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In Reply to: wonderful sound of vinyl posted by red carerra on June 07, 2004 at 12:54:57:
I suppose the digital (CD)junkies would say that you need to "upgrade" your player or transport or my favorite is: "you must have a tin ear." Or maybe get that $5000 outboard DAC and $3000 line conditioner. I say that vinyl was and still is the most revealing and accurate source of music there is to date. Yea, lots of faults on paper but in reality not as many as CD or SACD I guess. Once something is recorded via digital it's true sound is lost forever! What a shame. Think of all the performances that were done with digital only. Does your breathing change when you listen to CD's? Can you listen to an entire CD at one sitting like you can with an LP? Do you feel nervous or restless when listening to CD's? Does your foot tap to the music on CD's? Do you feel like your actually at the musical performance on the CD? If you like LP's then you must be experiencing one or more of the above but maybe you don't realize it all yet. No flames please. Just my opinion/answer to this posters question.
Follow Ups:
You hit it on the button. CD's just seem a little flat, truncated, just don't have as much life, soul as the LP's. I enjoy listening to CD's too on my system and appreciate what they do well. But there just seems to be something about the LP's and the better my system get's, it just seems to bring out that something all the more. Really involving sound.
The problem is the optical disc drives. Something about the way the TOC is being read at the beginning of each track will cause the disc transport to go unstable and churns out your 1's and 0's at the wrong timing. To solve this problem you always have to open/close disc tray to cache the ROM memory, select the desired track from stop position directly using the numerical keys, play and then skip back to the beginning of that track after exactly 12 seconds. That will keep the sound consistently grainless until the next track starts. All optical disc drives from $100 CD walkman to $40K CD players are susceptible to this problem, except maybe the Meitner Combo which uses re-clocking techniques to get around it. The soon to launch, humble little AIWA mini system using USB protocols may have also solve this problem unwittingly.
Never heard that before. Interesting though. It's a lot of work to play an entire CD that way isn't it? But really, think about it. With digital your not listening to a real recorded auditory happening like you are with analog. Even with analog the recording engineer alters the recording and may screw it up using their sonic taste or monitors and they may use an IC ridden console, but it's still real recorded sound that hasn't been screwed over twice like digital.
I have 108 CD's and over 5000 LP's. My preference was verified over 15 years ago when I started buying CD's. My CD player is a tube output job that was $1500 back then so I wasn't listening to CD's on a Circuit City special. I have a few special CD's that sound good but they aren't listening music. More like demo stuff. I've had several new or newer CD players and a transport with outboard DAC but the old CD player sounded as good or better so I ended my CD experience.
Here's the test in case you are interested to know:Play a CD, any CD, but preferrably a dense mix with ample ambience recorded. Any of these CD titles listed here would be ideal for the test:
Jennifer Warnes - Famous Blue Raincoat, track 3 and 7
CCR - Cosmo Factory, track 5,6,7,9
Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms, track 4
Dire Straits - On Every Street, track 9
Eagles - Hell Freezes Over, track 10Start by playing the selected CD. Use a preceeding track first, and not the ones listed here. Let it play through to the desired track, or if you are impatient, after 30 seconds, use the skip forward key to advanced to the desired listed here. You may then play this track to its entirety or just for 2 minutes. Take note of the sound, its timbre reproduction, the scale of the presentation, the transparency. Stop play.
At this point, if you have a mute button on your pre-amp, use it to mute the output.
Next open and close disc tray to cache the ROM. Now select the test track using the numerical key. If it is the track 4 of Dire Straits Brothers in Arms, press number 4 on your remote control. Do not use any of the skip keys.
Watch the counter on your CD player tick. At the 12th seconds point, hit the skip back key to repeat the track. Do not use the numerical keys.
Unmute the pre-amp. Compare the sound you hear against the sound you heard before.
If you hear a change. Congratulate yourself.
Your system pass the test.
How you select the track on a CD affects the reproduction sound quality. The problem happens at the beginning of every track on an optical disc. At this point I can only speculate that this is a operating software problem related to the TOC reading. You name it, every digital player and transport I have tried has this problem - Accuphase, Audio Mecca, Bow, Burmester, Forsell, CEC, Gamut, Naim, Sony, Marantz, Musical Fidelity, Philips, Pioneer, .... The reason why a dense mix is preferred for this test is because, jitter, induced by this problem tend to reduce the player's ability to separate out all the different elements in the mix, fusing fundamental notes and their subsequent reverbs and harmonics. This is what causes the "harshness" that is often attributed to all thing digital.
See my previous post about this issue:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=hirez&n=134771&highlight=Downside&session=
So you think this justify that LP is better? Not so. If anything, LP is even worse. With digital you can much more easily overcome this problem with your hand-held remote (if you got a open/close button that is) without ever lifting your butt from your comfy sofa. The problem with LP playback (note: I say LP playback) is that needle/groove interaction that is at the heart of its very information retrival process, needs to be overcome physically.
