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Reading the post right below this got my attention. Now I realize the post below is just a troll but it got me thinking about my new amp. I've owned most every mid-fi amp you can think of and more than a few "hi-end" models. I just got a Bryston 3B-SST last Friday. The Bryston is so clearly better than any amp I've ever owned that it's noticable pretty much from the first note. Anyone who truely thinks all amps sound the same just haven't heard a really good amp. I could go on and on about what this amp does "better" than others I've heard but that's not the point. It just sounds "true" and seems effortless in it's presentation. Amazing really. The only thing that bothers me is I've spent YEARS carefully researching, reading reviews, matching and most of all listening to amps only to receive the Bryston as a gift from my wife. First time out and she buys a better amp than I've ever owned before. Scheech.
Follow Ups:
Obviously my statement is untrue as it's also the look and feel which determine 'best' for an individual; I just wanted to talk about breasts! :0)
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Hey Merle,I remember you giving up on reproduced sound about 15 months ago and then purchasing an inexpensive system that "did it" for you. At the time I was looking for a natural/souful sounding CD player and noted your Sony DVP-725 recommendation....this was all before the 3950 became a rave.
After looking at all the "who's who" amps that you have owned (along with the associated ups and downs), it is encouraging (for the industry) that not all amps sound the same.
While we are the the topic of Bryston, here is an interesting post you might read about equipment that relaxes you versus those that demand your attention . At any given time in an audiophiles growth/"upgrade level", one might prefer on or the other. Another slant on this is the following post comparing a lower end system to a higher end system in terms of musicality.
How do you see your Bryston serving you at this point and do the articles put a context on your previous amps ?
PeAK
All good points. I truely do not think I'll ever have a "last stereo", I like playing with gear too much. I believe one can assemble a satisfing system on whatever budget they may have. What I need to learn is how to be happy with what I have. Not easy for me, regardless of whatever system I may have at the time. Is the Bryston "it" for me? Probably not. But when it does go, it will probably be for the sake of something different rather than because of anything "wrong" with the Bryston. It is a very, very nice amp and I believe anyone who listened to it would come to the same conclusion. Someone with a NAD system can get just as much enjoyment from that as I'm currently getting from the Bryston. Stereo's do not have to be expensive to bring out the joy of music. By the way, at the time of the NAD, I had a pair of Shamrock SE-1's. I now own the Keelins. Shamrock makes fantastic loudspeakers.
All amps definitely don't sound the same. Speaker impedances are all over the place and some amps handle this better than others. How much difference there is between well designed amplifiers depends on what you are driving with them. For the most part these differences are blown out of proportion by reviewers who get paid to make mountains out of molehills. And for the bazillionth time, reviewing amps without direct, level matched, abx comparisons really doesn't mean squat. Many times "huge" differences have completely disappeared under controlled testing. Reviewers won't do it because no one wants to endanger their pet preconceptions by irradiating them with cold hard facts. Enjoy your new amp. By all accounts it's a nice one.
I must be lucky too. My wife got me a Sim Audio W-5 for Xmas last year. Great amp....
C'mon, ,fess up, did you go to another planet to get them?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
found your wife? I would give my left...well, nevermind.... for a wife like that!!Then again, maybe she bought the Bryston out of self-defense? Maybe your other gear was hurting her ears? :)
Rippy,I was gonna ask him if he changes his 'significant others' often as his gear!
and someone's got to do it. Personally, I'm very thank glad that Merle tries out all this affordable stuff and posts his experiences on AA. I know that I've learned things from him over the years that made my audio purchases easier. And yes, he tends to be enthusiastic about whatever he's using at the moment, but that's no sin. All amps do NOT sound the same, and I need someone witht the time and money to shorten my shopping list. Thanks, Merle!
Merle, your wife sounds great. Unlike your past audio gear, I'd hang on to her for as long as possible if I were you.
SST series can hold its own against most anything out there if the setup favors the Bryston (synergy is ALWAYS a factor). In my case I have had it against Thresholds, Levinsons, Jolidas (tho the Jolida is a sweetheart), Spectrons (still part of the biamped system), Art Audio (amazing amps,if the SETS only had more power..), Rogue, ASL,Plinius,Atma-sphere. All fine amps.All the above amps had something that they did best; Levinson was "purer" on top, Threshold was warmer, and so on. What the Bryston has that draws me back everytime is BALANCE and a midrange tunefulness that even many tubes lack (Art Audio Diavolo has it in spades too).
The well-meaning fellow that said that it is easy for tubes to beat a sand amp "especially a Bryston" just hasnt worked with one long enough to find the synergies. I have a number of friends converting their systems from tube to SS based on what they heard here.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
The Benchmark DAC1 straight in to the DBX digital crossover, thence to the amps. When I have more sources I have either a BP25 (a tad elevated in the bass region) or the Spectral DMC30S to use as a preamp (if your source has brightness, you will know it for sure). I tried various tubed pre's and stuck with the SS preamps. I am using Analysis Plus Oval 9 on the speakers; this cable allows the Bryston to be very extended yet smooth. Goertz Silver Triode Quartz feeds the amps; same comment, smooth and extended in both directions.From the Dac to the crossover I use either Empirical Audio Holophonic Silver (extreme detail and dynamics) or Analysis Plus Copper oval (forget which exact model, more warmth and smoother), depending on my mood that week .
