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"Get a life!"These recent threads seem to support some of the negative stereotypes of audiophile behavior. Does being King of the audiophiles mean everything now? Is being right and having the last word make you more happy than sitting down in front of the speakers? It reminds me of when a group of male dogs get together and they all start sniffing each other's butts. Who is going to be the dominant dog here?.
Dan
I nominate M.B.A. as King. And a benevolent ruler he would be. And he never bothers with threads like this one.
Astounding how you miss the point - which really isn't about audio at all. Nor is it about who has the most (or biggest) toys. Try again...and read slowly this time.
it is not about audio at all. Maybe you should read it all again too. I bet you would be surpised to find that you might have handled things differently if you could do it again. If not, then you deserve all the respect and credibility these latest posts have inspired.Dan
now I'm gonna toos and turn all night worrying about what you think of me. Sorry to soil your tidy (and dull) little neighborhood.
the first issue dealt with duplicity and misrepresentation. The second with a moderator who feels it's prefectly fine to land on anyone with whom he disagrres or dislikes and belittle them and call them names, and then performs surgical stikes when someone else gets their dander up. I find both highly offensive.What's going to be the third issue is the group of folks who sit on the sideline until the dust is settled and then weigh in with all their "holier than thou" church deacon attitudes. "This was such a nice place before THOSE RUFFIANS moved in."
Makes me want to chuck an old, rusted-out washing machine out in the yard here at TA or put a '66 Falcon up on blocks in the TA driveway. I may get my dander up now and again, but you know what, at least it reminds me I'm alive. Sheesh.
Ok, everyone one can go back to benne wafers and tea now. Let's see the bid was three no-trump.... My, dear, that such a precious hat you're wearing...
Phil, I do see your point, but I was just surprised to see this thing getting blown out of proportion (IMHO). I don't have any illusions about this being an audio nirvana or you or anyone else being the audio messiah, but some of these threads didn't have to continue to the point of obesession like they did. There comes a time when you have to let things go and move on to the next topic, and I think for me that this is probably the time to do that.Dan
> > > or put a '66 Falcon up on blocks in the TA driveway.LOL! But only if it has ball tassles hanging from the headliner and olive green shag carpet covering the dash. Accuracy is important in junk as well as audio. :)
Bill C
Actually I have been bothered for some time by the postings of both Phil Seig and Bryan F.
I was beginning to think that Bryan F was setting himself up to be the resident expert on all things SET and offering dogma and decisions based on limited experiance.
I thought Phil Seig was becoming elitest and an "audio snob". Taking the attitude of "3 watts in your system, but only one watt in mine because I am more discriminating. Why, I have speakers that you can audition at only one place in the world. I am super-audiophile!"
But, I ulitmately refuse to beleive that about my fellow audiophiles. I beleive that Bryan F. might be blessed with youthful exuerbance(sp?)and fervor bodering on an almost religous search for the holy grail. We need these young audiophiles, even if they do "go over the top" once in awhile. They shouldn't be condemed for it.
We need the Phil Seig's of the audio world, too. Boy do we need them! I beleive that he too is only in search of the "holy grail". We need his experiance to save some of the rest of us from going down the same gawddamn dead-end roads that he has already been down.
I went to my wife's cousin's place for Thanksgiving. Everybody there "oo'd and ahh'd" over his home theatre set-up. Five speakers, big ass bass--you know what I mean. All I could think of was "What would they think if they came to my house and saw the firebottles, turntables and only two little speakers." Don't you know that the rest of the world thinks we are all a little odd. And I do mean odd. ODD! Try telling somebody about vacuum tubes and watch the way they look at you. Hell, they don't even know what tubes are!
I am tired of the bickering.
All I ever wanted to do was just listen to a few records. And now this.
Well, Broman hungry now. Broman wanna samich.
Broman . . .Try this . . .
Good quality ham, a little anchovie, lettuce and tomato and homemade garlic mayo. . . all on a split, toasted pan rustica . . .
First, whether you choose to excoriate me or praise me, the name is "Sieg". ;-)Elitist? Snob? Well, I guess you could say that from a certain perspective. After all, at my last office I was called the "Coffee Snob" because I would bring a carafe of freshly ground and brewed coffee each day rather than drink the brown acid that cooked on those burners all day long. Funny thing is, we started grinding our own beans daily in 1977, long before Starbucks and the coffee fad.
