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In Reply to: What's REALLY going on here? posted by tkheem on April 29, 2004 at 11:07:07:
and with all due respect to my fellow inmates here, there was no need
for all of this. The market is open and people are free to buy what they want. Nothing is really hidden and no one is trying to bend anybody's arm to buy anything..Live and let live..AP
Follow Ups:
"Nothing is really hidden "except a eupen cable underneath some nylon.
The point here isn't about the price of a cable. What nobody here has said is this: pricing is not about supply, it's about supply and demand...Marshall cleared this up long long ago. If it sounds $350 good to you given your budget constraint, then buy it. If it sounds $1000 good to you, and you bought it for $350, then you profited.
The point here is borders on false advertising. If you read their website a couple days ago, it said, "try any of our hand made cables...". Now to be fair, they didn't say ALL their cables are handmade. So in retrospect, you could just not try the ones that are not handmade, or try them anyway even though they didn't ask you to, but which were those? Well now we know. ( In the JPS response they indicated two) but even they must have thought that a reasonable person would (wrongly) infer that all their cables are handmade, because it is not on their website anymore! And no I can't go back in time to prove it. Unless I open a Eupen cord and find a JPS cord "hiding" underneath and as rp1 points out, the space-time continuum rips to shreds.
--Jack
that now we all have to dissect all the cables before we buy them and see if we are being mislead, taken advantage of or ripped off:-)As valid as Steve's original post is, I still can't condemn JPS before actually sonically comparing an identical sample of each.
If JPS had nothing to do with these cables except repackaging and reselling them, then both samples 'should ' be sonically identical.
AP
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that since the beginning of this controversy the "anger" has been about possible false advertising. Lots of people jumped on the cost issue, but that is not what started all this. That's all I meant.Let's get some Eupen cords and meet up. rp1, can we have a power cord death match at your place if we all go in on some eupen cables?
:)
Cheers,
--Jack
Let's have a death cable showdown at the Pyramids here :-)AP
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
"Nothing is really hidden..."Oh really? Then please show me where the information Steve posted has heretofore been readily available to consumers. Or by "nothing...hidden", do you mean that I'm free to pay $350 for a cable, and then void my warranty or return privilege by cutting it open to learn the truth?
"The market is open and people are free to buy what they want."
Gee, I somehow always assumed that free dissemination of information was an integral part of an "open" market.
Also, can you please point to where Steve even hinted that he believed people should not be "free to buy what they want..."
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
Please see my answer to Hafdef..I am not defending JPS or anybody else. All I am saying is that Kevin is right in what he said and that
as long as the 'final' JPS product 'sounds' different to a similar run of a EUPEN cable, then JPS is doing nothing wrong, in my book.AP
"All I am saying is that Kevin is right in what he said and that
as long as the 'final' JPS product 'sounds' different to a similar run of a EUPEN cable, then JPS is doing nothing wrong, in my book."Of course, we don't have a clue as to whether it actually sounds different because it would seem that there are no reported tests run under proper control conditions to establish that. But that's another story.
The focus here it seems to me is not whether JPS is doing anything wrong. Most of the "energy" of the posters has been focused on accusing Steve of doing something wrong simply because he posted some facts. He's even been accused of "milking" this for all its worth.
And Rod gets "sick" at people like Steve and jneutron who simply stick with the facts! PATHETIC.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
With apologies to Monty Python:http://www.blakeneymanor.com/moore.html
I think that would have been the best route to take before firing all those WMD's..:-)AP
Herr Heinrich's description, and his assertion that they do no OEM work for JPS, and that the numbers on the plug-ends match their data-base, well then I am going to assume they are the exact same cord.I will say that the Analog and the Digital cords sound the same; no one could tell which one was where in the circuit.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
I'd hate to have to work with three distinctly different products that had identical outward appearances. What if some careless employee dumped a batch of one into the bin for another?se
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
"The market is open and people are free to buy what they want"Not true, but the issue has absolutely nothing to do with someones right to purchase a product.