Sometimes, just to excercise it, I use the Threshold T-200 on top to drive the ribbons.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Thanks for posting the info.Do you use the Benchmarks volume control? through the variable Balanced XLR outputs? and it sounds ok?
I also have a BP-25 and covet it for its headphone output and remote volume control amoung other things. From what I gather, the Benchmark has a great headphone output. Do you have any regrets about not having remote volume control or have any opinions on the Benchmarks or Brystons headphone amp?
Thanks!
Oh, and one more question!!!! Since I have the older power supply for the BP-25 I have no way to check this out, but is the BP-25 impacted by any power cord swaps/changes?
the Benchmarks volume control. Even when going into a preamp I prefer to use the volume control as the control seems to be a better unit than the ten-turn pots on the rear. At least, it sounds better! In either case, you are using the internal preamp. No getting around that. By the way, unlike my Levinson, the Benchmark is sensitive to power conditioners ($6800 DOES buy something; my ideal would be benchmarks digital section and Levinsons power supply.) A balanced power transformer does wonders with the Benchmark!Your BP25's power supply would be more sensitive to the power cord changes than the new one is; I have to strongly say GET THE NEW power supply! It is some $350 and can be ordered direct from Bryston. It makes a HUGE change to the preamp's sound. I have both, and the difference is stunning; width, height, depth, and transients improve a great deal. The BP25's tonal balance remains mostly the same,with a tad more extention into the lower reaches of bass. The power supply was the reason all the reveiwers started to go ga-ga over the preamp, thinking that it was a new design. Nope, all that was changed was the PS.
I am not a big headphone man, but the differences between the BP25 and the Benchmark seems to be in transparancy; the Benchmark seems more transparent than the BP25 is. YMMV.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Bryston tells me that any preamp with the long rca plugs coming out the back is identical to the most recent, except for the power supply. That would be 98 and newer. So if your BP20 or BP25 is 98 or newer, it is a great candidate for the new power supply. It can be one of the best investments you can make in this hobby.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
I saw your list of tube amps below. The Bryston is a well designed good amp. What solid state memories are you comparing it to?
Like I said, I'm a bit of a gear head. :) One's I remember off the top of my head:
Too many Adcoms to list
Parasound 1000A
Complete Naim system [entry level seperates]
Naim Nait 2
Naim Nait 3
Complete Rega system [Mira]
Conrad Johnson 2250
Too many Rotels to list
AVA [don't remember the model number but I think I bought it from AA member Marc Brattan]
Too many NAD's to list
Various Arcam integrated
Various Jolida hybrids
LFD Mistrial
Audio Refinement Complete Alpha
Exposure integrated [don't remember the model #]
Classe CAP 100
I'm sure there are others but these come right to mind. Please don't ask me about speakers! :)
You SOLD that AVA I sold ye? I cut that price to the BONE...took a bath on it, I did! But that's not your fault, as I'd paid too much for it...somebody hit a homer that day, I can tell you! That was an AVA OmegaIII 260. Balls, bass and dynamics galore, but definitely not as refined a midrange as a good tuber, fer sure.That's why I sold it...went to straight tube CJ MV75A1 after that, and have since settled on the excellent Forte 4a, 'cause my speakers just flat out need SS grunt. With my speakers, the mids are amazingly close, even though another gent posted the opposite experience. Still I am definitely a tube lover...may have to find some planars that'll work optimally with tubes one day.
The Bryston is a keeper. (I do not own one, btw, just base my opinion on what I know of the design, on test measurements (not "specs"), and on the word of RE Greene, whose opinion on such matters has never steered me wrong.)
....the Bryston would be collecting dust in no time.
and what good tube amp would that be?
Ok....let's see. It wouldn't take too much to best most sand amps, especially a bryston.Conrad Johnson (you pick the model)
Music Reference RM9 Mark I or II
Dynaco Mark IV monos
Kora (you pick the model)
Anthem Amp-1Any of those would do it, provided the speakers are matched accordingly.
Seems like a lot of folks who like tubes end up there. I did I have 2A3's and 45's Monoblocks.Ever tried SET with efficient speakers?
Cut-Throat
Nope, not yet. But ya never know....
IMHO they are the most Tubelike of any amplifiers. Try a 2A3 and see.It will take you to a whole new level!
Cut-Throat
Tubes amps owned:
CJ CAV50 [also had a CJ 2250]
Anthem Amp 1
Anthem Integrated 1 [still have one]
Jolida 707A
Jolida 502B
Jolida 302B
Jolida 102A
Jolida 102B
Cayin TA30
Bottlehead Parasex
Bottlehead Paramour
ASL Wave 8's
Various vintage tubed receivers
All of the above were/are good amps. I'm also sure there have been others I'm just not thinking of at the moment. I also would take the Bryston over any of them. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
None of the above list is a prime example of good tubed amps. I certainly wouldn't judge tubed gear solely by that collection.