So maybe my choice of speakers is elitist, too, because they are made by a craftsman who refuses to turn the business into a chain operation. But anyone who wishes to take the trouble can do what I did. In fact, Frank P, georgeh and Mike who post here have already done so.
1W vs 3W? It's not a contest. There are so many little known triodes that can make great amps with the right speakers and it's really fun to experiment. Sort of like a wine tasting. Same grape, but all those different flavors. The poineering wine importer Kermit Lynch, when asked what was the greatest wine in the world, responded, "For what?". just a one wine is faboulous sitting on your deck on a warm spring afternoon while reflecting on the resuurected beauty around you, another is great on a cold winter's night with a hearty cassoulet.
So too with the triodes. One may be tremendous with the female voice; another in giving the rhythm and slam of a Mighty Sam McClain, a third with Heifitz' violin.
Super-audiophile? I loathe the term audiophile and consider it a perjorative. I am a hi-fi nut and music lover. I was an audiophile at one time. Actually, two times. I was such a slow learner I had to make the same mistakes twice to learn. So that makes me a super dense audiophile reformed.
With respect to the "bickering". All who post here are cursed with being human. Which means that all of us will at one time or another react heatedly to what someone else says or does. It's a matter of perception, and on that score we all differ. My view is that a good "dust-up" is healthy and that it clears the air. Bryan and I at least know what the other thinks now. Whether that will change either of our positions is debatable. But knowing is far better than ignorance.
I have no bad feelings at all. I don't like the personal attacks on my private life as I thought they were un-called for however.The only one that I have bad feelings towards is Rich who made it all personal and just flamed away. Offering no view point of his own. Yes, I questioned his post. As I felt differently. Then I get flamed for doing so by him. Later he posts that he compared his 805's to the Moth and FI mono's. Yet, he can't and won't answer a single question about them. As a matter a fact all he did was flame me in a childish fashion. To get to the point I don't like people who set a standard to which they don't meet. Not to mention he was more interested in personal attack rather then talking about audio.
I appreciate you questioning me. As you should. If you have any questions ask on a post to post basis. I'll be glad to answer any questions that I can.
Yes, I'm searching for the holy grail. However my holy grail. My journey while not measured in decades has been a long and expensive one.
> > > 1W vs 3W? It's not a contest. There are so many little known triodes that can make great amps with the right speakers and it's really fun to experiment. < < <
Your right on this one. As a matter a fact I always wonder if I auditioned say 3 flea powered amplifiers on a single pair of speakers and chose one as the best if my decision would change if I changed to a different set of speakers. Now I'm not talking sounding good but better then the first. Now the hard part is getting 3 flea powered amplifiers in front of me and a handful of high sensitivity speakers at the same time.
However things only get complex from here. As I also believe that one needs to head in a certain direction. For instance my WATT/P's and Sonic F gear were very very analytical/razor sharp. Detailed to the max......also unforgiving and fatiguing. Where as my S2A3 manages to be very resolved, but is also warm and smooth. Add a little liquidity depending on output tubes and you have musicality to my ear.
My preference is to that of the S2A3. As it is able to convey emotion and be analytical at the same time. Where one needs to be is up to them. However it is a hard job sorting through the abyss of equipment and at the same time trying to understand where one wants/wishes to be. Thus I have bought and sold much equiptment.
For instance when I purchased the WATT/P's I figured hell this is all I can afford so they are going to offer the best sound period. Upon listening and trying to match components I realized what I didn't like about the WATT/P's. That being that all I was trying to do with cables, preamps, and amps was to tame the speakers themselves. As they had many traits that I didn't like.
When the Merlins entered my system I really realized this. As the VSM SE is able to sound exactly to what you have hooked up to them. If the amp is bright the VSM will sound bright (though in a smooth way as the Esotar is implemented very well) Where as if I hooked up a bright amp to the WATT/P's they became shrill and ear piercing. This is what really set the two speakers apart. That being that the Merlins will sound like the associated equiptment. While the WATT/P's will need to be tamed by the associated equiptment. One can draw many conclusions about both speakers by this statement alone.
I tell you this get's very confusing some times. Horns have posed new problems but brought forth an even more pleasing level of musicality that gets my foot a tapping and brings chills (seriously) when mated with these lil' SET's. Thats where I want to be.
Happy Listening!
