stock Maggies arevery much fine, JBen ... - JBen 01:16:10 09/08/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Of course stock Maggies arevery much fine, JBen ... posted by andyr on September 08, 2012 at 00:47:18
        
        Thanks!
        
        Yes, I fully agree. Otherwise, what use is there in spending time with us ladies here! One has got to be after some kind of improvement or fix. Or, willing to share and help. Or, truly demented...a masochist even : - ))
        
        I think that some people have been fortunate in using the shared advice about non-modded ways to improve sound. They are happy, for now.
        
        This is a basic and significant step. So, while it is not as radical (as we can be) it still indicates the ambitious urge to improve.
        
        Like you well said earlier, there is a set of skills and urges that need to be in place before ones ventures into some mods. I've been modding electronics since...well, right after the asteroid wiped out the large critters.
        
        Yet, even now, I approach some new changes with caution...even trepidation. The happier I am with the darn things, the more I fear that I may mess them up and lose the charms by pursuing more.
        
        Thankfully, there are people like you who can guide when our urges to take a "next step" kick in. And they do kick in, at different rates, but they do.
- RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 13:33:05 09/07/12 (37)
  I have contemplated a new crossover in my 1.6 using all 'stock' values but new, and with hopefully upgraded parts.
  Something like Clarity SA would be fine for caps,
  Removing a bunch of connections and fuse would be a close 2nd while a new inductor is a problem for me.
  
  ALL the aircores available are non-optimum and can have a DCR as little as 1/2 the stock iron core.
  This will 'tip' the frequency balance towards the low frequencies. I suspect it would also have a minor effect on the crossover point.
  
  I'd have to check my spreadsheet, but using online calculators, I designed a new aircore of optimum proportions = same number of layers as turns per layer AND about 5% less DCR than the stock coil, while being made of a higher gauge wire for better power handling and complete immunity from saturation. A winding core can be fabricated using standard PVC Dimensions.
  Finding a pre-made inductor like that? Best of luck.
  If anyone is interested, write me. The wire buy is daunting and getting non-respooled wire requires about a 12lb buy, which is a HUGE amount of wire......enough for a bunch of coils.
  
  Building a winder? That is quite a project and not for the faint of heart.
  Too much is never enough
  - RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 15:45:16 09/07/12 (36)
    Pix, not that I use the speaker-level xover anymore but hoping to perhaps save you aggravation.
    Since I had lost the old sweeps, several weeks ago I ran a sequence of tests to create some charts to share with someone with stock MMGs. What I did was to locate the original parts that came with my MMGs (original model). There were enough for one channel only. I also found other parts, including the inductors that I upgraded to in the early tweak days.
    Both the original design MMGs and the newer MMGs use the same 2.2mH inductor.
    I thought I remebered -- from the early tweak days -- that the difference in DCR did not make a meaningful difference in the response curves in this particular case. Since I no longer trust this braincell of mine, I made sweeps with both inductors this time again. The original is about .35 ohm DCR. The one I got later is .15 ohm or so.
    There was hardly a measured acoustical difference in curves. Bottom output does tick up slightly with the newer ones. Yet, nothing that would anticipate the obvious improvemnt in actual use.
    Now, from the past I already knew that the replacements do sound different, as in clearly better. They are not even a foil but just as good as the foils I tested in that role, early on. Which is why I can bring these inductors out and use them when not in line-level bi-amp; if something breaks the PLLXO config or I am testing. They are only less good than the PLLXO setup, which truly bests it (mostly in terms of clarity).
    The point is that you may be able to get some inductors cheaply to try before going to foils. The ones I used are Erse Super Q solid core 16ga bacause the 14ga version was out of stock them.
    OTOH, get this. Out of curiosity, I measured the capacitance of the 4 12uF Solen caps that came with my speakers (2 each). Some 13 years after they were built, they measure exactly 12uF! (Not that they sound good anymore, though) So, at least in those days, Magnepan insisted on precision values. I don't have a way to measure inductance, however.
    
    Edits: 09/07/12
    - RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 20:14:52 09/07/12 (35)
      Since I don't do it often, I don't remember how to do the calculation:
      I had originally posted my inductor thoughts in the form of a question and got an answer much like yours....but their was a minority thought that it would be a couple db.
      The bass panel on a 1.6 is what.... about 4.1 ohms and the inductor is 0.4 ohms?
      
