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24.20.36.12
There is a pair of "Amperex KT88 made in Germany" selling for over $120 on Ebay. It is pity there are people who fall for these scams...
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Follow Ups:
Why not call New Sensor to task for using the Svetlana, Tung Sol and Mullards names on their Russian tubes. Its a shame when we dont give people the benefit of the doubt and automatically accuse them of fraud.I would also say that if buyers want to avoid these types of issues or problems that they pony up and buy from knowledgable and reputable dealers. When you ask most buyers why they frequent ebay the answer is invariably that the tubes are cheaper. You can have Falstaff and have him thin!
I'm sure it was an honest mistake, like others have said, he has a good reputation and listed only the details as he saw them. He didnt say it was the super duper rare amperex limited edition series, just a simple observation of the tube. This guy might not be a tube nut like some of us...fretting over the lineage and details of plate structure etc etc etc..he's a guy who sells stuff, why should he care about all the mystery in it...thats for us to solve and bid accordingly. I have not been around tubes that long but have long ago seen these chinese tubes labeled as philips and other brands...they are really quite unmistakable with that not quite Tung Sol looking bottle. Shame on the bidders for not bothering to do a bit of research to find out what they may be, a simple search in the asylum would have given them all they needed.
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Having bought some tubes from this seller some years ago, before I found Jim, (Hi Jim) I remembered the sellers E-Bay name and did a search in the tubes forum and found a reply from Riatla. I also remember that he was accused of selling fake tubes a year or two ago and this is probably the reply to that. If the tubes on E-Bay aren't qenuine then I really think Rialta doesn't know. Maybe someone should have the courtesy to contact him to say there are questions about them?
- http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=tubes&n=13310&highlight=riatla&r=&session= (Open in New Window)
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I did contact the seller and asked him if the was aware that Amperex never made KT88s yadda, yadda, yadda, here is his answer:"Yes, a friend told me this and I can't believe out of 2000 viewers for 10 days you are the first one to notice or to mention it anyway.
I fully intend to let the winning bidder know the full story.
Funny the only question I had for 10 days is if I had a quad of them, and I do. Plus where I got them there are several more. Figures they are junk Right
Thanks for the info "
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I have hundreds of tubes. Philips made so many tubes from different locations that unless you have a fair amount of experience putting the Philips jigsaw puzzle together, you are going to make mistakes trying to identify a whole lot of their tubes. I've seen just about every combination of label and factory from the Philips stuff that I have no problem attributing this sort of thing as a simple mistake.The American brands are almost as bad when it comes to rebranding, but the BAV organization in Europe opened the floodgates at encouraging improper coding and labeling.
As I write this, I'm listening to an amp with a quad of Valvo Buggle Boys in it. I purchased them as Amperex Buggle Boys in Amperex boxes. However, on the tubes are a big fat D for Valvo in the code.
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I find they are often related to ignorance as opposed to being scams. This guy has good feedback, has a lot of items for sale, and has been on eBay since 1998. All good signs, yes?I have a feeling it's not knowing what he really has. Heck it's hard for me to tell what I have sometimes, and I deal with tubes all the time. This looks like an honest mistake to me. An email to inform him of the nature of the tubes might be in order.
Even mullard did that on their EL34s of the latter part and we all know Mitsubishi made them and these were with the crease in the top.They still said made in GT Britain.
My take is I wonder if the glass maybe was made in GT. Britain or being they were concluding production of tubes,they didnt worry much about country of manufacture or getting sued?
Then again sometimes it may just say Gt.Britain and not made in GT. Britain.
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1970s "country of origin" laws were lax to say the least. Less than 20% of the total manufacturing costs as related to the final retail sale price(often less; some countries accepted single digit figures!) were necessary for calling a Japanese (or whatever) tube "GT. Britain". Just labeling, doing QC, finishing the solder on the pins, boxing, packing etc etc was MORE than enough to say Great Britain. Also, Matsushita OWNED Mullard and hence had their foot in the door, so to speak, to have free reign on labeling mande in Britain. This was not new, and has actually gotten worse. Take a look at virtually any "American" car and you'll have your answer. Saturns vehicles and other GM, (Chevy Malibu in particular) have Chinese drivetrains, and MOSTLY outsourced parts. But they are made in America! Then you have the made in USA Hondas, etc... it cuts both ways...
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Say what? Matsushita didn't own Mullard. Philips owned Mullard. Matsushita wasn't owned by Philips either, despite rumors of that.Another internet myth is that Matsushita took the Mullard Blackburn tooling after they shut down making EL34's. Baloney. At some point, Matsushita contracted with Philips to get tooling that was the same that Mullard was using at Blackburn, but this was done while Mullard was making EL34's. Matsushita's did start being made in 1981 after Mullard shut down making EL34's. Matsu's go back to the 70's and into the 60's.
Matsushita has contractual agreements with Philips......but they didn't own them and vice versa.
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Of COURSE Mullard was Philips owned...for 50 years or so. I guess PERHAPS I am mistaken in thinking that they purchased Mullard ca. 1968, but I have read it, and heard it for 20 years now, mainly from old timers who wouldn't know the internet from a television.. so if untrue it must be the most widely believed myth in history. But--- this is a detail that I have no emotion invested in (i.e. I may be wrong, I may be right; I don't care...:0)Likely YOU are correct and for the correction I thank you.
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Typo, meant to say:"Matsushita's didn't start being made in 1981 when Mullard shut down making EL34's.
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Here Ya GO! While the 1954 date of when Matsushita began metalbase production is questionable, scroll down to the first picture of black base Matsushita EL34. Made in 1961. Interesting history of a mythical tube!
