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I have a simple question (although the answer may not be so simple). How much better sounding are modern high end amplifiers than the best vintage receivers?
a. Way better
b. A lot better
c. Slightly better
d. Barely noticable difference if you strain your ears for hours
e. IndistinguishableAssume both are operating within their power limits and driving farily easy loads.
Follow Ups:
I thought my McIntosh C33/MC2255 was as good as I could ever get in my main den system - for 21 years. And this year I replaced them with the McIntosh C46/MC402 and I am stunned at how much better it is.Width, depth, detail, everything. I can't really describe how much better it is. I duuno what those folks did....but I like it!
I use both modern and vintage tube gear. To my ears the new is a little more detailed and slightly edges out the vintage in sound quality. My vintage gear does have a certain tone that I really enjoy. Some of my vintage does sound better than certain new pieces I own. It's almost a draw. There isn't a single piece I own new or old that I can say is significanly better sounding than another piece. Mixing vintage and new produces a great sound. Note: all my vintage pieces have been restored and some of my new pieces I switched out some parts for higher quality parts.
I have a simple question (although the answer may not be so simple). How much better sounding are modern high end amplifiers than the best vintage receivers?
a. Way better
b. A lot better
c. Slightly better
d. Barely noticable difference if you strain your ears for hours
e. IndistinguishableFor solid-state, actually none of the above... My answer is merely different, but not necessarily better... (I've never experienced an amplifier comparison where the units compared were indistinguishable.) I personally think the proliferation of digital and RF devices in our environment has made it much more difficult to design decent-sounding solid-state amplifiers.
I do think the budget amplifiers have improved (I'll take a Samson Servo 260 over entry-level B&K...) but the expensive gear is awash.
And for tube gear?? This is the one part of audio where I think today's products trounce vintage products.
AFAIC, my (reference) system sounds FAR better than my vintage pieces, but hey....we're comparing apples to oranges.I can enjoy my vintage Nakamichi system one just as much.
It's all good!
Best,
otari :-)
My mother-in-law, after seeing the Levinson 33H amps in my listening room: "Those are the nicest electric room heaters I've ever seen".
I'll take a shot at this, having just gone through the process of making such a decision. I don't know if you'd qualify my recent stuff as "high end", but it's pretty good.I have had an NAD C350 integrated amp from 2001, an Adcom GTP-350/GFA-535 II tuner-preamp/power amp from about 1993, an Onkyo Integra TX-870 receiver (1989-90), a Kenwood KR-6050 receiver (1979-80), Pioneer SX-828 (1972), Pioneer SA-8100 (1973), Sherwood S-7200 (1972), H-K 730 (1974?), Technics SA-5360 (1976) and a Marantz 2270 (1973) and tried them all with my JBL L-110's and Advents, and most with the KLH 17's.
The answer is: "it all depends". The Advent and JBL speakers are modded, and the KLH-17's were restored and had a 0.47 ohm resistor added in series. The KLH-17's sounded best with the Adcom pair by a large margin. The Advents (stock or modded) sound best with the Onkyo receiver and stock ones are pretty good (but different) with the SX-828. The JBL's were hands down best with the NAD followed by the Adcom and Onkyo, but the mid and tweeter L-pads needed to be reset slightly for best sound with each. The later Kenwood KR-6050 sounded more like the NAD than did any of the other receivers but lacked the NAD's sense of bass power (see below).
Bottom line is that it's all about matching, and the ranking of various speaker/amp pairings will depend on the room, the speaker, the speaker settings (if there are any), and the listener's tastes.
I also found a number of problems with most of these amps with tone controls that were not at their flattest settings at 12 o'clock, balance controls that did not give equal output when centered, and mismatched left channel/right channel tone controls. The NAD was perfect right out of the box, the Pioneers were both very close, and the Kenwood KR-6050 was decent. Everything else needed some work or recalibration. Once that was done, things could be compared on an apples to apples basis. If that's not done, it's a crap shoot.
In one respect, two of the amps stand apart from the others. The NAD C-350 and the Onkyo TX-870 have a much more powerful sounding bass than any of the others. It isn't simply frequency response or Damping Factor at work. On bass drums, for example, those two just produced more low bass output than the others.
If I had to make just one response, it would be that newer amps of better quality are somewhat better than the best vintage (1980 and earlier) receivers.