We got the humble little Aiwa coming in a few months time....
.. vinyl continues to outclass any digital format "in my System".I have worked very hard to get my system to sound as good as possible with ALL sources and enjoy music on all sources, but vinyl clearly presents music the way I hear it live more so than any my digital sources.
May be my system, but it is the same with any system I have listened to that has good front ends utilizing digital and analog.
While I spend more time listening to SACDs these days - vinyl sounds better.
and still you find that LP playback is better?
.. in general Lp playback presents a three dimensional quality to the performance that no digital can duplicate. There is a liquidity that digital just cannot capture.Just replaced the Navcom platform under my SCD-1 with a Neuance and it has done wonders. Still resting on three Aurios Pros. Much closer to vinyl, but in my system not nearly as realistic.
Believe me my system is very good with digital - just better with vinyl.
Let's get this fact settle first, then we'll discuss other issues.Do you hear a difference selecting a track directly from stop mode and then repeat 12-secs after play has commenced as compared to play continuously from preceeding track? How would you describe the sonic differences?
You didn't specify whether the Aurios were underneath the Neuance platform or underneath the SCD-1 chassis directly. That could mean a world of difference as well.
The SCD-1 rests upon the Neuance shelf which in turn rests on the Aurios Pros, my system listed under JCS with pics.I have tried your 12 second test a long time ago following your comments and could detect no discernable sonic difference.
While my analog frontend lists for more than three times the cost of the SCD-1, into preamp, I do not believe that is why vinyl sounds more realistic. This opinion is shared by many, many who happen to be in the industry. Not that that matters a wit.
Actually looking at your system I am surprised at your opinion on the sonic merits of digital versus versus analog. All I can share is what I hear on my system and others that I have listened to, many good ones and others not so, and in all cases vinyl always sounded more realistic.
I got into SACD with the hope it would better vinyl, or anything else for that matter, to me it beats Red Book, the amount depending on many variables.
My system allows me to enjoy all formats and sounds quite fantastic. Vinyl happens to be the most fantastic.
< < I have tried your 12 second test a long time ago following your comments and could detect no discernable sonic difference. > >See here's the whole issue. In my previous post on this issue, I have made it quite clear that the SCD-1 did not sound better than a $200 turntable (which happened to be a Sony turntable connected to a Tom Evans Micro Groove phonostage), if no intervention is applied to the playback process. There is no track-to-track consistency, and the SCD-1 is as harsh as everyone said it could be. But once the track-access methodology I mentioned was used, the resultant sound from the SCD-1 can be exhilarating, music would flow with the fluidity that far exceeds what I have experienced on vinyl (in many systems). There's also this "continousness" to the way the rhythmn section flows, even more so than the way analog playback on vinyl does. So since you can't detect this track-access problem on your SCD-1, it means that something in your system is masking the sonic changes. You can't begin to understand why I say SACD played on the SCD-1 can better LP playback. You can't explain shades of colours to a blind person, can you?
< < The SCD-1 rests upon the Neuance shelf which in turn rests on the Aurios Pros, my system listed under JCS with pics. > >
I have no experience with the Neuance shelf, but I have tried others like the Black Diamond Racing shelves which adds artificial details, and the Symposium platforms which I find can drain musical life away from the SCD-1. Although I have 3 of these Symposium shelves, I don't allow them to rest directly underneath the player. Instead I use a combination of 3 different materials (wood, glass, symposium platform) to neutralise each of their own sonic signatures. These 3 different material platforms rest on top of a set of Symposium rollerblocks.
I have to say, in my system, there are no PLCs, no expensive powercords, and every component are powered with Sony supplied powercords plugged direct to the wall.... Reading my system's page you would have also realised that I have also spent quite a tidy sum on PLCs and powercords, but I have chosen to go back to basics, for a few reasons - In comparison with the Sony stock powercords, the more expensive aftermarket powercords had robbed some air, dimension and openness from the music. All these brands of PCs altered the instrument/voices' timre to varying degress, which makes the system differs from neutrality. So the important thing here as always is, while most changes sound refreshing, not all may be more truthful. Some improvements may have side effects. We should be aware of the adverse side effects that come with such products.
First off I take exception to the implicit reference to being blind regarding sound. I attend many live concerts per year and have live music as my reference. I can assure you that my SCD-1 sounds good enough that I have yet to be tempted to go for any internal mod, although I may some day.Knowing you would bring up your 12 second test again I did try it again this am on a Red Book Cd that I often use as a reference. This time I did actually hear a difference. Things appeared to snap into place, more in focus, and yes there was a lessening of glare that to the music that I never heard on a Cd.
For that I am grateful, but it still cannot provide the three dimensional body and bloom that I get with vinyl and that I hear fron real instruments in a live venue.
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