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In Reply to: RE: Pass Labs X260.8s and Sound Labs M745s... posted by jeffreybehr on June 26, 2024 at 10:45:57
I thought you had a pair of Atma-Sphere Class D amps. How do those compare to the Pass Labs?
Follow Ups:
...they emit SO MUCH heat that I could use them only about the four months per year we're not refrigerating our homes.. Yes, Phoenix has 6 months of summer--mid-April thru mid-October--and 6 months of nonsummer, but it really is 'warm' enough in mid-March thru mid-November to have the 5-ton big hummer on.Maybe I ought to calculate the cost (off-peak*, of course) to determine the extra cost of operating them.. Hmm...(looking for specs)...500 Watts each = one kW per hour, times...say...3 hours per day = 1095 kW per year, times 15 cents per kWh, equals $164 per year.. The X260.8s draw 375 Watts each, so they cost 375/500*$164 or $123 per year, a difference of $41 PER ENTIRE YEAR! Hmm, I guess I've been too knee-jerky about this.. I do believe I'll get them running.
Thx!
.* Our plan's peak hours are 4PM - 7PM, weekdays (less holidays), with the peak rate double the off-peak rate.
Edits: 06/27/24
As you know, Class D amps should draw nearly nothing most of the time unless playing music. Even then, it's not a constant high-power draw with high heat dissipation. In other words, insignificant even if left powered ON 24/7.
On the other hand a pair of X260.8 Class AB amps at 375W ea minimum at idle left ON 24/7 (not that you would do such a thing!) would cost a bunch! Assuming a very modest 0.15 dollars per kWh and leaving the amps ON 24/7 that equates to:
0.75-kW X 0.15 X 24 X 365 = $985/year
Typical Class D monoblocks assuming 10 Watts ea at idle left ON 24/7:
0.010-kW X 0.15 X 24 X 365 = $13/year
and the wonderful sounding Class D amps won't heat up your home. I'd love to get your comments on how the Pass Labs mono pair sound compared to the Atma-Sphere Class D monos - someday when you have a moment.
...the sounds of Ralph's tubed amps, I found the C-Ds boring.
I agree. I found the dynamics limited, with mostly absent leading edge impact. Resolution at lower bass and mid-upper treble is also limited. It felt like a chore to listen for more than a few cuts.
Used with B&W 805 D4 and 805 D4 Signature, and Elac speakers.
We all do and it's a main story behind Atmasphere success :) For the same reason we don't divorce our wives ( they divorce us ) Cough, cough. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are ho hum , suck in the sack and can't cook for crap. Haha
Who would have thought?? Never believed that his Class D amps were as good as his OTLs...
There are two problems with using the class Ds on Sound Labs. The first is that they simply don't make the power- about 25 Watts- on that load.
The second is they take about 450 hours to break in by all accounts. You can read on our feedback page what happens when they are broken in, compared to our OTLs...
In the factory.
Warm regards
Sure, whatever.
So you really have to work with the controls on the rear to get anywhere with them. Add to that the fact that the class Ds seem to take about 3x as long to break in and you have a situation where most people would lack the patience. They would also be lacking power since our class Ds are only rated 100 Watts into 8 Ohms. That means about 25 Watts on a set of Sound Labs.
Our MA-1s make about 150 Watts on Sound Labs; for a solid state amp to keep up with them that amp would need to be rated 600 Watts entirely due to the impedance (which our OTLs don't mind at all).
So yes, whatever. You of all people should know that the speaker you use with an amp can make or break the situation. Would you honestly use an SET on a set of Magnaplanar Tympany 4s?? This is sort of the opposite of that; while tubes are generally unhappy with low impedance loads, solid state amps can't make power into high impedance loads.
I have owned many planar speakers, both electrostats and ribbons. For electrostats it really depends on the design, some work just fine with SS (like Acoustat) and some don't (like STAX). For planar magnetic speakers, some will actually work with SET because of the flat impedance. My Apogees actually sounded nice with a Cary SET. My BG planar drivers loved my KR Audio amp, with a second. KR on the 10 inch woofer.
So, the short answer is for electrostats, it depends. They have both high and low impedance , although my ACOUSTATS had relatively mild variance but my Stax had a wild impedance.
Planar magnetic speakers usually have a nearly flat impedance and so it is only low sensitivity that makes them not so SET friendly.
-
I've had not much of a problem SS or Tube at all with my Quad 57's and I've owned them for 45 years.
I'm not concerned with Orchestral SPL's either but, oh boy, do they sound sweet in the right 'system' (very revealing)
-
... plus, there's that 15 degree vertical treble dispersion.
In a way, they're the perfect loudspeaker for masochists.
Why, yes -- I do have a pair. Why do you ask?
