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In Reply to: RE: Simply not true that SINAD's all Amir cares about or tests for posted by Feanor on September 11, 2024 at 04:39:21
His ranking chart (higher is better LOL) is utterly useless to provide any correlation to what we hear. I learned that as a teenager in the 70s!
Follow Ups:
Not a single amp on that list I would be interested in owning...not even the Accuphase...
It is a simple metric that shows how high is the fidelity of the hi-fi, i.e. how large are the added artifacts! And as it is a single number you can make a league table. Whether that table tells you anything about perceived fidelity is another matter and I think Amir's position is that once you exceed a certain value there won't be a subjective difference (that is just my impression of some of his writings, I don't read them all). Perhaps an analogy is BMI, a single number that doesn't tell you exactly how healthy you are but it does give an indication. There are reasons why a high SINAD might not be perceived as accurate or desirable but that doesn't mean SINAD is not a thing, it just means SINAD deniers have to be at peace that their equipment is not top of the league.
Ah, the "All sufficiently good measuring amps all sound the same" trope...except one listen tells you that they don't!
how large are the added artifacts!
what nobody ever does unless they enjoy listening to uncorrelated sine waves.
What are your favorites? How about 500 hz? Maybe 2 kHz?
Whether that table tells you anything about perceived fidelity is another matter
Proven to NOT when the measure is reproducing dynamic music.
it just means SINAD deniers have to be at peace that their equipment is not top of the league.
At peace with absurdity? I was there fifty years ago. :)
nt
your own notion of musical reality.
Mine is found in concert halls and other live unamplified venues. From the LDS Conference Center to our living room with wifey's baby grand. Not a single metric.
We've had several exchanges around subjectivity vs objectivity. If you were to read them back I hope you'd find that we haven't really disagreed that much, if at all. As non-offensive low-order harmonics might mask offensive high-order artifacts I think your combative nature is masking your comprehension.
(who for some reason felt the need to step into my conversation with another inmate) is there is zero useful value to this metric.Not sure why you feel the need to repeat yourself about the "tin".
I fall into the observation camp where reality is determined by qualitative measures of the experience, not a two digit number doing something other than playing music.
Both of you seem to be like those who struggle communicating with folks who speak a different language. They think that by talking louder, that will somehow bridge the gap. It doesn't.
Edits: 09/11/24 09/11/24
was a hugely successful British advertising campaign for outdoor waterproofing wood stain and that phrase became part of the culture so I throw it in occasionally for nostalgia and homesickness sake.I am pretty sanguine about the measurement debate particularly as I enjoy my turntable and there is no way that medium can be defended as objectively accurate but is very enjoyable. But, SINAD is meaningful in a world of subjective reviewers because you can gauge the designer's intention - are they shooting for the lowest amount of artifacts or not. And if the latter we can then question why - is it because they are a lauded audio designer who has spent a long time experimenting and has some understanding of what they are doing (e.g. Nelson Pass) or a tweaker who has spent a long time experimenting but doesn't understand what they are doing or someone who is just a bad designer. Who do you most want to give your money too? I have seen some expensive gear shown up as unexcusably flawed by JA-classic's measurements. In one notable case, the designer spent column inches proclaiming his achievements only to be proved not just wrong but incompetent. The subjective review was great - the reviewer didn't know the novel feature didn't work when he listened.
On a larger scale, there is a lot of science denying in society. Saying that audio measurements do not correlate with enjoyment isn't science denying (and that should lead to more learnig of why) but, IMHO, saying that someone who lists those measurement results in magnitude order is clueless does.
Edits: 09/11/24
Why repeat yourself to me? Forgetful?On a larger scale, there is a lot of science denying in society.
Because a lot is just hooey lacking any notion of controls.
I just love other examples of audio *science* like a bogus interconnect test promoted by a speaker designer. Note: I changed ISPs and the embedded images are lost. I'll present them again. Surely as an engineer you have a capacitance meter like me. Replicate the test for yourself.
Edits: 09/11/24
Sorry If I used the 'says on the tin' twice. That does spoil the effect. But nice to know you remember my posts better than I do :) And now I know to stay away when you are berating an ASR-nause.
I have zero interest in cables, not even enough to think through what you're demonstrating. I do miss Duster though, he was entertaining.
One last word that you might find germane, yesterday I watched part of a long interview with Formula 1 car designer Adrian Newey and he talked about how the simulation tools and measurement systems have advanced dramatically since he started in F1 but he always takes seriously comments from the drivers about how the car performs even if what they say does not make sense to him based on his expectations of how the car should perform.
And now I know to stay away when you are berating an ASR-nause.
If you have something *new* to say to me, that's fine.
I have zero interest in cables
Ok. That's like a car enthusiast who has no interest in tires.
but he always takes seriously comments from the drivers about how the car performs...
BTW, we really enjoyed the experience at Silverstone this year even with all the mud!
I made that analogy years ago in a funny interaction with a clueless TV repairman who averred:
Likewise, the A-C power cord can have no effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic component ... none.
I just love non-experiential theorists!
That concept has always held true with audio as well. Lee Kuby, a Harman-Kardon engineer said this about his designs :
"It took H/K a year to design the Citation 11 preamplifier and seven months to improve it sonically"
Engineering theory is a great place to start...
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