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I'm casting my own horns after some made for RCA and designed by Volkman during the early fifties. I'm looking for a good 2" compression driver that will reinforce from 400 hz to 22Khz in a two way system. This is for a large recording studio in a three channel left-right-center system. Does anyone know about the new Emminence 2" driver? I'm also looking for some 1" compression drivers to use with JBL 2345 40 x 90 degree horns for use in a horse arena. Any help would be great, Thanks a bunch! James
Follow Ups:
Consider SELENIUM D3300Ti DPD.
Linear and crisp high from 500Hz to 25000Hz at -10dB .
You can see data sheet at Selenium Site. I've make some test and this driver sound better than some similar JBL driver but at half price.
The TAD4001 should work fine from 400hz on up if you limit RMS power to the 15-20 watt range below 600hz (probably not too hard to approximate with a first order xover and maybe a little help from the horn flare just above cutoff).I can't say the JBL 2445J has the 'best' native sonics, but I've got mine on the basement blasters sounding quite good with a not-precisely simple passive xover. I'm running them with B&C ME75 flat front CD horns (very similar to JBL 2380's but aluminum & 5% smaller) and crossing over at about 700hz 'quasi' first order (it's already down two or three db more @500hz compared to a simple first order), and it's running essentially flat right out to 20khz or a little better (I'm boosting to about 23 khz) with good 90 x 40 dispersion control over most of that range. I've got the horn jammed immediately above the top 15" woofer doubling as the midrange above 300hz in a 3 2226J vertical array so that vertical lobing is not a serious problem & the 20" width of the cabinet allows smooth horizontal dispersion control throughout the xover range to the woofer as well as providing some baffle step gain that the top woofer needs in the 500hz-800hz range to maintain the 101db/8 ohm nominal system efficiency in that range (along with 4db of xover boost).
I'm also continuing to experiment with my air nonlinearity compensation network. I have ordered parts for the second pass prototype (& hopefully final version) of this circuit and most initial listening tests are highly promising - frequencies above 3khz remain more distinct with less noticeable coloration when SPLs get intense - it seems to hit perceptibly harder with transient energy above 5khz and float cymbals better during dense loud passages although the one channel I have it on now might be a tad overcompensated somewhat along the lines of a new subwoofer setup in a preexisting sound system.
A.J. May is still alive and well, and last year everyone who came to the OswaldsMill Tube and Speaker Tasting got a special treat when A.J. showed up with fellow RCA engineer Hans Dietze to listen and comment on an audiophile application of the radial bass horns he was instrumental in designing. Its not often that the guy who designed the equipment you are listening to, 50 years earlier, shows up at your house for a listen. At some point I am going to have to photograph and post the RCA prototypes AJ helped design, none of which ever were manufactured (alas.)As for Ed's question about how the RCA radials sound compared to Edgar salad bowls, I personally listen to the RCA gear in a very large listening room, and the dispersion of the horns, as well as their hemi-cylindrical wavefront work well. I think the answer would be very room dependent.
Consider the Peavey compression drivers.The 44XT is a 1.6" throat with a 2" adaptor available, and has a 4" diaphragm.
Not only are the specs great, but the sound is very smooth and clean.Same for the RX22 driver, std 0.875" throat, and couples to 1" nominal horns. It is threaded, but I think adaptors are avalable (check with Peavey Service Center).
The best part is, neither the drivers or the replacement diaphragms cost a fortune.
The following are obviously my opinion:
As for sound quality, I would stack the 44XT up against ANY other 4" diaphragm driver, including the TAD.The RX22 is better sounding than the Eminence, and many others as well.
DISCLAIMER:
I work for Peavey, as a pro loudspeaker system design engineer.
Obviously, I might be biased. On the other hand, I have compared the Peavey drivers to many other brands, and have a lot of experience in these matters.To check out the driver specs, go to the Peavey web site,at:
http://www.peavey.com/products/shop_online/browse.cfm/action/drill/sub/2E/c/2E/cb/2A2E/fam/2/speaker.cfm
or call Customer Service at:
601-483-5365Some of Peavey's mainstream speaker parts and drivers are now available at Musicians Friend at a discount, as well as Sam Ash.
I agree with the other posters that trying to cover 400-20k with a single driver is very difficult, if not impossible, to do. I have always found that when crossing over at around 500Hz that high frequencies will need help in the top octave (even from the favorite vintage drivers). If you decide you can live with a tweeter, then a very good 2" driver is the Selenium D405 (not the Ti). The D405 uses a phenolic diaphragm, and can be used down to 400 Hz, but will need help on the high end above 5-6k. If you want to try and cover the whole range with 1 driver, you will need to go to a titanium diaphragm, which will go higher than the phenolic, although the phenolic has better midrange in my experience. Equalizing will help, although the highs will become quite directional in the top octave using 1 driver.