;)
all the best,
mrh
The comment was WRT using an SET with ESLs, which won't work on Sound Labs. But I expect you might have some success on ESL57s, if you can get the SET to deal with the bass and treble impedances at the same time.
...hybrids, each of which draws 25 Watts at idle (that is, turned on; if the rear power switch is turned off, one draws 12 Watts). Thinking only about the cost to have these amps turned on and idling 3 hours per day before we hear any music...50 Watts (for 2 amps) per hour times 3 hours equals 150 Watts per day, times 365 equals 54,570 Watts per year, equals 54.6kWhours, times 15 cents per kWh equals only $8.2 per year! In contrast, that annual cost for the Passes would be $123, and for the A-Ss, $164.*Any of these amounts are certainly affordable, but some would argue that the higher amounts are a bit wasteful.
Inspired by you, I got the A-Ss running this afternoon, and I'll get the M1200s running this evening.. A 'weird' thing about the M1200s...every time I install them in my system, the system sounds very nice...musical, dynamic, big...but somehow I turn a bit snobbish and buy or at least install far-more-expensive amps.. I think the 1200s deserve a few weeks of musicmaking!
* This, of course, ignores the additional current drawn while amplifying a signal, but class-Ds are more efficient at that than are class-A anythings and also class-AB anythings, at least as far as this nontechie understands.
Edits: 06/28/24
My theory based on facts :HOT running Class A/AB amps run HOT for a reason. The power transistors are biased in an operating region for lowest distortion and best sonics constantly drawing lots of electricity and producing lots of wasted heat.... whether the music is playing or not.
For various reasons these solid state amps that idle and run HOT tend to sound best after being powered ON for a while. This is probably due to thermal mass (chunky aluminum heatsinks) and electronic circuitry that require time to stabilize to an optimum design temperature. In other words these amps with huge heat sinks start stone cold (ever feel a cold heat sink?) and can require an hour or more to fully 'heat up' and stabilize before sounding great.
I would argue that many of these solid-state amps require more power-ON warm-up time to sound good vs their vacuum tube counterparts - but that's another topic.
So what's a guy to do?
Here's the problem as I see it and have experienced for myself. When I listen to music I want to flip-ON the amp and start enjoying music. Not always, but I might listen for only 20 minutes then leave. I don't want to turn ON the amp, go make breakfast, shower and shave, read the paper, or perform other rituals to kill time. I don't want to accommodate the amp and its need for warm-up. I want the amp to fully accommodate my need, on demand, on my time, instantly sounding its best.
Before I retired I was more likely to sit down for listening sessions over the weekend. I would power ON my amp(s) on a Friday afternoon and leave them ON until Sunday night. Electric power consumption and heat be damned!
Can you imagine the electric cost of leaving these HOT SS amps ON 24/7 so they're always ready? *
Enter modern Class D amps :
Like you and others, I have auditioned and owned several Class D amps over the past 20+ years - along with various "traditional" Class A & AB amps. Class D has improved immensely over the years and I have fully embraced the benefits along with outstanding Class D sonics.
- Class D amps sound great within a minute or three of Power-ON. No long warm-up.
- Class D amps are very power efficient while idle or playing music meaning they consume very little average power overall and produce very little heat compared to "traditional" A/AB amps. Leave them OFF then turn them ON as needed, or just leave them ON 24/7 - doesn't matter as they are always ready to sound their best.
- - - - - - - - - -
* AC power electricity cost example:
Pass Labs XA100.8 monoblocks are "The middle sibling of the XA.8 series, the XA100.8's realize a muscular yet highly refined sonic profile."
Per Pass Labs the power consumption at idle is 500-Watts for each monoblock (1-kW for the pair). Assume a modest average of 20-cents per kWh of electricity in the US for 2024 (but as much as double that in parts of CA and Hawaii).
What is the cost of leaving these monoblocks powered ON 24/7 so they are always 'warmed-up' to sound their best?
1-kW X 0.20 dollars per kWh X 24 hours X 365 days = $1,752 per year (or $146 per month).
The Average Energy Prices in the USA
Edits: 06/29/24 06/29/24 06/29/24 06/30/24 07/01/24 07/01/24
My problem, and as Jeffreybehr has noted even with GaN Class D Atmaspheres, the sonics are NOT up to the level of the best "traditional" technology.
Nothing I have heard recently changes this perception.
see my prior post.
I mean for any kind of speaker...not just electrostats. So, you want to protest about that, I get it, you now promote a GaN based Class D amp. My experience, and why I only use single ended, Class A amplification, is that nothing sounds more realistic overall...not even OTL, which would be my second choice for amp type followed by Class A Triode push/pull (the new Thrax Spartacus 300 all 300B amp is an intriguing product).