All families fight, sometimes irrationally. I made my point and I'll stay away from your personal life in the future. When I disagree on a technical matter, I'll let you know. And when I screw up, you should feel free to take your best shot.Your explanation above is, IMNSHO, your best post yet on audio and the effect onf changing taste. Our difference in getting to where we are is probably a reflection of my having quite a few more years in which to make audio mistakes (and made them I have). When I heard what a 300B could do through an inexpensive speaker like the Conquests, I knew I wanted to go down that road.
But I had heard enough speakers over nearly 30 years to know I simple didn't want to bounce from one efficient box to another slightly more efficient box. I didn't know, at first, that I would wind up at horns, but when you think of it, it makes perfect sense. A 70-year old technology would need the first true loudspeaker technology.
I wanted to get free, also, of the semi-constant tweaking with cables, cones, etc. Oartly through becoming increasingly more skeptical that this really did a lot of good past a certain point, and partly because that sort of thing keeps taking one away from the music.
And, as my triode knowledge level increased, I want a speaker that would let me experiment and not send me back to the drawing board everytime I found a circuit using a little used triode came along.
Finally, like you, the experience is about getting to a point where the system brings
> > forth an even more pleasing level of musicality that gets my foot a tapping and brings chills (seriously) when mated with these lil' SET's. Thats where I want to be. < <
Me, too.
Smokin' the peace pipe in Tennessee,
Phil
Horn, Horns , Horns.......theres a point to this post...you just have to read the whole damn thang thar below tho.Ahhh, a new lesson in a new book for me. With me originally wanting a full range driver that could play from like 1 Hz to like 300K and be run off a single watt and measure flat and do everything right and and and and and....
Well, let's say I've heard some of dem' dere big Ol horns and I haven't liked what I heard in the past. I also didn't understand the set up. Nor did I really pay much attention to those old thangs at the time. As they was horns. What could dem do's?
Well, old can be really good I do tell. As ummm......my favorite 2A3 now is the Arcturus. Made during the depression of course. However I must state that it may not be my favorite for long as I sourced some NOS RCA mono's and I just received the AVVT 2A3 so things may change a bit...we'll have to see. !
Well, old isn't bad is it. So enter the easiest solution to the full range dilemma. The Altec 604. Yes, and after much debate of course. As I really wanted to do it crossover less with the Lowthers. However many drawbacks and headaches it "seemed."
The 604's have found a place in my heart. As they can take you there to that musical place. They can take you on a ride with little power. They can be magical. Though they lack the top most breath of air and roll of fast between 50-60 Hz.
Well, no problem I'll buy a sub. Ya....easier said then done. However then I fell upon the Edgarhorn sub. Mates almost seamlessly w. the 604. With the "almost" being the 604's fault as they can't keep up during certain material. However the match works 90% of the time.
To solve the solution I decided to take the Lowther project off the back burner. Seeing as Bruce just understands horns. PSSSSSSS....he uses TAD's in his Titans also! Well, I heard from Craig Uthus that he and Bruce were making some hyperbolic horns.
Knowing what Bruce is capable of. I'm taking a chance and going for broke. I was debating the use of a Lowther. However I also wanted treble extension. The PM2A rolls of after about 14K. However has a little bit of weirdness going on in the upper octaves and doesn't measure flat on top from what I'm told. The PM6A does measure flat but rolls of at 10K. The PM2A is also suppose to offer better transparency then the PM6A. However the PM6A will work better with Bruces suggested Fane super tweeter. Though Bruce said it will work fine with the PM2A also. However the PM2A still has that weirdness on the top end. OK, I'm being picky.
So I debated for a long time and ummm.......ya.....ummmm........ahhhh....Opted to go with the Reps-1 ultra lights. OK, the PM6A are about 750 beans....the PM2A 1250 and the Reps-1......$3500....ahhh might as well opt for the ultra lights for another 5 bills. Hell, it's not like it makes a difference once your spending TAD like money for drivers.
The Reps is said to be as faster, measure flat to 16K, rolls off at 16K and I believe is -3db at 20K. Not 100% sure on this though. Well, I can't wait to put it all together. Maybe by end of next week. (all these drivers are based off of old technology!...YUP...more pertinent later down)
OK, now to the point of my post. As I'm not trying to brag. Rather I'm trying to say that horns can be great but need much love to set-up. As one needs to decide if one wishes to go with a full range driver....crossover-less full range driver....full range....full
range bi/tri amping.......God where does it all end. So many decisions so little time. But in the end I feel as if it will pay of indeed. As I know what the Edgarhorn Subhorn is capable of below 50-60 Hz. Which is more then I have ever heard from any other speaker in this area. So I have to wonder what it will do run by a separate ss sub amp crossed over at 90 hz with the S2A3 running the hyperbolic horn themselves. God, I feel like I'm there. I'm so excited. Like a 5 year old in Toy R Us.