      Anyway, I'm not going to try to figure out the math again, but the difference in output wouldn't be all THAT much......but I didn't want to mess with it by using an aftermarket inductor of 25% to 50% less resistance. Also, the overkill crowd uses 12ga wire for 'power handling'.....comeon, really? Do you think you're gonna get even a 14ga warm? Let alone cook it?
      
      Also, I'm thinking about using regular magnet wire....the inductor is about 4" OD and the coil is square in cross section....about 1" x 1" I can't remember the intended 'core' size, but do remember it was a standard PVC size......All the info is in my spreadsheet, which I'll send out on request.
      Also, I'm nuts and want the 'perfect' inductor, in which the coil is square in cross section. I see many coils built on common cores, for example, which means few are even close to optimum dimensions.
      
      The Solons are considered one of the better budget caps.....No question about it. That you can better them is pretty much a given. Even the modest Clarity SA I've considered is a step up. Now, if the OTHER measures of the caps don't get me, I'll be OK. I have no idea of the ESR or the inductance of any of the caps in question.
      Too much is never enough
      - RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 21:36:31 09/07/12 (34)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 07, 2012 at 20:14:52
        
        Remember that the DCR at the inductors is only a fraction of the total impedance that the power amps "see". The difference from one inductor to another only looks big in %. It should still be kept in mind but, with Maggies, there's a lot more that will vary elsewhere.
        
        Which finds me doing double-speak in a way. Then I go and insist on buying matched parts for the PLLXO under a mental excuse that it is to keep the balance properly. The reality is that the room constraints can throw a larger spin on things.
        
        Luckily, at times and depending on speaker positions, I do get a kick of seeing virtually overlapping sweeps of each tweeter, despite they being so far apart and not "seeing" the exact same thing. It is not "the objective" but it is nice to see that I contributed to some of that...and it all sounds good.
        
        So, spool away and have fun with it in the process. There is more to inductor attributes than DCR. Your attention to detail may well make the difference for the better.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 00:09:04 09/08/12 (33)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by JBen on September 07, 2012 at 21:36:31
        
        Yes.....I didn't want to get into the math....'cause I simply don't remember it well....
        But.
        Inductor is 0.4+4.1 of panel vs 0.2(aftermarket inductor)+4.1 of panel.........somehow you use logs / subtract and it pops out with a number which is a difference.
        
        I can understand 'matched pairs'.......No need to throw in variables without need. I'll bet the bare driveres themselves vary +-0.1ohms....or perhaps more? I didn't see a tolerance on the schematic.
        
        Maybe Magnepan could charge +100$ 'Matched Panel' fee and sell matched pairs? hmmmmm.
        
        Anyway, I think magnepan went to some trouble in design / execution of the crossover so I'm sticking with their values until I know better. That would require far more experimentation than I'm going to do. Also, changing the whole crossover, even matching 'stock' values is quite a crap-shoot in and of itself.
        The smart thing of greatest difficulty? Change one thing at a time.
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - tyu 04:34:14 09/08/12 (27)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 00:09:04
        
        Ok...
        
        Anyway, I think magnepan went to some trouble in design / execution of the crossover so I'm sticking with their values until I know better. That would require far more experimentation than I'm going to do. Also, changing the whole crossover, even matching 'stock' values is quite a crap-shoot in and of itself.
        The smart thing of greatest difficulty? Change one thing at a time
        
        Here a new mod....Get A New pr of Speakers......
        Most talk like well this is the only speaker {Thay} well ever have so Thay well set out to make a diff speakers out of what Thay have.....BS
        If you think the Magnepans are only 60% out of the box...get real..
        You set you self up to get better sound by doing any thing...You say it better...why you say so..or it test better...BS
        
        I have alway thought that out of the Box Magnepans were at 80% of any panels ESL Full ribbons..what ever... with or with out mods..
        An i have got a lot of FU feed back....
        