Yes, I've heard most of them.
Jack
Those are all DECENT tube amps (I have owned the Jolida Jd302b before and it was pretty nice). However, you should try one of the better VTLs, BAT VK75, Music Reference RM200 (heard this sound wonderful with a Hovland preamp), Audio Research VT100 etc. These will outperform the Bryston significantly in terms of make the music breathe more like live (with appropriate recordings of course. You can't replicate what isn't on the recording).
What are the list prices of these amps you are recommending? Don't all these amps cost at least 1.5X the 3B-SST? Most well over 2X?
based on reading the many/many/many/many/many previous posts you have made about recently acquired gear.You LOVE most everthing "new" incorporated into your system(s) until something "more new" comes along.
Your foray into 300B SET amplifiers failed to match such with any suitable/synergistic speakers (just a single example) and now this info is a part of the library others will research.
Hopefully new/old inmates will run complete searches based on your opinions.
I had to laugh when I read the post. Merle like many of us does tend to "fall in love fast".I'm sure Merle remembers the time I accused him of being over zealous about Cayin. I think I even labeled him Cayins 'Biggest Cheerleader. Damn that was a fun thread ")
joy in his life on a day to day basis - than myself. My motto has always been kinda/sorta..."If I liked it I would be disappointed."
You make a very adulterous point comrade.
No doubt I'm a gear head. That fact doesn't make the Bryston any less of a good amplifier. I've had quite a few good amps, I'm not saying the Bryston is the best amp in the world. What it is however, is one damm fine sounding amp. And just for the record, I've never owned a 300B amp. I've heard quite a few. I've own a few 2A3's, the original Parasex amp, many push/pulls using El34's, KT88's, EL84's, ect. I've also owned single driver loudspeakes [diy], Triangles, Klipsch's, ect., many that worked quite well with low power tube amps.
> > > No doubt I'm a gear head. < < <
You're not just a gearhead, you are a *cheap* gear head. If memory serves me, in the past, you have been sticking in the lower price ranges-$1K for amps, <$2K speakers, <1K CDP. The Bryston is the first peice of gear you've owned that was in the medium price range.
Jack
I agree, although I prefer "bottomfeeder" to cheap. I suppose I could bust the bank and settle with one "good" stereo but like I said, I like playing with gear. I am fortunate enough to where I can swap gear within a certain budget in and out pretty much at will. I found out long ago I prefer this rather than sticking with one set-up.
It seems that you are interested in hearing the equipments more than the music. If you can get one setup that can deliver the music right with the system disappearing in your room, why you care to swap the equipments in and out?
I'm as big of a music lover as you are likely to find. I am ALSO an incurrable gear head. Frankly, I think the two go together quite well.
half the fun is in seeing what I can accomplish by playing with the gear! And yes, I have made changes to "improve" the sound that lost the "magic" for weeks until I figured out what I did wrong. What we gain by doing all that is KNOWLEDGE on what is really going on in our systems. And often what we find out is diametrically opposed to what Audiophiles in general think is the case!To those that want to buy a system and never mess with it again, more power to you. But tube gear is seldom such a system...soon you are sucked into the darkness; tube rolling late at night,new vibration sinks/isolators,tube socks, and many other tweaks. You end up being as much a gear head as Merle and I....Muhahahahahah!
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
> > > I've owned most every mid-fi amp you can think of and more than a few "hi-end" models. < < <
I don't think you've owned *any* "high-end" amps, until you got the bryston, and even then some would argue otherwise.
Jack
Scheech. I would prefer not to get into an argument over what YOU would consider "hi-end". At the same time, I would like to think the likes of C-J, Naim, Anthem and others would at least be a step up from the "low-end". People who look down on others equipment are the worst kind of audiophile. The only difference between the music lover with the Rotel system and the clown with the Mark Levinson set-up more times than not is just income. I could afford to buy a system that YOU would approve of. I choose not to. I get my enjoyment from the music and the fun of trying different stuff, not the price of the gear.
I like some of CJ's stuff, but their entry level amps are just that.
Anthem is/was Sonic Frontier's entry level line.> > > The only difference between the music lover with the Rotel system and the clown with the Mark Levinson set-up more times than not is just income < < <
While I'm not aa big fan of the ML sound, I'll stick with your example.
The difference between people with a Rotel system and a ML system isn't just income, its also EARS. If you think they sound the same, or comperable, you are a fool. While I don't always advocate buying deep into the deminishing returns curve, there is a difference. If you ever get out of your endless mid-fi cycles, you might be aware of different levels of sophistication.> > > I could afford to buy a system that YOU would approve of. I choose not to. < < <
Then you will be stuck in your endless mid-fi cycle.