This is where my journey has taken me. To technology that spans nearly a century. In a world that deems that technology of today betters that of yesterday. Yet, as Thomas Edison placed limitations on the Patent stating that no one should be able to hold the sole rights forever to a Patent as technology is based off of existing technology.
I believe the same to be true with SET and horns. As SET's use some damn old technology....only in a new way. As parts quality has come a long way. Just as driver technology has. Both seem to be making SETs and horns of yester year very welcome in the next century. Hell, we might as well throw PP's and OTL's into the mix as well. As they are all based on technology that is far from new yet still stands the test of time. Now if we could only get current production tube technology back to that of what was lost half a century ago.
Me Smokem Peace Pipe in Chicago as well,
Happy Listening,
Bryan F.A review of the Edgar Sub horn to follow. As someone said to me, "you can't defy physics." This was said in reply to me mentioning that the Edgar sub horn bettered any bass reflex I've layed ears on. Why didn't someone tell me this earlier? Why aren't there more horns out there? I don't get it.
You are going to use the Reps-1 in a hyperbolic horn designed by Bruce Edgar, possibly add the Fane tweeter and use Bruce's Seismic Sub? If this is right, take a look at the Marchand Amp/Xover combo. SS and can be run in Class A. But I think that with the hyperbolic you will need to crossover higher. IIRC from your earlier posts, the horn "achieves" 90 Hz, but likely needs to be Xovered at say 150-200Hz depending on the chosen slope. Are you going to let the Reps run free like Bert Doppenberg does in the Oris 150 with the PM4A/DX-4? This would be a good thing to bring up with Doc since he uses the Deep Throat with the Whamo subs.If you add the tweeter (although consider the TAD ET-703), you can probably drive both with the Moth and hang a cap off the tweeter for a high-pass filter.
> > A review of the Edgar Sub horn to follow. As someone said to me, "you can't defy physics." This was said in reply to me mentioning that the Edgar sub horn bettered any bass reflex I've layed ears on. Why didn't someone tell me this earlier? Why aren't there more horns out there? I don't get it. < <
Well, lotsa reasons. It's old technology and folks wan't the latest, not what their grandparents had. The High-End for years has spread misinformation about horns and/or people's frame of reference was Klipsch driven by sand from the early '70s (that was mine). Horns are for PA systems. And most people don't even know what they are. A speaker is a box with a grill on it.
Somewhere down the line I want to play with a Lowther/Reps arrangement. But since I have the T-1s, I want to go the full-range route so I can compare pluses and minuses.
> > > But I think that with the hyperbolic you will need to crossover higher. IIRC from your earlier posts, the horn "achieves" 90 Hz, but likely needs to be Xovered at say 150-200Hz depending on the chosen slope. < < <I believe that the hyperbolic horns do take the Lowther/Reps flat down to 90 or 70 hz (depending on enclosure). However they fall off steeply below their given response.
Also I looked at the Marchand sub amp. I don't know how much difference any amp will make crossed over below 100 hz. Hey, I'm new to bi-amping if you can really call this bi-amping. I debate this myself. As it's like adding a sub.
I'm in a new weird place I tell you!
The decision to use the Reps was for several reasons. One being that I would be able to not have to use a super tweeter. As the roll off begins at half an octive and doesn't roll off steeply. I'll have to wait and see when everything is set-up though. A super tweeter is always an add able option.Bruces sub is 106 db effecient. However it needs current! So I'm driving it with.....I can't believe this either a NHT SA2 sub amplier. Yes, it's a NHT. Secondly it's a SA2 and yes my amplifier is a S2A3. The SA2 has volume control and allows for crossover attenuation.
Bruce and Moth are offering the enclosures unfinished now. However a finished version will be available in January or around about.
The horns are the L90's and bigger L70's. With the 90's capable of 90 hz and the 70's capable of 70 hz. The 90's are suppose to be less colored. Also they were designed around the Lowthers but the Reps can be dropped in.