        Now some think there at 60% with out your mods.....All most are doing is changing things an saying there better.......An then spend 1000 hr here saying how good thay sound....get a new pr of speakers...No you cant do that you have the best.....right...how do you know??...Oh you went some were an got to hear a pr of what ever an you know what you have are good are better,....BS..
        I had an got out of the 1.7 over a year ago....man you guys are still trying to talk you self in to how great your old speakers are....Look I like the Older Maggys...but i went there so i would know...you can talk your self into an out of any thing...rely means nothing...look if as some say a fuse can make your speaker sound diff....WTF..This Crap never ends...youll just stop an say ..Wow these are the best...you need to do XYZ....to get better sound....goodluck
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 11:30:27 09/08/12 (23)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 08, 2012 at 04:34:14
        
        Tyu, Don't have a hemorage. It's only a flippin' speaker.
        80%? 60%? How about 70%? It's just a number which have only opinions to back them.
        
        Magnepans are thought of as a hi-value item. But, in delivering such high value, some compromises were made. People LIKE to mess with stuff. Some people have latched on to the Magnepan and are busily moddin'g away.
        
        And who's to say better or worse? You from wherever? Me? How about the guy that built 'em? That is the only opinion that matters. That modd'd equipment has compromised resale doesn't bother most of the modders. They are in it for the long haul. 'I will be buried in the box they came in' has been heard more than once.
        
        What drives this? Maybe as many reasons as people. Curiousity? sure Looking for the ultimate sound? probably Bored? why not too much money? doubtful but possible.
        
        You should probably read my post. I'm very conservative in modding. No rubberized stuff, no Ouija Board on top of the equipment rack. No crystals or voodoo dolls or even psychic phone calls. Nope. Start with sound principles and work slowly. Everything works for a reason.
        
        Reality is what's left when you stop believing in ???
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." - JBen 15:07:41 09/08/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 11:30:27
        
        I saw this hours ago and I am still laughing at "flippin'". It was no pun intended, right?
        
        I like that in the posting you also imply something that I believe we all know, though sometimes forget. The relativity of this whole thing.
        
        The one objection I have is to your not using the Ouija Board tweak. While the Voodoo Dolls mod is not working for me yet, the Q Board adds an ethereal charm.
        
        It also brings out voices and sounds from the background that one misses without the boards.
        
        I use one board for each speaker. Maybe you can try it this way. I am now trying to get the Ouija Board hand pieces to act as VU meter needles. For now, they stay put on the vertical boards just fine. Yet, they seem to dance to a different tune...
        
        RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." - pictureguy 16:41:01 09/08/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 15:07:41
        
        If I tell you, the magic would go away.
        BTW, I spent 10 yrs in the punitentiary '
        It is a family behavior issue.
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." - JBen 16:54:38 09/08/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 16:41:01
        
        Some very decent people get the best perspectives on life that often escape others, in this manner.
        
        RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." - pictureguy 20:14:25 09/21/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "It's only a flippin' speaker." posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 16:54:38
        
        I wanted to add that getting a person post from Geoff makes my system sound substantially better for a couple weeks, until the juju wears off.
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - tyu 14:34:52 09/08/12 (18)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 11:30:27
        
        The post was Not about you ...but it looks like it was...
        You are vary openminded...an right on with how you think...
        I have done a lot of mods....like i have said befor i had too learn to Diy amps an anying Audio...but it look like the same people here just go round an round...it like there talking to thems selfs..
        
        Search in these sites has 100k post on mods....but it like there nothing New ever added...
        An then MR Magnepan come in with his Bs....... goes to Magnepan for a tour..come back blowing hard about puting down on paper what he saw ....but never happens ....but can post crap every day..
        dont read my post!...i dont care what you think!..an i dont like you!
        funny i been looking at this site for years an can only say this about you!...did you get that....goodluck
        
        Here the best one....
        My room 12'X13"..an i am going to put a 100" tv in an need someone to tell me if the mg1.7 are the 20.7 are the way to go...you know with my 7.1 setup i well be adding to the room..an it well have room for 5 people....An no one here thinks this is a joke even if the guy who post never come back to the post he started....hell who here cares...thay go an run with it....
        So now less get 60-100 post..about this,...... if this crap is going to go on....i well just keep adding tooooo.... then some here can run me down... looks like that more real..an can be funny....goodluck
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 17:36:01 09/08/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 08, 2012 at 14:34:52
        
        "An then MR Magnepan come in with his Bs....... goes to Magnepan for a tour..come back blowing hard about puting down on paper what he saw ....but never happens ....but can post crap every day..
        dont read my post!...i dont care what you think!..an i dont like you!
        funny i been looking at this site for years an can only say this about you!"
        
