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In Reply to: Re: What's REALLY going on here? posted by Phil Tower on April 29, 2004 at 12:00:45:
... and Steve is educating us. i see nothing wrong with what he's doing.I'm willing to ignore whether JPS's advertising claims are ethical and go straight to the crux of the matter. By "taking advantage of their customers' lack of knowledge" I simply mean this: JPS is aware of a company in Belgium that makes a certain power cord that is, apparently, beneficial for audiophile use. The Belgium supplier is not exploiting the market themselves. JPS is taking this product, making it cosmetically more "presentable" for its new use, and bringing it to the attention of the audiophile market. They are pricing the product in line with what other audiophile power cords with similar (presumed) benefits sell for and making a handsome profit. This is capitalism. JPS Labs is not a charity that is required to provide benefits to consumers for free.
However, once this fact is discovered, no one is under any obligation to protect JPS's little secret. No one is doing anything wrong here by pointing out that JPS is making a profit off of their customers' ignorance. In my mind, this isn't a legal or moral problem - simply a case of raising consumer awareness. And I think that's a good thing.
Follow Ups:
if you go to the grocery store, you can find "Clorox" brand liquid bleach, which is nothing more than a dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite.Right next to that, you can buy the "house brand" liquid bleach, which is the exact same thing, for less . . . But people must still buy "Clorox" or else the company wouldn't stay in business.
It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model. In reality, the only thing that you buy on a cost-based pricing model is something from a rate-regulated public utility, like your local power company. Everything else is sold on market-based pricing -- which is the price at which the seller is able to realize a sufficient volume of sales to meet its expectations for a return on its investment (and, of course, recovery of its costs). Assuming, for purposes of this discussion, that JPS's Digital AC power cord is nothing more than a stock Eupen cord with nylon wrapping, the price difference between the two (whatever that is) simply reflects the value of information.
Turning to another product market (cars), I would ask all of you Lexus ES300 owners, is your Lexus really worth the price premium over the Toyota Camry (which is what the ES 300 is, with some cosmetic differences)? Do you feel "ripped off" knowing that your Lexus is really a Toyota in fancy dress? Would you like to know whether additional cost built into the Lexus (for a nicer interior or whatever) is proportionately recognized in its higher sale price. Put differently, would you be pissed to know that Toyota makes 100% return on its incremental investment in upgrading a Camry to a Lexus (i.e. $3,000 in additional costs supports a $6,000 price difference [speaking hypothetically])?
The most useful piece of information I have gleaned from all of this is that I wouldn't want the Eupen cord (or the JPS Cord if it's the same as the Eupen) in my system, now that I see how its filter is wired, because I use balanced power. I doubt that the designers of either cord intended for both the "hot" and "neutral" conductors to be energized, which is what they will be with balanced power. It might be nice if JPS gave its customers a "heads-up" in that regard, since that would apply to everyone who uses a balanced isolation transformer, or, I believe, a PS Audio powerplant. But maybe that's what dealers are for!! ;-)
"It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model."I don't know who those "people" are, but I hope you're not including me.
In a free market, products sell based on what people are willing to pay for them. Sometime stiff competition keeps retail price relatively in line with cost, but there are many things (including effective marketing or barriers to entry) that can skew that relationship, and there is often nothing wrong with that.
BUT, if you are going to have a truly free, open market (which as a Barry Goldwater Conservative, I believe in), then consumer education and information has to be part of the equation. There is no justification I can think of for protecting manufacturers from people disclosing the type of information that Steve disclosed about the JPS cables. An informed consumer base keeps markets truly competitive and efficient - which as I understand it is the core justification for capitalism.
The greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people will be created when the market is the most efficient. Efforts to artificially stem globalization and foreign outsourcing are bound to fail in the long run, as these efforts will only foster inefficiency and thwart innovation - factors that are sure to make it more difficult for many people to climb out of poverty and ensure stagnation amoung the fortunate few who have already escaped its grasp.