My plan is to run the L90's with out a crossover. There job will be to play 90 hz on up. It seems to me that the biggest drawbacks of Lowthers and the likes are the upper and especailly the lower octives.
The Reps takes care of a lot of the treble problems. It's also suppose to go lower. But let's face it, it isn't exactly big but it is fast. Now the Sub horn is big and is also fast! Really fast!!!
How do able is this? Well, Bruce finally dropped a sub horn off at Moth Audio and Craig Uthus tells me it works fine. Actually he said theres something happening here! After which he seemed very excited. I've had this thought for some time and I thought Craig had heard the two together but didn't until mid last week. Let's just say that the sub is Bruces while the hyperbolic horns were designed by Bruce and are being offered by Moth.
I do remember that upon recieving Bruces sub I was floored. Scott Black, Bruce Edgar, and Craig Uthus told me it was something special. I couldn't agree more. It was suppose to mate permanently with my 604's. However after seeing what it's capable of I see more promise going the hyperbolic horn route. Not to mention the 604 aren't fast enough for the sub. Isn't it usually the other way around?!
I don't think that there is going to be a problem with integration. As the crossover point is 90 hz. I've heard that the problem with the Oris is that it doesn't go down to 150 hz. I've read it's more like 170 + or - that is. 90 should work out pretty darn good.
Theres kind of a compromise going on. In that I don't get a single full range driver that can do everything. However I still get one that doesn't need a crossover and should mate well with the S2A3. So I get to keep that purity and refinement. I also get the speed of the Reps. Now a purist might have a problem with the Sub horn. On the other hand it does things that I never dreamt possible. So I think it will offer the best of both worlds. Tight, deep, articulate bass that offers a huge shock wave and a midrange that offers detail, purity and speed to boot. Along with treble that should be refinded and very well extended.
Will the treble sound rolled off? Well, if the roll off begins at 16K and the Reps are flat to 16K I don't relly think it will be an issue. Again I'll have to wait and see. If needed I'll add a super tweet.
The S2A3 will allow for a lot of head room. As the Reps are 99.8 db effecient alone. Though I'm told the Hyperbolic horns don't add to the sensitivity as they are bottom firing. Firing at the bottom front, right, and left of the cabinet.
One reason (in addition to the ones you cite) there aren't more horns out there is size. bass horns are BIG. I believe that and the advent of stereo (2 BIG speakers) were a couple of the reasons acoustic suspension speakers were eventually developed and became so popular(also the increasing availablity of higher power amps). Next time I go to Michigan I'd like to try and budget the time to go the Brighton. Unfortunately, I can't see having anything as big as the T1's or even the T3's. I didn't care for the way Mirage M5si's dominated my room visually when I had themBTW given the current multiple clashes on AA its nice to see some amiableness (is that a word). Gosh and golly gee willikers
I have many thoughts on this subject. As aren't most of us looking for the Holy Grail?!!!So in looking for that Holy Grail we tweak and swap and and........
In this tweaking and swapping there are trade offs. You spend a lot more and get just a little bit better most of the time. There are few leaps. There are also exceptions. For instance the S2A3 is the cheapest amp I've owned in quite some time yet for me it's a leap.
Well, this damn sub horn is more then a little better. It's notably better. It's a leap for me. Usually I'll pay for anything if I have a preference one way or the other. As this means that I perceive a difference.
Well, I have a preference as I perceive a difference. However the difference isn't a little. It's a lot. It's a leap!
(I posted my review on a few rec. boards and my thoughts are expressed there as well on this issue. I'll be posting it soon here.)
Upon seeing this thing which is 6 ft. tall X 26" deep X 35" wide if memory serves me right. Well, I thought at first that this thing is way tooooooo BIG. After hearing it I'm in love. It is a work of art. My eyes water with thoughts of music....just sheer music. (even still now every time I listen)
PRO's and CON's PRO's and CON's PRO's and CON's PRO's and CON's
Let's see the thing begins rolling off at 40hz is -3 db at 35hz and -12 db at 20hz. Yep, thats it and it's huge. However it needs to be heard. As one hasn't heard what a thing this size is capable of. Especially with an 18" PAS woofer. It also offers speed and detail that adds up to musicality. I always have to slap my face when I say that. "Musical bass"? What is that? My god does it sound good.