I hope I am mistaken, but are you saying YOU are the arbiter of what sounds good? (Aside from your own system of course.)For all you know, Merle HAS heard the "sophisticated" stuff at friends houses or at dealers, and just decided that the difference wasnt worth the difference; or that, in this case, the Bryston actually sounded BETTER than many of those other systems (an opinion that is shared by more than a few long-time audio-nuts).
Was it you or one of the others that strongly reiterated the need for synergy? The Bryston is good enough that it can be made to sound truly excellent by good matching (and truly awful by bad matching).
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
> > > I hope I am mistaken, but are you saying YOU are the arbiter of what sounds good? < < <
No. Show me where I said that.> > > For all you know, Merle HAS heard the "sophisticated" stuff at friends houses or at dealers < < <
Perhaps, but if so, he didn't say so in either of his lists of equipment.> > > and just decided that the difference wasnt worth the difference; < < <
That's NOT what he said. He said the ONLY difference (more often than not)was incomes.> > > the Bryston actually sounded BETTER than many of those other systems < < <
Perhaps. I've heard enough Bryston gear over the years to know they are not for me.My point was, that Merle was bragging about all the "high-end" gear he had/listened to, but his experience is mostly of entry level gear.
The comment about Rotel Vs. ML only reinforces my opinions.
Jack
Having read all the threads in this post in one sitting and agree with you.rw
But really, what is your axe to grind concerning what he buys and whether or not he is happy with it? (Even if only for a short time.)I read the whole thread trying to find WHAT he might have said that could have pissed you off and gotten you to write what was, after all, a rather bitchy set of posts.
All I saw was a guy posting that he liked his new Bryston very much, probably for at least two reasons: one, his wife bought it for him, and two, it is a genuinely good product. As he wrote, he doesnt think it is the best in the world, just very good!
Is there some bad blood between you two?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Had you confused with someone else.
I also would agree that I'm not the best person to ask for gear advice. I do tend to like gear for the sake of gear. I see no problem swapping out what might be a perfectly fine amp for another. By the way, the warrenty on the Bryston will expire when I'm 64, think I can keep it that long? :)
I can always placate any lingering doubts by thinking, "Well, Merle liked this."Except if I get the Portal integrated. Don't think you've had one of them. Yet. ; )
- This signature is two channel only -
You know, I've had my eye on that Portal integrated. :)
When I'm Sixty-Four(The Beatles)
When I get older losing my hair many years from now
Will you still be sending me a valentine,
Birthday greetings, bottle of wine?
If I'd been out til quarter to three would you lock the door?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?Oh, you'll be older too - Ah
And if you say the word, I could stay with youI could be handy mending a fuse when your lights have gone
You can knit a sweater by the fireside,
Sunday mornings, go for a ride
Doing the garden, digging the weeds, who could ask for more?
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?Every summer we could rent a cottage in the Isle of White,
If it's not too dear
We shall skrimp and save, grandchildren at your knees,
Vera, Chuck, and DaveSend me a postcard, drop me a line stating point of view
Indicate precisely what you mean to say,
Yours sincerely, wasting away
Give me an answer, fill in a form, mine forevermore
Will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four?
Wny would you criticize someone for getting new equipment that he thinks is better?
First of all, I am not aware of anyone who seriously believes that all amps sound the same. Indeed, the measurements of amps with high output impedances (as most tube amps do) and those with low outpt impedances indicate they likely will not sound the same into most speaker loads. There is even a standardized test for this and it is easy to see the results on the Soundstage and Stereophile sites.Whether your Bryston amp sounds different from your receiver is a testable issue. It doesn't sound as if you level matched them, much less matched the levels at 100 Hz, 1000 Hz, and 10,000 Hz.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat this isn't a straw man that Merle has brought up. There are a very small minority of audiophiles and even a professional reviewer or two, who are dead serious and believe all amps sound the same.
Strange that no one provides references to where some knowledgeable person says that all amps sound the same. Silly statement.Here is an amp that does not sound the same: check the frequency response into the simulated speaker load. Nothing particularly arcane about this one.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
I don't know how small the minority is, or how professional the reviewers are, but I've always heard it as properly designed solid state amps operating within their power limits should sound the same. This asumes that they aren't clipping, that thd and imd are below levels of audibility and the amps are stable into any speaker load and don't exhibit any frequency response anomalies. Why would they sound different? (I take no position on this matter, except to try to clarify the point of view as I understand it.) Bad solid state amps, unstable into real world speaker loads, and tube amps whose FR will vary with speaker load, should sound different from good solid state amps.I've had different good amps in my home, and have decided that some of them sound different, but not different enough to buy, and some of them sound the same.
A lot of amps sound identical to me even sighted or so slight as to not be worth mentioning. I have also heard little difference in amps with speakers that have very limited dynamics like Quad electrostatic panels. Hook a Bryston to that and I seriously doubt you will notice the difference because the Brystons are created and referred to as the woofer conrolling amplifier. There is no woofer in a Quad to control.The level matching thing is total BS and typical of the engineering version of science whcih of course isn't a science so let's be totally clear that Engineering is NOT in an way at all zero zilch nad should be tdoing psychological testing. What is it with engineers man even in life they think they're degree is all encompassing - go build a bridge and stay the hell out of human sciences.
