Planar Speaker Asylum

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Planar Speaker Asylum

RE: Wow

70.44.136.102

In Reply to: RE: Wow posted by magiccarpetride on January 19, 2011 at 14:14:30

I have heard from a reputable source that every patent has expired.

And nobody is picking up any torches... so if they did fold I think we'd be pretty much #@&*ed.

However as I said, their business model is their concern. I wasn't making commentary on that, I just did not like what I perceived as a "look down" on what we have done here. I frankly think the contributions of a great many inmates here have been quite extraordiniary, and for him to so casually dismiss it, IMHO, was very rude.

It's all about the music...

Follow Ups:

RE: Wow - magiccarpetride 10:15:28 01/20/11 (12)
"I have heard from a reputable source that every patent has expired."

Anyone knows what these patents are? They must be available for review online, no?

So once the patent expires, the original publisher has no right to renew it?

"And nobody is picking up any torches... so if they did fold I think we'd be pretty much #@&*ed."

That's terrible to hear. I was hoping that there would be a way to ensure that this brilliant technology continues to live regardless of how well/lousy the original manufacturers are doing.

"However as I said, their business model is their concern. I wasn't making commentary on that, I just did not like what I perceived as a "look down" on what we have done here. I frankly think the contributions of a great many inmates here have been quite extraordiniary, and for him to so casually dismiss it, IMHO, was very rude."

Peter, really, who cares? You expecting a pat on the back from the original manufacturer? Grow up!
- RE: Wow - josh358 16:53:50 01/20/11 (11)
  > That's terrible to hear. I was hoping that there would be a way to ensure that this brilliant technology continues to live regardless of how well/lousy the original manufacturers are doing.
  
  It will, it's already used by several other manufacturers. Eminent Technology makes push-pull speakers that are similar to Maggies. Two or three companies make Apogee clones. BG and Wisdom make planars iwth enclosures and highly-regarded planar magnetic drivers:
  
  http://wisdomaudio.com/index.php
  
  Some of those BG planar drivers are used in offerings from other companies as well.
  
  But none of these companies occupy quite the same niche as Magnepan. HP, in describing the 20.1 in his 2011 Editor's Choice list, wrote, "It is one of the rare high-end components that comes close to suggesting the sound of music itself." I fear that if Magnepan disappears or as not infrequently happens with these companies gets sold, that unusual combination of naturalism (which IMO many high end speakers lack) and economy will go as well.
  - Magnepan future - magiccarpetride 11:06:22 01/21/11 (10)
    "But none of these companies occupy quite the same niche as Magnepan. HP, in describing the 20.1 in his 2011 Editor's Choice list, wrote, "It is one of the rare high-end components that comes close to suggesting the sound of music itself." I fear that if Magnepan disappears or as not infrequently happens with these companies gets sold, that unusual combination of naturalism (which IMO many high end speakers lack) and economy will go as well."
    
    That is exactly what I'm afraid of. My plan is to claw my way all the way up to 20.1, and it'll take time. I don't want to find out later on that all my plans have been vaporized because Magnepan has been sold to some Chinese company who decides to cut corners and to turn their flagship 20.1 into the pale shadow of its former self.
    
    I must admit, I'm in favor of crowdsourced technology. Look at people like Peter Gunn or Dawnrazor or Grant or all these other resident geniuses/crackpots (I mean no offence to anyone:). Little by little, we have witnessed a crowding phenomenon where all these know-hows have learnt a lot about the magic of the Magnepan technology. If push comes to shove, can't we reclaim it, and fork our way out of the mainstream business model and crowdsource an even better engineered pair of speakers? Isn't this the dawning of the Age of Amateurs?
    - RE: Magnepan future - IEaudiodude 11:47:30 01/21/11 (0)
      PG , DR or Grant "geniuses/crackpots" I think gave the most accurate description of this place I have seen yet ! LMAO
    - RE: Magnepan future - josh358 11:45:02 01/21/11 (8)
      As far as I can tell, the record on that is decidedly mixed. There are a couple of outfits that make what are in effect modern Apogees, Graz's Apogee Acoustics and the Greek outfit, forget their name. But as far as I know they haven't been able to (or maybe wanted to) make the leap from an expensive, small quantity product to a mainstream one. And other companies with creditable technology have just disappeared like Acoustat or been transformed to the point at which they're no longer recognizable.
      
      It isn't just a matter of know-how, though that's a big part of it -- even if we were experts on planar technology, it takes a lot of experience to produce optimized designs and start production. A company is a difficult thing to bootstrap. You need somehow to finance your R&D effort, and then you have to build a reputation. Stereophile won't even review a product with fewer than five dealers. It can be done, some friends and I did it with a pro audio product, but it requires quite an investment in time and energy. And even then, if the people with experience couldn't make a go of it, why would you be able to? What's the difference in your business plan? You need to bring something new to the mix.
      - RE: Magnepan future - magiccarpetride 11:58:53 01/21/11 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 11:45:02
        
        "What's the difference in your business plan? You need to bring something new to the mix."
        
        Like I said, there is no business plan. What I'm talking about is more like an open source community. No business plan, just a sprawling community garden where everyone brings their individual talents to get cross-polinated in a public place.
        
        Anyone who's familiar with the open source communities (such as wikipedia, for example), knows that this model works. The community garden not only works, but has a potential to deliver superior products (as it stands today, wikipedia may be considered the 'go to' encyclopedia, something to even better Encyclopedia Britannica).
        