"Nothing is really hidden and no one is trying to bend anybody's arm to buy anything"
Not true, I'm not sure about New Zealand but in North America there a laws which protect buyers from sellers who materially mislead, misrepresent or deceive in advertising. Whether through omission of material facts or misrepresenation of same the intent is to HIDE the truth of material fact the end result being a bending arms sort of speak to gain a sale.
As I see it, you hear a 'JPS' Cable, you maybe compare it to another brand, you like the JPS in your set-up and you end up buying it.The same goes for any other brand of cables. I don't think JPS misleads anybody here. What they use as raw materials is up to them even if they source it very cheap from some one. What I do believe
is that JPS still do some design work of their own in the cable and have the right to price it at the end accordingly as how they see fit. Most cable manufacturers do this, they source out the raw materials, do some of their own designing and tweaking, repackage the whole thing and offer it for sale. This is fair practice in my opinion.But, if they just source the raw wire, repackage and then just resell without having done any of their own geometry, shielding etc..etc.., this would be a fraudulent act for sure and they should be held liable for whatever the law would indict.
That's what I meant in my post. Another question remains here, are cable manufacturers so naive to actually do their business as such ? I doubt very much.
AP
"But, if they just source the raw wire, repackage and then just resell without having done any of their own geometry, shielding etc..etc.., this would be a fraudulent act for sure and they should be held liable for whatever the law would indict"Actually no, in my opinion, that is not fraud. If, however, they advertised that.
1/ They have exclusive expertise in the field
2/ Their expertise enables them to design a superior product
3/ Their expertise enables them to hand fabricate superior products
4/ Their expertise ensures the final product embodies the attributes you'd expect to pay premium for.
5/ The price and function of the product fairly reflects this exclusive expertise.If the above conditions are met and if their final product in reality was created independent of the above expertise and available for a remarkably lower price elsewhere, then it's my belief that meets the conditions of mis-leading or deceptive advertising practises.
You would never see this or even be aware of it unless you actually compare them sonically. This is what will put this whole epic to rest..(positively or negatively), IMHO. Is there any other way to determine this ?AP
"You would never see this or even be aware of it unless you actually compare them sonically"Maybe, maybe not.
"This is what will put this whole epic to rest"
This is getting surreal, are you serious?"
objective information are willing to accept subjective opinion from the same person. Mind boggling.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Without a listening comparison, you cannot reach a final decision, no matter what I or anybody else says here. I respect all the views said here but I really can't agree to condemn JPS based on just a printed serial number or whatever else for that matter.FWIW, I have never heard JPS cables and have no hidden issues in defending or not defending them.
One thing I do know and this is not a secret to anyone, Harmonic Technology and Acoustic Zen both use almost the same raw materials
and most probably also the basic raw wires used in the manufacture of their cables. I wouldn't also be surprised if they were sourcing this from the same place. On top of that, they both shared the SAME designer at diferent time intervals. Pick any IC from either brand
and you will see that they sound COMPLETELY different despite using the same raw materials etc...The other surprise here is that I've also listened to the cables of their supplier and there is nothing remotely resembling, sonically, any of the H/T or AZ cables. Meaning that H/T and AZ are both doing their own special design recipes to the 'raw' cables they are using.
The point is, again, you HAVE to make a sonic comparison in the JPS / Eupen case. Any prior arguments or indictments are basically useless, with all due respect.
This is where I stand and where I hope others would too, until a proper listening comparison has been actually performed.
AP
comparison per se, but with folk wanting ME to do and report on it. That's what was troublesome. The same folk that would not accept objective information (information that stays the same regardless of our opinions) from Steve and me , and even bordered on calling us liars, seem to think that we would be trustworthy to give a SUBJECTIVE opinion (subjective=changes with attitude, emotional state, biases etc).Now I like to think that I can be totally objective no matter what my biases or emotional states are (yeah, right) but why on earth would the people that damn near called me a liar think so?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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