Some of the main differences between vintage, and I'm assuming a quality unit, and modern are basically few. The major difference is price point construction. In older units you tend to see higher quality parts, over speced parts, good solid beefy construction, "tunability" of a unit - eg balance pots, bias, etc...New gear does enjoy a tremendous gain in power supply designs, razor sharp specs, ultra low distortion, excellent cheap units can be had.
But again these are all general statements and DON'T apply to any actual piece or group of gear. And there are good modern pieces and crappy vintage stereos. The trick is finding the ones you like.
Try going down to the local sports bar and asking for a show of hands on how many prefer a good microbrewed beer to Coors or Bud? Then do the same in a combination micro-brewery/restaurant. Its a matter of taste.It would be interesting to also post this survey on the General, SET and Bottlehead forums (among others). There really is no right answer (well, maybe a politically correct one on each forum). After all, you are just asking for an opinion on a very focussed, topic-specific forum.
You might ask for identification of the amplification in the responders prime system AND what they think represents the best vintage receiver.
If you are truly wondering, pull your receiver and take it down to the local 'high end' shop or a friends who has a high end system (oops, can't admit to having a friend who has a high end system!?!). Tell them you are interested in new amplification and want to compare their stuff with your current amp/receiver.
Bob
Tadlo, perhaps vintage gears' greatest sonic virtue is a heavenly harmonic quality which, for whatever reason, can't be replicated by today's topologies! Have modded that Marantz MR-235's amp section to where its' direct-coupled lateral mosfets deliver a midrange clarity which this guitar afficiando finds addictive-n-enticing-n-hypnotic! That the bass-n-treble regions have a pleasant polyphonic presentation is an added aural benefit! Only other unit which came close to being as sonically satisfying to these jaded printer's ears was a Marantz 2226B(another lateral mosfet topology). Bold Eagle mentioned component synergy, & so it has been with this hipster's system. Have taken a Logical Systems 318 Silencer(hiss filter; constructed during 1980 World Series) & Carver TX1-11 Asymmetrical Charge Coupled F.M. Decoder(f.m. hiss filter, purchased in 1983) out of the stereo system loop over the last year, only to return them to their place of position. That Logical Systems 318 Silencer basically masks all them high frequency nasties above 1.5khz which permeates that electron signal flow. The original RCA jacks lost contact; so they were removed & replaced with direct-wired Ratio Shaq Monster Cable. As Todd Krieger pointed out, there'se a lot more r.f. interference than in years past, so that Carver TX1-11 is even more valuable than back-n-da-day. Relative locals like U.C. Davis' KDVS & Nevada City's KVMR are continually static laden & badly in need of this Carver unit's signal scrubbing. Joe Gorin's Symmetric Sound Systems' Pulse Swallower-1 not only provides vinyl clean-up, it adds R.I.A.A. equalization to digital playback as well(Bob Carver used phono eq in one of his cd players). Without those vintage ancilliary audio units, however, no amp provides an ultimately pleasing performance. Another aspect to consider, Tadlo, is whether you listen mostly to modern music(a great Be Bop DeLuxe song, b.t.w.)or vintage classics. Have noticed how different they sound on both KDVS/KVMR broadcasts(it's harder to differentiate sonic quality on commercial outlets above 92mhz, due to heavier use of compression)& cd playback. If you prefer modern fare, stay with modern ware! One area where auld combines with new for a truly euphonic flavour, however, is using modern speakers in those auld wooden cabinets. Bold Eagle might consider this heresy(of the non-Klipsch kind), but them cabinets sound a bit more organic when you remove that stuffing & let them cabs breathe-n-resonate!
in days long past we referred to kdvs as k-deviat - a good station still though you know my story i can rarely receive it - my long stored ess eclipse 500 series 2 heads in for repair next week - hope it's not terminal - will use it with my epi's (i think)
Best of luck in restoring your ESS Eclipse 500 Series II to their ess-teemed glory, pappy 1st! Here's an unabashed plug for Neal, of Neal's Speakers fame, who is a true reconing wizard. If ya come down da hill via Highway 80, he can be reached via Skip's Music. He usually picks up speakers needing reconing on Wednesdays. Take the Watt Avenue exit, turn south towards Auburn Blvd, then west for about a mile. Skips' tech shop is right near the entrance(left, actually). In the meantime, there are crueller fates than being enveloped via EPIs(;{)!!! ... KDVS streams their audio, & I think you'll dig Megan's "Cars-n-Chicks" show this evening from 8-10p.m. Lotsa garage-n-surf-n-psychedelia! From 10-11p.m., it's "KDVS' Top Ten". From 11p.m. to midnight, it's "Live From Studio A"! Shows are audio archived, via their schedules menu, for up to a week afterward!