        The 'something new to the mix' is the Age of the Amateur (by definition, an amateur is a person who does something out of love; contrast that with a professional, who is defined as a person who does something even if he/she don't feel like doing it). Pros have agendas that we amateurs don't care too much about. Hence, we boast more freedom.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 16:12:05 01/21/11 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by magiccarpetride on January 21, 2011 at 11:58:53
        
        Well, it's an interesting concept, but I'm not sure how it could work in the case of manufacturing! Wikipedia, after all, is a matter of bits, and as such accessible to everyone with an Internet connection.
        
        Also, in all honesty, I think that if you took the sum total of our knowledge of planar speaker design and compared it to Magnepan's it would be sorely lacking. I could be wrong, after all, Jim Smith touches down here on occasion and there may be lurking planar pros. Also, we do have some of the component knowledge -- PG's woodworking skills, Grant's metalworking skills, Davey's crossover expertise, etc. But while I've been impressed in general by the expertise of today's Internet-connected audio hobbyists and have learned much myself from hobbyists on this group and on other forums, I haven't seen real professional expertise in planar design here, even among those of us who are engineers with other specialties.
        
        Seriously, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. When I'm on this group, I'm an amateur too. But I know what it is to be a pro in this field, and it involves a degree of immersion that we just don't have. You can acquire it, I have every time I've immersed myself in a new technical area, but it's not really a weekend type of thing.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - JLindborg 16:44:03 01/21/11 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 16:12:05
        
        Some of the knowledge here on this forum is not put out for a really good reason.
        This forum is not PURELY Magnepan forum and thus all of the tips and tricks are NOT reveled to them as they really should come up with it themselves.
        So when someones is claiming that no one on this forum has the knowledge, then that person does not know what he is talking about at all.
        The sentence should be altered to "some of us on this forum does not have the knowledge...".
        
        I am one of those who prefer Apogee speakers before Magnepan and there is several good reasons for that.
        The person behind Apogee acoustics today is also a person You can get in touch with and is frequently on the Apogee forum.
        He will and can answer questions and don't have to take a lot of flaming because of bad manufacturing or service.
        
        Surely Apogee's are not made for mid-HiFi enthusiasts either... so.
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 17:24:00 01/21/11 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by JLindborg on January 21, 2011 at 16:44:03
        
        I'm not sure what you're saying here. If you mean that there could be someone lurking here with all the planar knowledge in the world, sure, I agree, which is why I said is much. For all I know, Jim Winey himself is spending his retirement reading every single post. But I haven't seen any evidence of that. The only planar expert I've seen come around here is Jim Smith, and in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have no reason to assume that the expertise exists.
        
        As to Graz, he has his own company, and his own forum. I don't dispute his expertise, in fact, I mentioned his company only four posts back. But he's gone pro, and even then, he isn't manufacturing speakers on a large scale, as opposed to running a boutique operation.
        
        I won't say there's nothing new under the sun, but I have yet to see one innovation here that isn't, as the patent law says, obvious to someone versed in the state of the art. That's no insult to my fellow tweakers. One thing you learn as an engineer is that most of the solutions you come up with have already been thought of by someone else. So if someone does have a magic weapon unknown to Magnepan, I wish them all the luck in the world, but I'd have to see evidence of it. And even if they did, that wouldn't be the same as the knowledge needed to mass produce a practical planar that matches Magnepan's price/performance ratio.
        
        RE: Magnepan future - JLindborg 17:36:11 01/21/11 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 17:24:00
        
        In some way Magnepan is somewhat cornered in their own design and business policy.
        So they can't really do any major changes in their process to do things that are .... let's say better.
        It's already been explained from the message, and that the larger masses would not appreciate the upgrade in the same extent as the risen cost of changing the manufacturing process.
        And yes, they have a pair of Apogee's at hand to compare to. ;)
        The question is... have they yet dismantled it??
        
        The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
        
        Edits: 01/21/11 01/21/11 01/21/11
        
        RE: Magnepan future - josh358 18:00:06 01/21/11 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by JLindborg on January 21, 2011 at 17:36:11
        
        The thing is, the original Apogee went out of business, Magnepan didn't. And at least one former Apogee employee blamed it on the excessive manufacturing cost of the Grand. The Apogees tended to be less practical speakers than Maggies -- heavier, costlier to manufacture, in some cases difficult to drive. They were also less consistent in their tuning, sometimes inconsistent even within a production run. So while they certainly had advantages and many say they were better speakers, I don't think Magnepan is eager to imitate all their features.
        
        It seems to me that Magnepan is more threatened by the sort of stuff that the BG/Wisdom crowd are doing. There hasn't been direct competition between Magnepan and those companies, since their focus is on in-wall speakers and hybrids. But what happens if some company starts manufacturing beautiful push-pull neo magnet dipoles made in China? Magnepan could duplicate the tech, sure, it isn't exactly a state secret, but how could they match the low cost of Chinese labor?
        
        Also, I don't see any Jim Winey-level innovations coming down the pike, just refinements of what's there. I'd love to see them make full use of newer technology, but it doesn't seem to be in the cards. No dipole manufacturer is. Graz, the Greek guys, Eminent, Magnepan, Quad, Martin-Logan, etc. -- they all seem stuck in the past.
        
        The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio, BTW. (nt) - esande 23:42:00 01/21/11 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Magnepan future posted by josh358 on January 21, 2011 at 18:00:06
        
        RE: The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio - josh358 05:57:59 01/23/11 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: The "Greek guys" are Analysis Audio, BTW. (nt) posted by esande on January 21, 2011 at 23:42:00
        
        Thanks, I was too senile to remember the name and too lazy to look it up.
        
        Getting old really is a bore. If they hadn't invented search engines, I'd probably be drooling in an asylum somewhere.

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