The downside is the size but thats also a good thing. For instance a bass reflex sub is capable of a much lower response in a much smaller package. However this bass horn is capable of everything else and it's size is a pro as it presents a realistic shockwave. It can play effortlessly and makes a bass reflex sub sound slow. Not to mention it's more then enough for music IMHO. In the past I "needed" speakers rated down to 20-30 Hz. This thing tells a different tale.
I can see the size being a problem. However I question this problem as we try and do everything possible to reproduce music and find some Holy Grail yet cringe at size. I understand this and I also don't.
I guess my views have changed upon hearing the Edgarhorn subhorn. Maybe because I feel now that any other sub design is just a compromise of a basshorn. Compromises that I've lived with for a long time. Compromises that I now live with out. Except for the compromise of size. Which in my book is much better then a compromise in sound. Then again I have the room.
Damn trade-offs!
Is that a prediction?If you were referring to the sappy Xmas gift post I take offense. You wanna play rough? Let's meet out back of the church hall after the Men's Thursday Night Bridge Club and we'll see who's the ruffian ;-) Leave the binding post knucklers at home where they belong.
Did you see "Fight Club"? You'd like it m'boy.
One more thing. Just kidding. Fight the good fight.
Not referring to your post. Thought it was rather good, actually. For a curmudgeonly old heathen, I actually turn into an old softie around Christmas. We put a tree upstairs and down, keep a pot of mulled cider on the stove, and cook for friends like crazy.Got out of the materialistic side, too, by and large. Small gifts to friends and family of course. But my wife and I don't exchange, and haven't ever. When we first got together, I was in school full-time and it was a matter of economics. When economics became a concern no more, we decided we liked it that way (no one-upsmanship and stuff) and decided for Christmas we would buy together music to listen to and books ton read on Christmas Day.
And this year, thanks to the suggestion of a good and long-time friend, we are going to drop our gift exchange with each other. Instead, he proposed we paln a holiday trip together rather than puzzle over which expensive trinket for each other. So between bowl games and Mardi Gras, we're going to New Orleans together in January.
Mr Pillar, my high school Latin teacher would rap my knuckles. It shoul be "Pace, amico." (1st declension dative singular)
> > > Astounding how you miss the point - which really isn't about audio at all. (my italics)Nor was most anything in the thread(s).
Could we perhaps just put all this to rest, and get back to arguing which 6SN7 is best?
Bill C
if duplicity and bias aren't important to you, by all means. But comparing 6SN7s isn't nearly as much fun ;-).
Butt-sniffing is just a little too vivid a metaphor for my comfort, lol. If you are referring to dominance behavior in pack animals, perhaps just a little direct eye contact and leg humping would work . . .
I guess butt sniffing is a little too vivid of a picture. Whenever we get together with new musicians, you would be surpised how people approach this a lot like a dog sniffing out another dog. You look at their gear, talk a little, look at their gear some more, ask them questions, a little one up manship, talk about influences, look at their gear, ask them to play a little. I don't pretend to understand the "Phil vs. Bryan" thing, but as someone who really likes Phil, (from what little I know of him from reading his posts) I wished things didn't get as ugly as they did.Dan
I also wish things here didn't get so ugly so quickly either. I have to believe if we were all sitting together, sipping our favorite libation, we would not act this way. I think it is very hard on line to make any reasonable judgements about the people with whom we are dealing. However, I suspect most of us would be more personable, face-to-face. Perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part.
Rick,I think you (and Dan) are missing something in this. Speaking as the latest combatant, things did not get ugly quickly. Rather, I watched (and sometimes seethed) over time until, for me, something needed to be said. Part of this build up came from private e-mails from regular posters who concurred with my observations.
> > I think it is very hard on line to make any reasonable judgements about the people with whom we are dealing. < <
If this is true, then please refrain from judging me or others whose nature it is to argue a point with more force than you would choose. Because this is a hi-fi discussion group does not render it immune from human emotion.
With respect to these sorts of exchanges being more personable "in person". Yes and no. I assure you the two points that set me off this week would have come to a head much more quickly in person. My Bullshit-o-meter is far more sensitive when I have the facial expressions and body language to go with the words. What you read here is rather reserved on my part.
I am distrustful of those who claim never to be angry, claim that they never have fights with spouses and friends. Those folks are explosions wainting to be detonated.
Phil:My post was not directed specifically towards this thread, just interactions in general here and elsewhere on audio boards.
I was not making any judgements, and I definately use "we" because I am not immune from this sort of thing either.