There is a very easy down and dirty way to do an SBT which BTW is more than any normal person requires let the AES bicker all they want about their standards(whcih are a joke) and find out yourself.
If my receiver direct button isn't enough for you - and that is really easy then go to some place that has a line level Headphone amp. This device is great because it has 4-8 headphone sockets each with its own volume control - at the other end you can connect 4-8 cd players. Your change tie is far faster than any other ay to do it and will keep the naysayer folks and their nonsense about time delay(which if they had a clue would know is another fallacy) at bay. I can hear Sarah McLachlan 8 Months ago and if you put on 12 tracks I know which one Sarah is - of course according to them are acoustic memory is horrible.
Anywho, listen to the cd player through good cans say a Senn HD600. Have the players use the exact same cd same track. Listen - adjust the volume a fair amount as you would in a normal listening environment - not being able to adjust as you go is not VALID. Then move onto the next player and the next. Keep listening. It has nothing to do with volume it has to do with how it sounds. Real simple to do anybody can and it takes under a half hour - and best of all you can do it blind - the dealer can hook up three players push the play button on all of them out of site and there you go. Before each new player set the volume back to zero as to not give any player an advantage.
For amplifiers - same thing applies set volume to zero before each amp play as younormally would at home - next amp. Use a learning remote with three input devices so it can control 3 amplifers' volume knobs or however many you are testing. An amp is not limited in REAL LIFE to 80db. Listen the way you would at home - don't get insane with the volume just in case one of the receivers on test can't do it.
Use a dark light or something so that you can't see the amplifiers volume knob when turning - doesn't matter if you SEE the amp in this case. You could easily have higher end amps in there because many uses Remotes like MF, Arcam, and your cheapie Pioneer etc.
Uese my speakers to make the load extremely easy - The AN J is 93db and does not dip below 5ohms making it a bit easier than the E. This speaker can be driven deafeningly off of 8 watt SETs so Pionner's claimed 100Watts in their $149 special should work fine and supposeldy not clip or have any trouble.
Listen to your collection for a few hours. Mark your inputs A, B and C. keep track via paper. Mark down at the end of that time which unit sounded best, A B or C. Do this over a few days. At the end of these you uncover which one scored best and that's the one you LIKED sonically the best at playing your collection at the volume you wanted. If at the end you feel they all sounded pretty much identical (which is perfectly plausible) then you take the one that's cheapest. If C was total crap and A was to your ear easily the best that's the one to buy.
People make this so hard...the person you need to satisfy is you not Floyd Toole or the accountants running Harmen International not the AES not nobody but you. This is a helluva lot closer to validity than being out in a test environment no matter how they like to ease it. Like IQ tests which have been shown to be crap, this DBT is nearly as dangerous but too many stubborn engineers who don't bother to look beyond the bill of goods they were sold in engineering class.
My anger is evident I opologise but this issue just never ends - who cares? Buy it don;t buy it tell people cable A is better than Cable B - Caveat Emptor - do your own research that satisfies you - if at the end you believe Cable A is better than B buy it...it's not like the world is going to end if someone got conned out of $24,000.00 for subwoofer cable. If you had $24,000 for subwoofer cable you're tough to feel sorry for as it is.
Yes Bryston's older 3b was what made me realize that Receivers are a scam and DBT's are akin to medical science who blasted Dr. Atkins for 30 years except as it turns out Atkins was right all along and Low fat diets made people fat(look at the stats my firends it's plain as day). There are stil people on him of course with no shred of fact.Amplifiers of course make a difference - if a DBT doesn't find them that's fine - ask pychologists not engineers when conducting psychological tests like Audio DBTs - may as well ask engineers to do open heart surgery - they have an overinflated sense of their iown importance. DBT's don't detect them so they don;t exist? Err no they don'tdetect them because the test doesn't work.
Simply connect a Bryston to a receiver at ANY volume level you so desire and it will make a meal out of any Receiver currently sold on the market from Japan.(I'll leave NAD, Anthem, Arcam and Magum Dynalab among a few others out on the off chance they have a clue as to what music reproduction is about.
Want to hear an amp differrence - set everything to flat on your receiver and listen - then push the direct button - hear that difference - that is just a switch being taken out of the equation let alone an entire amp.
Using the American model of scientific methods is spurious as if it held any sort of secret to jack squat - it's especially bad becuase the Amercian Drug association controls the inustry. I went in for a check up and the Doctor here wants to give me Lipitor a drug that reduces cholesterol.