The people in this discussion who seem to want to censor dissemination of legitimate consumer information remind me of those who oppose globalization - they may protect some cable company in the short run, but in the end if they succeed in thwarting and discouraging people like Steve, there will be little incentive for true innovation as the means of disseminating the type of information that rewards true inovation will have withered. Marketing and packaging will be all that matters. That would be the greatest disservice of all to audiophile consumers.
'66
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
"people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model. In reality, the only thing that you buy on a cost-based pricing model is something from a rate-regulated public utility, like your local power company."It's an excellent point (although your analogy about a rate regulated utility is incorrect - how could it be cost based if it's regulated? - regulation brings neither cost based nor market, it generally brings 'what most people can afford without political consequences') - I wonder if those participating in this pile-on actually appreciate that virtually nothing in consumer products is priced based on a cost multiple, nor do they realize how few real manufacturers there are and that they pay for the brand in hundreds of other products they buy.
Some years ago I was in Hong Kong and visited, by invitation, a very large garment plant whose entire production was exported to western markets. After the obligatory tour, the owner asked me if I would like a few shirts to take home, I said sure, he then asked what brand I would prefer - Calvin Klein, Armani, Ralph Lauren, Lacoste, actually the names and labels were much higher end and all Italian - and the actual labels said Made In Italy. When you are buying that Valentino suit that is made in Italy, you are often buying a product made in one of those generic Asian factories and the markup to the retailer is purely based on what the BRAND - not the product - can attract.
The Audio market is no different, why are people not complaining that their $5000 speakers use $100 worth of common Seas drivers and some veneered MDF?
"would you be pissed to know that Toyota makes 100% return on its incremental investment in upgrading a Camry to a Lexus (i.e. $3,000 in additional costs supports a $6,000 price difference [speaking hypothetically])?"
Being in the marketing business and having done tons of automotive research, I can tell you that Lexus customers (any such high end brand, actually) when told that will always say they are not upset in the least and are still perfectly satisfied with their Lexus. Why? They were already aware, conciously or subconciously, that they were paying a premium for the brand and it's exclusivity that came from it's premium price - in fact, they sought out the premium price specifically so they could obtain the intangible the higher price tag provides, and not for any tangible product attributes.
I suggest that audio is no different, or maybe, it is even more a case where buyers are paying for brand and intangibles, so the case of the JPS cable being bandied about here is rather silly, what did people think was happening anyways, and don't they realize this is prevalent throughout their equipment?
All true in the automotive world. But in the automotive world I can research anything, and make an informed decision. There are plenty of places to find this information. The places we should be finding about high end audio are the main publications, Stereophile, TAS etc.
Unfortunately, they are not the ones that brought this to our attention. It is one of our own, and for this they deserve reward, not flames
And my favorite audio writer of all time (being serious) bought the JPS labs digital AC cord after reviewing it in Stereophile. So the damn thing probably sounds good, as it did to rp1. Since Mr. Dudley hadn't decided whether to buy one for a lingo power supply, since he hadn't decided whether to buy a lingo power supply yet, if he does, and he has read these posts, will he buy the JPS cord, or 5 eupen cords for $150?There is no doubt in my mind that the cord does something right for digital equipment that needs it. I've been watching this thread from the beginning, and it never started about pricing, it started as a post about what someone saw, and a post about the deletion of that original post. Not whether the cable sounded good enough to spend $350 on. I'm not going to comment on all the really bad economic arguments strewn about. I am going to say that information is a good thing for consumers and producers and the economy as a whole, and in my short time visiting this forum, it seems to be a good place to share information and thus become more educated.
--Jack
I wont metion
Manchester United shirts $3 in thialand, £40 ($70) in UK.
the rag trade has always done that, but then it has to fund the annual round of international fashon shows and supermodels at +$20k /day.
and, I would add, with respect to the Lexus, that, in the US at least, the "dealer experience" at a Lexus dealership is (I am told) far superior to the dealer experience at a Toyota dealership, with regard to service, maintenance, etc. So people are paying for that, too; and it's not an intangbile like "brand prestige" etc.As a sometime regulatory lawyer, I can tell you that "cost-of-service" regulation derives a price from inputs' costs and "cost of capital" used to deliver the product or service. One of the big arguments against such regulation is that it contains no incentives for efficiencies. To the extent that politics comes into the game (and it does, to be sure), it is usually to depress prices, not raise them. Unfortunately, any experienced regulated business knows how to "game the system" and make money, no matter what.
