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In Reply to: What about a under 1K reference system.. posted by taco on June 22, 2003 at 08:13:40:
Hi.Thanks for writing.
Time for today's Greek lesson.
No, that was not an X-rated reference.
The Greek rhetorical term for "a contradiction in terms" is "oxymoron." The usual example being "military intelligence."
Unfortunately, most people pronounce it as though it was made up of equal parts the beginning of the word "oxygen," and "moron," as in not too bright.
ox-ee-MORE-on.
That is wrong.
In Greek, the syllable stress is on the "antepenult;" the "one before the next to last."
So the correct pronounciation is occ-SIM-uh-run.
By this time, I think you have figured out that I don't think that the words "reference system" and "$1000" belong in the same sentence, paragraph, county, or zip code. Just like "4 inch woofer."
If a system cannot at least make relatively undistorted sound at pretty much the same level for all the keys on a grand piano, at all volumes from ppp to fff, I think it is playing tennis without the net to call it a "reference" for anything.
I have tried dozens of components in an effort to establish what is the least a classical music lover can pay for a buy it once and buy it right system that can do the above, plus orchestral and organ, and that is more like $10,000.
If having a $40,000 or a $10,000 car is more important to someone than having a good stereo, that it fine, it is a free country. I knew a kid in college who drove a beater because he had asked his parents to give him a good violin instead of a new car. It's all about your priorities.
Yes, I know--vacation home systems, office systems etc. Been there, covered that.
Thanks,
John
Follow Ups:
Do you think you could tell whether a system cost over $10,000 or under $1000 by just listening to it without seeing it? How long would you have to listen before you were reasonably certain that your answer was accurate? What odds would you lay?
You can devise a test that may make a $1,000 speaker sound as good as a $10,000 speaker, if you pick the music.If I pick the music, I can tell a lot more, and given the realities of physics and economics, I have 80% confidence factor that any system I say gets the particular job done, will be near $10,000.
I never claimed to be able to tell whether "a system" cost over $10,000 or under $1,000.
Truth be told, at HE 2003 the Usher "Sonus Faber Emulation" speakers at $1,000 a pair to my ears reproduced mezzo-soprano and classical guitar at modest but real-world volume levels with more timbral accuracy and timing information than did the big Vandersteens, which I think are near $10,000. So I am not making any general claims.
And don't even draw solid conclusions from that: the Usher room was tweaked with RPG Skylines and the speakers were well away from the walls; the Vandersteens were too big for the small room they were in.
But it would only take me 60 seconds to tell whether a system could fill the room with Brahms' German Requiem in the Telarc Shaw recording, including the organ pedals, with good imaging and soundstage size and lack of excess sibilants on the choral entry.
And, you are shocked--shocked--to learn that in my experience, the least expensive system that can do that consists of Shahinian Obelisks, a Plinius 8200, and a Marantz SA-14. Add wires and you are right at $10,000.
Perhaps you can cut a corner here or there, but this precise test case is one I worked on for 18 months while at TAS, and I am 95% confident that I can tell whether the German Requiem is more there than not, and 80% confident that that can't be done for much less than $10,000 all-in.
But I cheerfully admit that on test material with limited dynamic range, loudness, and image size, such as the aforementioned mezzo and guitar disc, a smaller less expensive speaker with a good midrange will sound better than a larger more ambitious speaker that costs a lot more but does not get the midrange right. But put Mahler on the shoebox, and the limitations become apparent.
So, here's a friendly challenge: spec out a system that can deliver most of what is in the first three minutes of the Telarc Shaw German Requiem, that will sound as good as the Obelisk/8200/SA-14 system I mention above, and cost significantly less, and tell us all about it.
Cordially,
John
John:Just my guess, but I think Norm was trying to get you to admit that the correlation between price and performance IS fallible. God knows, I have heard many high priced speakers that were nauseatingly bad.
Cheers,
Dan
Sure, even when you are talking about good speakers, the diminishing returns set in at some point.And if you are talking about triumphs of ideology over experience and common sense, you can get speakers that throw a remarkably huge soundstage, and that can pressurinze the room as though there really was an organ right over __there__, but the upper midrange just sounds off, and that can set you back $75,000.
My point was that you __cannot__ do justice to a work that involves full orchestra, 32' organ pedals, 120 singers plus two soloists, with a bookshelf loudspeaker that costs under $1000.
Musical sound is organized logarithmically. Go down one octave--eight notes--and you double the wavelength being propagated. For every octave you go down, the speaker has to be twice as big, or you have to resort to tradeoffs like ports, with their associated issues of resonances and impedence dips. There is no free lunch.
The least expensive speakers I have found that can do justice to the Telarc Shaw German Requiem are the Shahinian Obelisks, now at $4,000/pr.
I'd love to hear other nominations!!!!!
I'm sure you are aware that Webster indicates that the primary stress is on the third syllable and the secondary stress is on the final syllable.äk-si-'mOr-"än.
How were we to know otherwise? ;-)
Regards,
Metralla
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