If you use a round horn, then a 2" throat driver will beam above about 6 or 7 kHz. The BMS 4590 tries to get around this by using a concentric driver - a 1" dome inside a 2" ring radiator - but I haven't been able to get a smooth transition between the two radiating elements.So if you want wide high frequency coverage with a 2" throat driver, then you need a horn geometry that addresses the issue. Horns with vanes or lenses were used in the past to get good high frequency coverage (notably by JBL and Altec), and the TAD TH4001 still uses vanes. Multicell horns also gave improved high frequency coverage. Today such designs have largely been supplanted by diffraction horns, for ease of manufacture and (often but not always) lower coloration. As in all things audio, the name of the game is tradeoffs. If you want to use a 2" throat driver to cover the entire upper range, then you must choose between the wider high frequency coverage of a wide-pattern rectangular horn and the lower coloration of a round horn. With 2" throat drivers I lean towards constant-directivity diffraction horns, whereas with 1" throat drivers the high frequency coverage will be wide enough to allow the use of round constant-directivity horns.
There are some generalizations in the above statements, of course.
Four hundred Hz to 22 kHz is quite a spread; offhand I don't know of any 2" horn/driver combination that can realistically cover that range in a high-power system. Among the few 2" throat drivers that can go up to 20K ballpark are the BMS 4590, TAD 4001, and Radian 950 PB (there may well be others that I haven't tried yet). You asked about a new 2" Eminence driver; I haven't heard it, but I'd be quite surprised if it has adequate energy in the top octave for a two-way such as you have envisioned. I wouldn't recommend any of the current 2" JBL drivers, as they are lacking in top-octave energy (maybe some of their older drivers do better in the top octave). Also, power handling on any of these drivers is compromised with a 400 Hz crossover; any chance you could push it up to 600?In my experience, in a large horn the top end tends to be rather rolled off. You can put the same driver in a smaller horn with the same pattern characteristics, and it will have a more extended top end. So if you want a big horn (for a low crossover) then you either need a lot of equalization, or you need a driver with a lot of energy in the top octave. I've been playing around with some large 26" by 18" mouth constant-directivity horns (with an extremely uniform 90 degree by 40 degree pattern), and of the drivers mentioned above the Radian is probably the best match with that big horn. I've been crossing over around 600 Hz.
I personally like the idea of using a single driver from say 600 Hz on up; I have yet to hear a system with a horn super-tweeter that didn't have some integration anomalies.
Best of luck with your system!
That was my thought. The TAD 4001 will get up to 20Khz, but not flat. It peaks in the mids and is 6 or 10db down at 20K without compensation.
The big horn I was referring to is the DDS 90 by 40 theater horn, link below. Unfortunately, it's designed to be mounted using a pro-style "omni-mount" system instead of bolting onto a baffle, so it's not easy to incorporate into an all-in-one-box loudspeaker. But the uniformity of coverage within its radiation pattern is the best I've heard from a big horn. Note that the dimensions given on the page linked to are incorrect; the horn measures 26" wide by 18" tall by 17" deep.
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pro-sound company - think out of business or changed in scale - got 1" fornat horns kinda like your DDS - but mouth is only about 12"x24" - depth ~21" and no 'neck' on throat so seems ~CD 90x40 and graph tracks tightly from on -30 off horizontalhows the DDS sound so far? (is their round waveguide useful for home speakers??)
James, BMS are unspeakable garbage drivers, stay way form them. As far as 2" compression driver there is none properly sounding driver that would cover the range you need. Although, be advised, that for a serious reproduction you do not need any 22K foolishness. If you were able to properly reproduce 12K then consider you get what you need.
The BMS already mentioned should be a good choice, Josh is playing with those now I think. OTher choices would be JBL 2441, 2445 or 2450 probably. (I Have extras of 2445 if anyone is interested. I am looking for 2440 or 2441 myself. Info on all these @ www.jblpro.com)
If you are talking about casting the radial aluminum horns in the 9500 series, like the 9595 or 9594 90degree and 60 degree horns, I wish you luck. I know the RCA engineers who worked on developing those horns, specifically A.J. May, and they always impressed upon me how difficult those were to cast. A fiberglass version of these horns was also used in the LC-9, and this also was a difficult shape to manufacture, even in fglass. These horns were not meant to go above 8-10 k, so why not just use a supertweeter? Furthermore, for a recording studio I would assume you want high quality sound, not high power handling, and none of the modern drivers which would fit these horns has the quality that the original drivers do, meaning the phenolic diaphram MI 9584 or MI 9548. Seems like you would be better off just sourcing the original parts, at least for your studio project. They are not hard to find.
Cheers,
Jonathan
Speaking of those horns and drivers.. I just got a pair. RCA 9584(A?), in quite nice shape, with the single-throats, on a pair of 9594 90 deg. horns, which have the damping material still on them. How do these stack up against some of the JBL stuff like Edgardhorn 350hz saladbowl with a JBL 2440 or 41? I am thinking of using them in a 3 or 4 way system. Currently listening to JBL 2482's on their big 2395 lenses, with an EV ST-350 tweet on top, which is a good combo (so far). Any info or scans/pdfs on these that are available on the web would be most appreciated. (The RCA stuff, the JBL info is easy to find). The guy I got them from has another set of the horns with single-throats I believe, but w/o drivers. He also has some metal (tar coated?) 2 x 5 cell horns, I think they are for Altecs but not sure - were in a dark dusty location and it was hard to see.
Is A.J. still alive? Hopefully? Thanks James
The BMS 4590 can be used from 400-20Khz with a large enough horn. I am using one on a 2380 horn but you would need a larger horn for 400Hz. BMS makes a horn for around $100 named the 2236 that should work to 450Hz, maybe slightly lower.
I've got two 2426 drivers. Send me an email if interested.
This sounds like a veiled ad.
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