        Well, then, TYU, perhaps you shouldn't read *my* posts. :-)
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 16:19:13 09/08/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 08, 2012 at 14:34:52
        
        Tyu, Tyu...hold back the rage a little more.
        
        Ok, I agree with you on something. We have got to punish Josh for not reporting on the trip.
        
        Let's not hate him for it. I propose we all come up with some amusing ways to punish him, and then vote on one way to accomplish this.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - tyu 07:45:25 09/09/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 16:19:13
        
        Ok, I agree with you on something. We have got to punish Josh for not reporting on the trip. ....
        No you got punish him...i see him as a sutin...i need nothing from him... are anyone like him..goodluck ....
        
        I bet magnepan ask him not to say more than he has...i could care less...i was just ponting out his BS..
        
        Let's not hate him for it. ....LOL
        I have never found what he has to say to be any better are diff than anyone here.....you know we all get to say what he think...
        He just trolls from site to site tell all that he Was a Industry Professional ...it funny to me...i well say you dont see any other posters with Industry Professional with there name...... on any other site i been on...but hay it work for him so i say ...LOL...goodluck
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 09:24:24 09/11/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 09, 2012 at 07:45:25
        
        "I bet magnepan ask him not to say more than he has"
        
        Your speculation is incorrect.
        
        "He just trolls from site to site tell all that he Was a Industry Professional ...it funny to me...i well say you dont see any other posters with Industry Professional with there name...... on any other site i been on."
        
        "Industry professional" is the Asylum's category, not mine, and as I have previously informed you, I use it because I am required by the Asylum. It is a lie to say that I use it, or any similar designation, on other sites. There is a similar category, "industry participant," on the Audio Circle, but as far as I know it isn't mandatory, so I haven't used it.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - dumpingground 18:22:37 09/09/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 09, 2012 at 07:45:25
        
        does this board have an ignore user feature?
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 16:14:41 09/08/12 (12)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 08, 2012 at 14:34:52
        
        I think you'll see I was the 'naysayer'......the guy with the 11.5x13 foot room and wanting to install a 5 or 7.1 system?
        Josh is more video oriented and his points were valid......Their ARE standards for viewing distance vs screen size...based on the apparent size of the screen and the viewing angle.
        
        And while some were 'go for it!' I wanted to put on the brakes. I'd LOVE to hear how that came out.
        
        BTW, Josh is a great guy. You should think about that. HE at least nutted up and went to Minnesotta for the tour.....who ELSE here can say that?
        Lots of people talk trash about magnepan quality or 'built to a price' or whatever. NONE of these people own or run a company which has lasted what.....40 years?
        Even PG has taken some shots....but HE at least came up with what he thought were a good set of mods and has the guts to sell 'em.....and has takers. HE gets my vote, too.
        I've seen / heard many theories about Magnepan...but few can pass the 'make a prediction' test and than verify it. Everyone else? Let's just say they have a high bar to hurdle before I sign on...
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - tyu 04:25:03 09/09/12 (11)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 16:14:41
        
        I think you'll see I was the 'naysayer'.....yes i did...but
        
        Let me be clear....we all have had to much audio for a room..
        But when i came here after geting the new 1.7 an runing them in for 6weeks.. an said the sound sucked...an still had 4 other pr of maggys i could put in at any time...i was a nut job!
        It was after haveing them in a room setup for sound...18'X25'X14' in a all open space 18'X 40'..... the the 25' wall can be mover...no tvs..no racks..one chire...two ears....is this the best room on earth...No..B ut i would have never came here an said one thing bad about the 1.7s ..an would still have them hopeing one day i would have a room that would let me hear them....good are bad..
        but here people that say thay know good audio sound... take a room 13X15.. an put a pr of Tympani IVs or 3.7 an say thay have the best sound ever....it there dream...an that cool... but say you dont know...you at lest had too read some where that the room makes a big diff...but for most thay dont care...there right....goodluck
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 07:03:10 09/09/12 (10)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 09, 2012 at 04:25:03
        
        I don't recall anybody calling you a nutjob for disliking the 1.7's. Nor do I remember anyone with a 13 x 15 room saying they had the same sound ever.
        
