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In Reply to: No, this is not the Grado sound... posted by Bung on February 11, 2005 at 00:08:33:
Hi,Thanks for your reply. Do you mean the tracking force is too light? I did the tracking force by sight as three quarter turns of a rega counter weight after balance. I wondered if this was the same formula for a heavy cartridge like the grado.
The arm is stock goldging gr1 which seemed to produce a very low tracking angle in the rega cart, which was installed by dealer and sounded ok, and a VERY slighly high angle in the grado.
Thanks
Follow Ups:
You really should get a tracking force gauge. Shure makes a serviceable one for less than $25. I have the same arm in my NAD 533 and you can only roughly guestimate VTF. I use the My Weigh Axe digital gauge (I know . . . funky name, but if you see one you see why). It runs less than $50. The Grado should be set at the high end of the recommended range.Henry
Necessity is a mother . . .
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The infamous Grado "dance" is caused by a tonearm and cartridge mis-match. Basically the resonance frequency and mass of the tonearm are in the wrong range for the Grado's cantilever's suspension compliance. You can mitigate the problem through playing with VTF, anti-skate, and even VTA; but ultimately the best solution is to move on and either use a different arm or cartridge. Grado's do sound "dark" when this mismatch is present. There is no real remedy that would do the Grado any justice.Good luck,
Ray
The Grado is a fine match for the Rega arms and will work perfectly well without any "dancing".
-Bill
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I had a Grado platinum on a planar 3 once and on the 1st track
the whole arm cartridge body could easily be seen to wiggle and
giggle ferociously.It did the famed Grado Dance.As it got into
the second or 3rd track it would then settle down.
You may have had an issue with the platform or the Lp. I have set-up LOTS of Grados, of all types, and never seen that on any Rega table. One off-hand experience points to nothing other than circumstances.
Sorry,
Bill
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If my case was isolated I would agree.But the fact is this condition
has happened to so many people they have a nickname for the problem.
"The Grado Dance".Many people have heard the term and feel it is
caused by a bad compliance match.The Grados also hum on Regas at the
end of the record.Sometimes annoyingly so.What did you mean by
platform problem? I have never heard that term before.Did you mean
what the table was sitting on?
what the table was sitting on. I have to disagree here on the marriage of the two however as I don't have any problem ever with Grado/Rega being a bad mate. They are great matches as far as mass/compliance goes and sound very nice together. The only thing that dances are the listeners! Also the only issue concerning the Grado that anyone has even been curious about here has been a very slight hum at the end of an Lp with a near silent passage on some classical Lps. On any other Lp, it is not even an issue as the carts sound great and people actually prefer it to others even with the hum as it is so low that they find it to be laughable once they hear it demonstarted for them. In fact the exact match that you had, well a P3 and a Platinum, was so well received by one fellow here that his co-worker came in a few weeks later and bought the exact same set-up as he was so impressed after hearing his buddy's rig. I just can't agree with hearsay when I have tons of actual physical evidence, sorry. There can be other explanations and perhaps you are confusing an older S-shaped arm with an older Grado cartridge or another table, but no current Rega arm will cause a Grado to "dance".
-Bill
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As far as my experience goes, the one thing that makes Grados sound "dark", "dance", and become real nuisances is when there is a poor arm/cartidge marriage.
A problematic resonance can be found with any cartridge/arm mis-match. The Grado "dance" got it's name as the resonance is visible due to the rather high compliance of the cartridge when mated to an arm that is susceptible and too high of mass. This was more of a problem with their older cartridges and has been brought more to a standard for the more popular low-to-medium mass arms today. It is a fairly bulky unit though and when fitted to a Rega arm, which is considered a medium mass arm but perhaps is a little on the light side, the Grado does not cause the arm to resonate. In fact, Rega arms are exceptionally immune to resonance due to their unique design which makes them a favorite (the favorite if you want to do the math) among audiophiles worldwide.
The Grado cartridges have a smoother sound due to their design and manufacturing. You can read about their "OTL" cantilever design and their "Flux-Bridger" magnetic generator systems on their website. This is not hype like what you might find at a cable makers site, but physical differences from other designs with the two basic concepts being dampening and low mass (not necessarily in that order), but for the "why the dark sound?", then that would be it.
-Bill
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Would you say the platinum is an older design that had this problem?
As far as I know that cart is still current and I had that problem.
I never found the sound bad though.It just didn't appear to track
well.
Duane
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I didn't or at least did not intend to. I mean to say that it is possible that an older model Grado had a mis-match issue (from the tales of others). It is also possible that the original Rega "Planet" table or Planar 2, using the old S-shaped arm had the same issue with Grados. Current Grados and current Regas work great. like I said, I've tried them all and NEVER had any trouble with any "dancing". I have installed the Grados on Rega arms on other brands of tables also with excellent results. Only the drunks and silly girls dance here...
-Bill
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