The fact that there is ZERO factual evidence that high Cholesterol leads to heart attacks - even though "they" (who's they anyway) say so is great but no proof. In fact the European documentation I've read supports that higher cholesterol can actually build protection around artery walls and is far better than cholesterol in the too low range. The fact that the drug comes with possible liver disease and several other side-effects thank you no. The worst thing you can do for your health is listen to Doctors when it comes to anything other than suregery for broken limbs - glorified plumbers but on human pipes. As diagnosticians they're useless.
As for audio - ask these engineering nimrods if they know what Validity is when they do these tests. They avoid as do they all psychological issues around the brain and brain research under test parameters - like religions they go for the simplest balck and white solutions - no grey areas because that would require critical thought. Like the food guide of balanced diets these engineers have been sold a bill of goods from their universities which is why most products on the market sound like unmittigated garbage - the engineers can't hear and design crap so we're to trust that they know how to conduct tests they didn't go to school for?
I may prefer the sound of other amplifiers namely SETs from Audio Note but at least Bryston has a clue and makes a startling improvement over receivers. and don;t give me the balony about impedence - my speakers were 8ohm 95db horn tweetered speakers - dead easy to drive.
Merle - if you get the chance listen to an Audio Notespeaker hooked up to an Audio Note OTO, Soro or Meishu Single Ended amplifier. This will shatter anything you've read about the inferiority of Single Ended amplification. They must give Engineering degrees to anyone that applies.
nt
notion that before you believe anything follow the money. When science or religion tell you something follow who is to gain what financially. No conspiracy theory but when major companies are involved in the research of anything chances are if it makes them more money it will be good for you - if it doesn't make them more money chances are it's bad for you.A quick look at the only research into why Eggs are bad for you will reveal that the study was done by the American Ceral Manufacturers(aka Kellogs). That was the major diet at the turn of the centuury bacon and eggs for breakfast(no heart attacks ever reported and vanishingly low obesity rates). A study people to this day spout off done by people who would rather you not eat Eggs and eat corn flakes. Corn Flakes are dirt cheap to make and huge profit margins. So eggs have high colesterol and will kill you. Gee they never did before but oh well. So now we eat our Coco Puffs and children at 12 are obese - but at least they're not eating eggs.
And then we trust Doctors who took all of one course on nutrtion that use textbooks with the same misinformation. Skim Milk is a cheaper to make solution which actually has a lot more Lactose than Whole milk or cream. Lactose is a sugar which will make you fatter than Cream ever will.
And of course the saddest part is the whole fear of death. If I die at 45 so what? it's bound to happen eventually. Sure I'd like to live to 75-80 or more but it isn't going to bother me. I'd far rather see money be put into education so people would be smart enough not to elect Republicans(ie Religion) who hear spirits talking to them every night. I may be insane but they're scary dangerous and have the US people doped up on drugs they probably didn;'t need to cure them and for which have side effects which they need more drugs to combat.
I hate to tell you this, but there is room for improvement in your Bryston.Electrolytics don't sound the best in the signal path, and all of the signal in your Bryston has to go through an electrolytic, C17, and C3 if you run the gain in the 1V position.
The fix is simple, just add a 0.1µF film cap in parallel.
The other problem is in the power supply, a 22µF needs to be added in parallel with each of the four main filter caps.
Adding these caps will give a big gain in clarity and imaging, and the bass will sound tighter and seem to go even deeper.
For a cost of less than $10 in parts.
Try it, if you don't like it you can easily reverse it back.
WARNING
Under no circumstances let a friend that has a low-fi amp like an Adcom do this mod to his amplifier and then bring it over for you to compare. It will make you cry.
those caps, at least not directly. C3 helps set the gain level at the 1 volt setting by SHUNTING part of the FEEDBACK (a very small percentage of the overal) signal to GROUND. The signal, per se, doesnt go thru the cap.Same with C17, it is the FEEDBACK cap, again the signal doesnt go THROUGH it, instead it acts as a shunt to ground to tailor the feed back properly.
So, in essence, a small percentage of the signal goes through the caps, ie, the whatever the feedback percentage is, and that only to go to ground.
In fact, unless I blinked and missed one, the amp is entirely direct-coupled; the only caps in the signal path being very small ones used to neutralize and stabalize.
I admit that the power-supply schematic is confusing, but each rail on each channel get two PS caps on the 3BSST and 4 PS caps on the 4BSST. You are right, of course, that these big electrolytics could be bypassed, but it is a bit of a (warranty busting) job to get to them the way they are placed on the board now. And in a discussion with Stuart, I was told "dont do it".
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
All the AC signal must go through those caps, if you were to remove them the amplifier would not amplify the signal at all, it would come out the same as it went in (unity gain).Why don't you short them out to see what they really do to the sound?
The one in the 1V switch circuit does nothing really, the DC gain only goes from 1 to 2 if you short it out.
Even if you short out the main feedback cap the DC should be low enough for a short term listen.