        Where the hell do you come up with this stuff?
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 11:47:55 09/21/12 (9)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by josh358 on September 09, 2012 at 07:03:10
        
        Pornography is like good/bad sound quality......I'll know it when I see (hear) it.
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 13:49:06 09/21/12 (8)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 21, 2012 at 11:47:55
        
        Pornography? Where?
        
        I must study it so I can make a report on moral degradation for my church group.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - cbertra2 14:23:02 09/21/12 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by josh358 on September 21, 2012 at 13:49:06
        
        My 1.6's sound great as they are from Magnepan.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 20:21:45 09/21/12 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by cbertra2 on September 21, 2012 at 14:23:02
        
        The DO, don't they? Yet, many people with the 'urge' simply can't leave well enough alone.
        
        Modding is perhaps, a form of obsessive / compulsive behavior. Harmless to society, so noboby has yet been rubber-roomed for engaging in it.
        
        I'll join soon, I'm sure.
        
        Too much is never enough
        
        "Yet, many people with the 'urge' simply can't leave well enough alone." ... - andyr 22:38:37 09/21/12 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 21, 2012 at 20:21:45
        
        Those who do "leave well alone" simply don't have the optimising gene. I would say most people don't. :-))
        
        I equate such people to those who are not perturbed by a tap dripping. (Read " Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance " if you have no idea what I'm talking about. :-))
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: "Yet, many people with the 'urge' simply can't leave well enough alone." ... - JBen 23:11:27 09/21/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Yet, many people with the 'urge' simply can't leave well enough alone." ... posted by andyr on September 21, 2012 at 22:38:37
        
        Ergo, most people are not perturbed by a tap dripping? LOL
        
        Anyway, I am safe...though I can't stop laughing here as you seem to be hell bent on making a tweaker out of evey soul around these parts.
        
        Burn the heretics!
        
        BTW, what has been changed on the Frankies lately? With the new room they are now in you must be having some fresh tweaking fun. : - ))
        
        Nono - absolutely not, JBen. ... - andyr 01:08:35 09/22/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: "Yet, many people with the 'urge' simply can't leave well enough alone." ... posted by JBen on September 21, 2012 at 23:11:27
        
        I have absolutely no problem with people who are quite happy to listen as is and have no desire to "improve" their Maggies. As I said, IMO they simply lack the "optimisation" gene - of which I was born with a generous supply! :-))
        
        (Coincident with me getting into hifi - but before I started tweaking - I spent 4 years getting postgraduate degrees in Operations Research ... which is the mathematics of optimising. Since I veered sideways in my working life, out of OR into more "mainstream" computing, I seem to have fulfilled my "Optimisation Disorder" by tweaking my hifi system!:-)) )
        
        What's new with the Frankenpans ... well, yes, the new room is:
        a) a very different layout, and
        b) less than half the size of my last listening room.
        
        So I have them arranged against the long wall ... and sit much closer than I used to (about 9' away from the panels instead of 14'). But the sound is better than I feared it was going to be - and good enough to put up with for 12-18 months till we get our new house built. :-))
        
        Because of the smaller distance away and because they are on the long wall (so there is still about 3' between the ribbons and the side walls), I now have ribbons out.
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        Optimisation Gene - Norman M 08:36:37 09/22/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Nono - absolutely not, JBen. ... posted by andyr on September 22, 2012 at 01:08:35
        
        A mutant form of the sex-linked FOFIU gene. (Fear of F*****g It Up.)
        
        Haha - very good! :-)) nt - andyr 14:42:14 09/22/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Optimisation Gene posted by Norman M on September 22, 2012 at 08:36:37
        
        .
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 21:12:26 09/21/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 21, 2012 at 20:21:45
        
        "rubber-roomed"? Ahhh, I was wondering what this stuff on the walls surrounding me was! LOL
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 07:07:11 09/08/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by tyu on September 08, 2012 at 04:34:14
        
        "I have alway thought that out of the Box Magnepans were at 80% of any panels ESL Full ribbons..what ever... with or with out mods..
        An i have got a lot of FU feed back...."
        
        That has little to do with your opinion, except for a couple of claims I thought were outrageously wrong (about Tympanis and the Mini Maggies). More to do with your personal attacks on other people -- claims that nobody here has heard a speaker other than MMG's, etc.
        