- http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://radiomann.hp.infoseek.co.jp/HomePageVT/Audio_EU_Pentode.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=10&ct=result&prev=/search?q=Japan+6CA7&start=30&hl=en&lr=&sa=N (Open in New Window)
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I'm not sure what you are saying here, but I have Matsushita EL34s dating back to the 1960s. They even made metal base EL34s under license. THIS IS FACT; a bit of research should clear this up for you. Just google "Japanese EL34" and "Japanese 6CA7" and you will find a detailed history of Matsushita, Toshiba, and Hitachi; this will clarify this issue greatly for you. While I may not care/know for sure if Matsushita ever owned owned Mullard, because I don't have hard evidence, this kind of misinformation about 1981 dates etc. is starting ANOTHER myth and needs correction.
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Easy Tiger. LOL. Press the Rewind button and hit Play again. This time listen to what I actually said (including the typo correction) rather than what you wanted me to say.
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nt
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Further, Matsushita OWNED Mullard at the time so the notion of Matsushita "worrying about being sued" is a non-issue/impossibility. Who would sue? Matsushita more than met the country of origin laws by having the aforementioned "finishing" tasks done in the UK so Britain's version of the FTC couldn't sue.. and Parent companies don't really get sued by their "children" too often :0)
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Just a guess - a rebrander cannot be sued if he smartly changes a letter in the name - e.g. SiemAns or WestERN Germany (GDR is also located in the West).
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We all know KT88s were never made by Amperex or in Germany. This seller has to know these are crappy chinese tubes. I bought my share of those tubes which lasted about a month before they inmolated themselves, sometimes taking a transformer in the worst case scenario or several resitors in the best case.
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I'm sorry, but how can you be so sure that the seller knows that? If "everyone" knew that, would people have bid so much for them?We don't "all know". Obviously there was a point where you didn't know - either that or you did know and still went ahead and bought them.
In fact, you know what? Screw this whole thing. There is clearly no place here for a reasonable approach anymore. It's not conceivable to you that it could be an honest mistake? I hate to have to break the news to you, but not every seller is out to screw every buyer.
This is a "knowledgeable" seller, he has sold thousands of items and it seems he specializes in tubes, so I do believe he has to know.When I say "we all know" I mean those of us who have been in this hobby for many years which is mainly what the asylum members are.
When the chinese KT88's came out in the late 80's nobody knew how good or bad they would be. So we bought them and I can say I liked their sound then. The problem was they were poorly made and self destroyed quickly. These are obviously of that era and a person who specializes in tubes and tube related items has to know at first glance these are chinese tubes.
I don't believe every seller is there to screw every buyer, I have dealt with many honest people in the business. You have a good reputation for honesty so I don't see why you get so angry.
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"You have a good reputation for honesty so I don't see why you get so angry."Thank you for the kind words, but the reason it bothers me so much is that it really could be an honest mistake. It's happened before on eBay and it'll happen again. I've made similar mistakes on my own site (I don't sell on eBay) on occasion despite my knowledge of tubes and my best efforts to avoid misidentification. I just hate to think that it could be me or one of the other good tube guys here that make a mistake - an honest, well-intentioned mistake - and it is immediately assumed we were trying to screw somebody. I can tell you I've NEVER tried to screw somebody - but I've made plenty of mistakes!
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I do know this seller from having bought tubes from him(or her ) several years ago.The tubes were sold as Mullard Orange Globe 6dj8 made in Great Britain.They were neither Mullard nor Amperex but did have the standard (Mullard ) Made in Great Britain that you find on so many relabeled tubes sold here in the US during the 50's-60's.The date code on them had a faint V2 so I took them to be from India(?) and honestly labled as sold.I do own both Mullard and Amperex Orange Globe tubes so I am certain the labels are real and the tubes do resemble both tubes mentioned. I emailed the seller. He apologized, and offered to buy the tubes back.
It was an honest mistake and I felt no need to ask for a refund.The mark of an honorable man is to acknowledge a mistake and try to correct it.I need say no more.
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Forgive my naive question, Jim, but what is it that the seller should be informed of? I see nothing but a straightforward description of the tubes for sale. The bidders are voluntary in their price run-up, if that's what it should be called.Like you, I have no interest in the matter relative to the parties involved, I'm still learning about tubes and about the boundless mysteries of Ebay.
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A number of tubes from various places around the globe have been labeled Amperex. If the buyer is expecting tubes made in an Amperex plant he won't receive them. Those tubes look Chinese to me.BTW, that's a darn good question! Relabeling and rebranding of tubes makes it very difficult at times to know whjat you're buying unless you have some experience. For instance, with very few exceptions if you see a tube that says "Made In England", it likely isn't. However, "Made in Great Britain" is often correct. Until you know what to look for besides the name you can easily be fooled. And even after lots of years into the tube thing, I still have trouble sometimes!
Before anyone asks, I know of no single place to find all the info regarding mis/relabeling. There's bits and pieces everywhere.
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...and "made in Gt.Britain", like NOS xf2-coded Amperex EL-34 supposedly made by Mullard?
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What are you asking here? Are you asking a question, or are you taking a shot at me?
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No, Jim, it's not a shot. I should have mentioned that it was off-topic. I purchased a quad of such tubes from a seller 4 years ago (it was my first purchase of NOS tubes) and I was wondering then if those tubes with "Made in Gt.Britain" legend were were deal. I believe they are. What can you say in general?
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Look at the production codes and see where the tube was made - that's about the only way I know for sure. xf2 is the series, but the other numbers can also tell you where it was made. For instance, a B in the 2nd line indicates the tube was from the Mullard Blackburn plantThere's a list of Philips factory codes on Triode's site, and there may be others around. Time for some Googling! Or if you post the code here sometimes someone can tell you what's up.
Sorry about the "shot" deal, it's just that lately I feel like a punching bag every time I post here and it's really getting tiresome.
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I see.
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