When I play SETs I'm too aware of how they don't get the bass right, or for that matter the mids, highs and soundstage. Not saying they don't sound nice- they do! But if you know how the recording is actually supposed to sound then they just aren't as involving since you're always aware of how they fall short.
My speakers are easily driven by SETs being 16 Ohms and 98 dB. So its not an interface thing. They just don't bring home the bacon. Of course if you don't know how the recordings are supposed to sound they are fun, although I've never heard one that can play bass properly.
I don't think any SET can play bass properly. With a gapped transformer (or plate choke) there is never enough inductance to play bass properly (let alone damping). The load line turns into an eclipse in the presents of low bass. The lower portion of that eclipse is not where you want to operate a tube.I save my SET for mids and highs.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 07/06/24
The more you can avoid pushing the amp the better.
Yeah, they sound so good he can't listen to them because they produce so much heat. A live performance would be even better but I can't go everyday to enjoy it.
Some recent class D amps sound really nice. But not as nice as a class A.
"Some recent class D amps sound really nice. But not as nice as a class A."
Many audiophiles embrace familiarity and defend broad generalizations that they were taught over the ages. They often hear what they want to hear.
I have owned a couple Class A amps (Pass Labs) that don't sound as good as at least two recent Class D designs in my system.
Different people has different ears. Pass Labs amps are nice.
Yes, "different people have different ears", as you say. As such, broad generalizations about Class A being the best do not apply.Yes, Pass Labs is very nice. I owned two of their Class A amps but in my system I preferred their Class AB amps (I owned 3 of them over the years).
But today, I am extremely pleased with my Class D choices and will take them over the Pass Labs of my past. There's another inmate here who went the same direction by replacing his Pass Labs X150.8 with Class D.
Keeping an open mind (and clean ears!) is key.
Edits: 07/01/24
I am personally using a class D amp in one of my system because I think it is a good value and a strong driving capability.
By any chance, do you have a PASS Labs class A amp want to sell?
No, I haven't owned Pass Labs amps in many years. They ARE very nice amps but I prefer the advantages of Class D in my current setup.
I wouldn't mind trying a newer Pass Labs preamp sometime. I once owned the X2.5 and XP-10. Both were nice sounding preamps but I couldn't stand the old Pass remotes from the X2.5 era. Pass corrected their ergonomic blunder with their newer generation preamps and remotes.
One thing to check out a class D (or any amp) is that they have a good control when signal is near zero.
" One thing to check out a class D (or any amp) is that they have a good control when signal is near zero."
Not sure what you mean by "good control" when signal is near zero.
If you're talking about no noise or hiss, my Class D amp is dead quiet.
On the other hand, my early Class D PS Audio HCA-2 from 20+ years go did have a slight amount of hiss. It was enough to be annoying. These amps were initially shipped with very high gain (something like 30dB). PS Audio later reduced the gain a few dB which corrected the issue for most people.
That was a horrible sounding amp. I had one that I took on trade and it sounded like garbage.
a "good control" means grasp the speakers firmly and do not let them run freely.
It is not about the noise.
This is a very basic concept in amp design.
And you hear those problems at lower volume levels. Any competent design won't have this issue though.
But when you consider SQ/$$, some class D amps are really winner.
nt
In my B&W 801 system, I have 3 amps. It happens 2 of them were rated as class A equipment by Stereophile. One tube and one solid state. Both of them can work either in class A or class A/B by flipping a switch on the fly when music is playing.
I have always loved the 801s, never differentiating between the .x releases. With valves up top and sand down low I bet they sound excellent.
I found and installed a pair of OS Mullard 'U7s, and the entire system sounds quite good*. Still not using the subwoofers.
I believe the '1200s** will be in the system for a while, maybe even all refrigeration season.
.
* Always remember that I am NOT a quick-hearing GEA, I'm a slow-hearing music lover.
** My '1200s have new coupling caps (MultiCap RTXs bypassed with SoniCap Platinum 0.047s), CARDAS rhodium binding posts, and largish sheets of Dynamat on their bottoms and inside-bottoms of their top covers.. Being an incorrigible tweakist, I keep fantasizing about (1) adding some bypass caps to their output powersupplies and (2) replacing whatever decoupling/bypass cap(s) in the frontend powersupplies.. Probably I'll never get around to any of that, as my current life goal is to SELL all my surplus hobby stuff!
Nice thing about the M12100s is you get some 'tube magic' from the small input tubes and highly efficient and excellent sounding Class D on the output side. Sure, the tubes draw a little bit of power and produce some heat but not much. They're just tiny signal tubes.
Regardless of technology I would love to get your opinion sometime of the large Pass Labs monoblocks vs your M1200 Class D amps. How do they compare on sonics?
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