It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model.My concerns in this matter have had absolutely nothing to do with price.
For me it all has had to do with the deletion of rpl's original post on Cable Asylum.
Rpl removed the heatshrink and pulled back the sleeving of his JPS Labs power cord which revealed what by all outward appearances was a stock Eupen power cord.
Rpl posted this on Cable Asylum adding that Eupen power cords could be had for considerably less than the $350 asked for the JPS power cord.
Rpl's post was subsequently deleted at the request of JPS Labs based on their still unsubstantiated claim that the Eupen power cord under the sleeving is not a stock Eupen power cord.
I don't believe that rpl's post warranted deletion. And that's the issue I brought up here on General Asylum.
The whole issue of pricing that some keep bringing up is nothing more than a red herring.
se
If you have a complaint about moderation, that's for the "support" forum or Whiners' Woad. ;-)I was not attacking either you or rpl; sorry you took it that way.
But since you raised the issue, none of this makes any sense without reference to price or "value," a point that rpl apparently agrees with.
Do you seriously contend that the volume of the discussion here would have been the same, if the price of the Eupen and JPS cords had been the same? I doubt it.
If JPS Labs takes a European-sourced cord, re-brands it and spends the effort to market that product here in the US, then there's value added, whether you wish to recognize it or not.
If you have a complaint about moderation, that's for the "support" forum or Whiners' Woad. ;-)Ok. I'll go there and complain that the moderators didn't move my original post there. :)
I was not attacking either you or rpl; sorry you took it that way.
I didn't take it that way. Sorry you took that I took it that way. :)
It was the others I was refering to and I was just reiterating that my issue here has absolutely nothing to do with price.
But since you raised the issue, none of this makes any sense without reference to price or "value," a point that rpl apparently agrees with.
Depends on what the "this" is that you're referring to. If the "this" is all the various posts regarding JPS Labs, certainly much of it doesn't make any sense without reference to price or "value," but since I'm the one who started the "this" here in General (which I did only because I'm still banned on Cable Asylum and couldn't address it there, where this ultimately all started), I'd like to think the non-price/value issues I raised made some sense. :)
Do you seriously contend that the volume of the discussion here would have been the same, if the price of the Eupen and JPS cords had been the same? I doubt it.
Perhaps not. But by the same token, would the volume of discussion here been the same if so many people had not taken what I had originally posted which had nothing to dowith price/value and twisted it into a price/value issue?
If JPS Labs takes a European-sourced cord, re-brands it and spends the effort to market that product here in the US, then there's value added, whether you wish to recognize it or not.
It's not a matter of whether I wish to recognize that or not. It's that it's wholly irrelevant to anything I have said on the matter and that which I have taken issue with.
Again, what I took issue with was rpl's original post on Cable Asylum having been deleted.
se
is, is the value added worth the price?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
and I posted to let folk, especially the DIY guys, know what I found and that there were alternatives and . (I don't think that there is a home recipe yet for ferrite lined cords...)I don't for a moment believe that it will make any difference at all to those folk that only buy on the recommendation of reviewers or dealers. (A class that I was apparently in for a while; at the very least once.)
And, oh yeah, I was pissed off!
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
than stellar results from the Exact Power unit?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
I don't think the Exactpower unit generates balanced power, but who knows what other reasons there might be.
.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
and JPS rode (and presumably will still ride) the gravy-train with this product. Good for them. Now, at least, some folks (not many, but some) will know that there is an identical alternative that costs an order of magnitude less.Darn, but I wish I could think of profits in the order-of-magnitude range.....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
It has yet to be proven that the cords are IDENTICAL. They do appeard to be very similar. To similar.Even if the JPS is technically different, this could be one of those 98% of the performance for 10$ of the cost deals. Gee, did I say that elsewhere? Aw hell, let's kick the shit out of this horse some more!
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
..
nt
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