i am sending the amp to mike zuccaro - he has access to a schematic - neal has re-coned speakers for me in the past - i purchased four original bozak woofers off e-bay - the four new (old) will go into the symphonies - the four i had originally in my symphonies need re-coning - won't be a bozak after that but still four very good but slightly different sounding woofers i can use on a winter project - here is a seventies quiz for you - if you answer correctly you frequented the same venues i did in the early to late seventies - sacramento's & davis' best and most popular band from 74- 79 was????
Thanx fer puttin' this hipster on da spot, pappy 1st! Will take the coward's way out 'n' say Steelwind, until Craig Chaquico got recruited into Jefferson Starship(;{)! Actually, I don't know if they were the most popular, but the Runners were technically the most impressive band around! Knew guitarist Henry Robinette through childhood bud Mel Nelson("We don't want no jazz hangin' 'round anymore; we don't want no jazz comin' in through that door")! Got to hang out inside their 22nd-n-H abode on several occasions! Still got a Runners' poster hangin' 'round da garage! Henry now teaches music @ American River College, when he isn't involved in Sactown's Jazz Project! B.T.W., a former friend used to have Tesla practice around da corner from his Fruitridge-area home!!!
steelwind was a good band for sure - lead singer diana harris' husband (bob) was our 'aquarian effort' counselor in high school - diana went on to do a one woman broadway revue type of thing
henry robinett was an old friend of mine when i booked music at melarkeys - saw what might have been the 'runners' first show with
skip moriarty from steelwind on rhythm guitar and flute at the original 'c street' saloon when it was actually on c street - burned down and was then moved to it's more familar location - my complaint about the 'runners' would be the same complaint i have against the more popular bourgeois tagg, another band that played often at melarkeys when i did the music booking - brent bourgeois and larry tagg came from dallas texas and had played in a band called uncle rainbow and would later form bourgeois tagg - both the runners and b.t. seemed to forget rock and roll's first goal was to be fun and then fun again - they were so busy trying to impress us with complicated works that the fun was often lost in the translation - the band i was referring to beat the runners at the kzap sponsored battle of the bands in davis in 1977 - to this day were henry to be asked about it he would shake his head and say ' how did we lose to these guys - the band was the 'skins' - fronted by david fraser on keyboards and bob regan on guitar with b.c cole on lead guitar and dale lyberger on bass - ed mann, the second of their drummers was first rate and much better than original member hal cole - regan is now a big time songwriter in nashville with a number of top ten hits to his credit -
How could I have fergot da Four Skins, pappy 1st? Yeah, both they & LaCasse seemed to be ever'where! Kinda like that Rootabaga Boogie Band(;{)!!!
have not seen larry gosch or bill horton (rbb) for years - at one time larry was a straight A student - a .500 hitter in high school baseball until, as he put it, discovered rock n roll - within a few short months his baseball career was done with, the bat replaced with a guitar - larry worked at skips music for a number of years and was in awe of henry robinett's guitar abilities - you mentioned tesla, remember their name before fame struck? -
Frank Hannon's Blues Explosion??? B.T.W. pappy 1st, just heard on Big Dave's Blues show that Little Milton passed away! Must be a heckuva party goin' on in that Blues Bar In the Sky!!!
nah, 'city kid' - i also grew up in the fruitridge area and at least one of tesla's crew went to the same same highschool as me though just a 'few' years after - little milton, never saw him but the blues is allright in my book - i did watch a good blues guitar face off between little charlie and duke robillard back in 83 - duke was with roomful of blues at the time and later with the fabulous thunderbirds after jimmy vaughan left - duke didn't know what hit em' -
nt
when comparing vintage vs late-model amps of any configuration - SS or tubes.* Restoration costs for older gear to bring it up to as-new standards
* Quality of components surrounding the amp/receiver regardless of ageIn general, most of the circuit topologies are well-known from an engineering standpoint. The rest of it is a matter of design tradeoffs and engineering to specific price points.
Cheers,
f. Barely noticably worse if you strain your ears for hours
g. Slightly worse
h. A lot worse
i. Way worseAny statistician would agree that a list of exclusively one-sided answers would invalidate the survey data. I look forward to the results.
I thought of those myself right after I hit the "post" button.
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