As to your implication about me not being emotionally expressive . . . well, that is just funny.
nowhere did I say you weren't emotionally expressive. My memory, despit age, ain't that short :-). Just a generalization, much like yours.
Phil:I have learned not to make any assumptions about memory with old codgers like us.
I just think this forum would be more inviting to more people, and more useful if differences and disagreements were less acrimoniously expressed. The fact that my tastes might differ from yours, doesn't mean that either of us is intellectually or morally deficient. It simply means we do not agree. Nor is there any reason why we should.
I worry that less assertive residents avoid posting, because they fear reprisal at a personal level. I don't think this serves anyone well.
Here's what I think. I bet your system is wonderful. I know mine is. They are undoubtably different in many ways. Yours suits you. Mine suits me. I would like to hear yours. I wonder if you are similarly inclined.
However, I think dismissive comments like " . . . all X is crap." serves no one well.
actually, Rick, I am. What I choose for me does not exclude listening to what others have chosen. Every (well, most ;-)) carefully chosen system where attention has been paid to details like room and set-up (do I need more qualifiers or is that enough?) will have its strengths. If I were to focus solely on that which I feel has come to suit me, my learning in this hobby would effectively stop.While I agree that comments like "..X is crap" aren't helpful (and, unfortunately, I have been guilty of same), I do feel rather strongly that some lines are or have become rip-offs. I number Wilson Audio at the top of the list. If Wilson speakers actually made music, I would excuse their obscene price tag, but the fact that none I have heard (SLAMMs, WATT/Puppy, WITT II, CUBBs) do is inexcusable. I feel the same way about Levinson. OTOH, I have always found Nelson Pass' designs by far the most enjoyable SS amps to listen to, and I'm dying to hear the 47 Labs Gaincard.
On the tube side, I think ARC has lost the way, by and large, though their more modest tube products (LS-8, PH-3) are at least not rip-offs and do produce music. But they are a far cry from the SP-3, Sp-6, Classic 60 days.
Believe it or not, I really want to hear (and like) SACD. It's just at this stage of the game there's no point (to me) in gettin' all het up about it. I believe the future of digitized music is downloads to SS storage devices, so any new format has to be viewed as an interim format.
> > I worry that less assertive residents avoid posting, because they fear reprisal at a personal level. I don't think this serves anyone well. < <
I can't argue with this, but I have a somewhat different view of what constitutes personal. With the exception of obvious poseurs like "Andrew Scott" and the Brentworth controversy, I don't bare my fangs toward the newly on board. And when someone sets themselves up as a "guru" with only hot air for support, well... I can't be all that intimidating. I receive an average of 2 to 3 private e-mails a day asking my opinions which, I always caution, are worth exactly what they paid for it.
Gee Phil . . .I was picking your canines out of my ass for about a week there :-)
My observations are not directed specifically at you, or anyone else. However, as you say, you have a great deal of sway here.
I think the only way we avoid moderation (its their baby, after all) is through practicing moderation ourselves.
For me, although I would not purchase Wilson or even CJ for my own use, I certainly believe that many people do and will, and will enjoy this equipment enormously, not because they "don't know any better", but because it fits whatever the "absolute" sound is they carry around in their heads.
You and I have both been at this a long time, and hardly represent the average audiophile. I suspect we both know "exactly" how we want things to sound. However, this does not mean we are right, it's just our sensibilities, not some absolute truth.
I make shake my head at someone who says they can experience audio heaven with a system that has little audible output below 40 cycles, but I believe its true for them.
More to the point in this discussion, I think disagreeing, and mistreating each other out of disagreement are not the same thing.
when I say i consider that Wilson is a rip-off, it's not meant to imply those who buy it don't know any better. That may be true on occasion, but those who have the sheckels and pony up to David's bar are getting what they want - either the Wilson sound or status, Whichever, if the buyer deems it's worth the price of entry, so be it. But to me, they continue to be vastly overpriced for what they are and distinctly amusical. That's a nice way of saying rip-off.To your final point, there is a difference between mistreating the innocent and unmasking the poseur or calling out a hypocrite.
phonies like "Andrew Scott" materialize from nowhere seeking to post and then control their threads. As soon as I voiced suspicions, he jumped all over me. I've observed the same reactions from "Excellent" Charles, who then whines and complains and slithers away.I do like to try to keep it at the level of issuing a challenge rather than flaming or insulting, but the line is easy to cross in a moment of emotional reaction.
Dave
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