        About the relative merits of speakers, I think we can have our opinions. And I don't think anyone here has ever suggested that Maggies are the be-all and end-all of speakers, or the best speaker for every listener. Stats are cleaner, large dynamics can play louder and go deeper. Every speaker type has its advantages, and there's no one-size-fits-all solution, even when you take price into account.
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 11:33:12 09/08/12 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by josh358 on September 08, 2012 at 07:07:11
        
        But Josh, people love to PLAY and Maggies for some people turn into a hobby.......mod on!
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - josh358 17:43:40 09/08/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 11:33:12
        
        There's that, too. :-)
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 02:50:00 09/08/12 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 00:09:04
        
        Pix, now that you mention it, the driver impedance on mine are very closely matched also. Both tweeters are 2.6 ohms (2.6 & 2.61) and the bass 4.1 & 4.14 ohms.*
        It is the tuning dots that mismatch each panel somewhat, by design.
        I share your view that Magnepan went to good lengths on the xover side of things. Sure, these can be improved to suit our personal needs. Yet, Magnepan has to keep in mind 1.) a mass-market range of tastes, and 2.) making them affordable.
        My MMGs came with a xover that uses 1st order slopes for the tweeter and 2nd order for the mid/bass driver. To this day my best PLLXO slopes have to be of the same type. (I do use different frequency points.)
        However, I can easily switch to 1st order values for both drivers, like the newer MMGs have. This has the advantage of a lower signal attenuation. Yet, I keep coming back to the original 1st/2nd config.
        OTOH, it may be that newer MMGs behave the opposite way. In other words, that they "prefer" 1st/1st vs 1st/2nd. Along time, I have come to suspect that when Magnepan altered the drivers they altered the xover accordingly, or vice versa. [I will not know this for sure because I failed to find current MMGs that I could bring home for testing -- when I had the time for it.]
        If this much care was taken with these basic Maggies, I would expect that they took even more care with the 1.6 xover optimization, for a wide market appeal. I think that it is wise of you to respect this for a great starting point as you chart your own goals.
        We do have a range of different opinions on the subject around here at times. This is good also. It paid off for me to listen to all. Yet, in the end, it is our own decision, as our respective ears tell us.
        
        -------------------------------
        *for anyone with MMGs watching, mine are the original model. The current model which replaced it after, perhaps, the year 2000 has a higher tweeter impedance and probably about the same as mine on the bass. Both the tweeter and the bass traces are laid out different.
        
        Edits: 09/08/12
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 16:45:18 09/08/12 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 02:50:00
        
        The 1st / 2nd order deal is what makes me think that with a 90` phase difference between the 2 panels, one should go to the inside since it is 90` behind the other driver. The physicsl distance difference would tend to 'time align' the 2 drivers.......
        Too much is never enough
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - JBen 17:47:44 09/08/12 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by pictureguy on September 08, 2012 at 16:45:18
        
        That same thought keeps coming back to mind every so often but I never remember it at the times I can measure for it. Then, I am lazy. The modded MMGs weight more now. Swapping sides to go from tweeter-in to tweeter-out is no fun anymore : - ))
        I am hoping to find time to pursue Group Delay measurement more deliberately. They may clear up why I perceive things better than "theory" says I should with 1st/2nd. In fact, now that you brought it up, I should remember to include testing for the difference with tweeter in & out. Also, Josh should soon be able to measure. He has a new setup in the works. It may help us all if we can confirm in various acoustic environments.
        I'd be interested in finding out how the 1.6s are wired. As I recall, they are also 1st/2nd. The problem is that it may be confusing for someone to determine it if they don't look carefully. {edit: The specific thing I want to figure out is if they wired the drivers as "same polarity" or inverted. I erased the section that explained the context of this but I'll bring it up later)
        
        Edits: 09/08/12
        
        Yes, JBen ... - andyr 02:30:20 09/09/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 17:47:44
        
        The tweeter is wired in reverse, AIUI (from simulating the XO in lspCAD).
        
        And it's 2nd order bass LP, 1st order tweeter HP.
        
        Regards,
        
        Andy
        
        RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s - pictureguy 23:16:00 09/08/12 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How many people are NOT upgrading their crossover in the Maggie 1.6s posted by JBen on September 08, 2012 at 17:47:44
        
        Yes, the 1.6s are indeed 1st / 2nd.
        Just caps on the tweeter while the bass has an inductor as well...
        I further believe the 2 sections of the panel are wired out of phase...
        Too much is never enough

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