Did you want me to remove OR short the cap? Those are different things as follows:If I remove the cap , as in an open circuit, I get an amp (stage) with no global feedback. This means MORE gain, not less. Also of course, it means more distortion. If you look closely, you will see that when the 1 volt switch is engaged it sends the negative feedback signal to ground via C3 and R3. R3 and R8 thus form a voltage divider reducing the feedback voltage to the negative (feedback) leg of the op-amp. C3 is dc blocking and low frequency pole setting for the amp. (Not sure how important the pole setting is on this amp...some, like early Thresholds could have a "thump" if the value of this cap was too large.)
On the power section, again, you can see that the combination of C17 and R48, along with R39, set the value of the feedback voltage applied to the negative (feedback) input on the differential amp. Again, R48 and R39 set the voltage level as they form a voltage divider, and C17 sets the low frequency pole and block dc.
If I short the cap, I get a feedback loop that is not frequency tailored at the low end (plus messing with the dc). If I were to REDUCE the capacitance greatly on either loop, I would get a reduced bass, and a tilted square wave.
You will NOT get unity gain as the resistors r3 and r8 set the absolute feed back level (again ignoring dc effects) on the input stage, as R39 and R48 does on the power section. Both caps set the low frequency pole for the amps (along with blocking dc of course).
How do I know this? Because I HAVE worked on this same loop on other amps and watched the scope screen to see what I get. I HAVE experimented with different values in that loop, just not on this particualar amp (it being new, and I not wanting to screw up a warranty with a slipped soldering iron or somesuch).
The bulk of the signal DOES NOT go through either cap in the sense of a coupling cap. A PERCENTAGE of the feedback signal goes through the cap(s). Now, if you want to argue that a shunt cap,whose job it is to send a signal to ground as these do, is just as important in that any nonlinearities in the cap effect the feed-back loop that is fine. I just dont think it is equal to the effect one gets on a coupling cap through which the entire signal must go.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
You are dead wrong.If the cap is removed there is 100% feedback and it becomes unity gain.
I'm sorry you don't understand these simple things.
I looked at it this evening....Arrggh....If I removed the cap and did not ground R48 I wouldnt get NO feedback, I would get MORE feedback as the ground portion of the ac voltage divider would be missing. But...you are not correct either, it would not necessarily be unity gain as the current draw of the transistor and R39 would still limit the feedback. Depending of course, on how the value for R39 was figured. R48 and C17 can still set the low frequency pole for the circuit. If I shorted R39 AND lifted the cap...yes, no argument, unity gain.
As you can see there is no "unity gain" occurring in the input circuit. If you open the circuit to the capacitor, by switching to the "2volt" setting...the gain does go DOWN, but not to unity gain . This is because you switched out the C3 R3 portion of the voltage divider. Again,look at R7 and R8, they set the over-all feedback on the op-amp; it is very clear to see in the "2volt" setting. When in the "1 volt" setting, the cap is switched in and, in conjunction with R3 form an ac voltage divider with R8. But, no unity gain occurs with the C3 out of the circuit. I think, though, that we were pretty much in agreement on C3.
My basic point is this, the cap sees all the signal that HAS ALREADY gone through the amp,but not to the load, and its negative contribution to the sound would be what the current going through going through it produces as a voltage drop across it and thus being presented to the "negative feedback" terminal of the differential. And the 500 ohm resistor goes a long way to minimise that even further. I just dont see any sonic benefit in messing with this cap. Its only effect is what it can drop onto the feedback leg.
Again, both Chris Russel and Stuart Taylor both say to leave it alone; they have it the way they want it. Their statement is that in that circuit the cap is as linear as possible, that bypassing it would introduce non-linearities that are not planned for in the amps design. As in VOIDING THE WARRANTY. I am not yelling here, it was spoken in all capitals...
Also, when I spoke to the Threshold engineers when I was messing with a Stasis amp some years ago, there comment was "Leave that cap alone". If it was old or dry, they would replace it free, but they didnt want anything there but what they chose.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
It seems I am some years out of date. I wrote to Bryston, and they no longer voice any real objection to bypassing caps; they even say that, though any damage you do from messing up the amp is a charged repair, the amp returns to full warranty after the repair!! Gotta love that attitude!I asked about the loop, Chris told me that R39 is too low a resistance to keep the system from going to unity gain if C17 is lifted; HOWEVER he strongly advises me NOT to attempt that as the amp appears to not be open-loop stable with the present compensation.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Chris Russel and Stuart Taylor both have stated that bypassing an coupling electrolytic, if properly used in the circuit, and of proper electronic quality, actually makes the circuit LESS linear in the audio range, not more.Of course, bypassing Power caps usually does help in the hf range.
I don't remember where, but Chris once wrote an article years ago and showed some of the measurements. In each case, bypassing the electrolytic COUPLING caps ended up accentuating one part or another of the audio band. Now, I admit that it could SOUND like an improvement, specially considering how many speakers (all) that wander from flat, but you have only changed the flavor, not improved the circuit.
Also you're out of date, the present series of Brystons have 8, thats right EIGHT, power supply caps PER CHANNEL. (Dont argue schematic, I just opened the amp and looked to be sure!) They borrowed a page from DNA and went to a more distributed mode power supply.
I have heard a number of modded Adcoms, they didn't much impress me, except with their ungodly amounts of heat.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
The fact that your wife would actually buy you an audio component is a miracle in and of itself. Hell would have to freeze over in order for my wife to even consider buying me a audio component.As for the question: Do all amps sound the same? What I have noticed when I have compared amps, or even preamps for that matter, is that sometimes it is not that a particular amp/preamp sounds better, but that the amp/preamp in question actually raise the level of performance of the partnering speakers. In other words, they have better synergy.
A good partnership (synergy) between components will allow each component to not only sound their best, but to also perform at their best. After all, is that not the ultimate goal?
I hope you keep and enjoy your Bryston for many years; however, you better keep and enjoy your wife "TILL DEATH DO YOU PART!" She is definitely a keeper!
and that she's a keeper _grin_Regards
Hi, Merle. I've never been able to figure that one out myself. I know you've owned a # of tube and SS amps and experienced wide differences in the performance.I know part of their argument that all amps sound the same is based on the fact that all amps simply amplify the signal and if two amps measure the same, say flat from 20-20,000hz, and low distortion they should sound the same.
Same camp generally also believes CD players sound the same since they are just reading data and all wiring sounds the same.
I've noticed that those who "preach" this don't follow their own advice. You can get a Sherwood receiver for $69 at CC and a Apex DVD/CD player for $29. How many of them actually do this?
Argued with a guy awhile back here at AA who said all amps sound the same. Did a search and found out coincidentially he owned a Bryston! I asked him why if a $69 CC receiver sounds the same as his $2500 Bryston. Then why buy the Bryston? His answer was reliability and prestige!! Give me a break.
You still own those Shamrocks and Vienna Acoustics?
I wouldn't say that all amplifiers sound the same. I would say that all well engineered amplifiers sound pretty much the same within the same operating range. If the two amplifiers are driving an easy load at conversation volumes, why shouldn't they sound the same? If they don't, one is adding or subtracting something. A large amount of something, in electronic terms, for the difference to be audible.As far as why you might buy a Bryston instead of a $69 receiver, they are designed for different workloads. For example, hook a pair of Magnepans to each unit. In a few of weeks, you will be walking the $69 receiver out to the trashbin.
it were, but they are seldom published as a "spec". I find that many amps seem to vary in how they handle a tone burst connected to a real speaker load. One way I did this was to have a mic setup in the room, take FFT shots of tone bursts and then compare them....amazing...some amps CAN actually make what goes in be what comes out...but not as many as I would have thought!!Someday I will get some REAL test gear...then I will be a posting madman....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
Did you ever think that it is WHAT is measured that is the problem rather than result. I can measure a Ferrari's height versus a Kia's height and they may be the exact same height so that obviously makes them the same value?Let's start with THD = Totally useless meaningless measurement to the reality to the way things sound. Then ask why we have wow and flutter measurments on CD players - to make cd players look good over tape decks and turntables to get people to buy cd players. talk about stacking the deck = even more meaningless than THD.
Analogy holds true. Just because you use 15 measurements to measure an amplifier - how about the 47 that exist but didn't get measured. Since the big corporation rules all they have dictated what is the standard and what gets measured. Started with CD. Their dynamic range calculation is absolutely a joke - The method was changed to make CD look better on paper than it really is - se the correct measuring process and CD is worse period.
Hi RGA, I have no question the measurements are not consistent from one manufacturer to another. Just stating what those who believe all amps, wires, etc. sound the same are basing their argument on; measurements.THD yes I'm old enough to remember the THD wars by the Japanese companies in the late 1970's. 0.005 THD Sansui's and such. Little did we know what a joke it was at the time since all the audio mags joined in the low THD hype.
Like I said I don't see how anyone really into audio can listen to a $300 amp and say it sounds the same as a $3000 amp listening on some decent speakers. Go to some higher end speakers and the differences are magnified.
I like your analogy of the Farrari and Kia. Just like a Farrari can go 80 so can a Kia. But it just ain't the same.
As Dick Pierce has always on RAHE for years but is conveniently lost on many audiophiles and Pat D alluded to in his post. Specifications are not measurements, two components can have the same specifications but widely different measurements.
I'll believe that Dick Pierce said that when I see it. Is that what he said or is it your interpretation of what he said? I suspect the latter.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
:-( and it is not a paraphrase
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=specifications+measurements&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=1BbUa.145109$H17.50989@sccrnsc02&rnum=7there are other references, but this is probably the most relevant to the discussion at hand.
regards
The VA Bachs are gone. [great speaker, should have kept them] I still have the Shamrocks. They have become my main speaker. What the Shamrocks do so well is balance. No part of the music stands out above any other. The Bryston really makes them sing. Mike McCall is a genius.
on a speaker famous for balance and you get...music.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
I guess women DO have better hearing than us guys (now there's a troll!), even when they don't listen to something!!! That's pretty funny Merle...
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