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I find the recent threads on cable manufacturing troubling. I don’t understand the surprise that a manufacturer uses sub-assemblies or pre-assembled parts from another manufacturer in the construction of their products, this happens in all industries. I work in the painting and wallcovering service business; we don’t manufacture our own paint, we don’t build our own tools, I personally only do a small percentage of the labor on our jobs, when we’re busy we must subcontract to qualified contractors, the best I can possibly do is control the quality of each job, yet my name goes on every job we do.The parties who have been pushing this issue are under the impression they have uncovered some plot or scheme, when in reality all they have done is discover how business is done every day all over the world. What I find truly amazing; Steve Eddy is in business and should understand this.
Either the cable works or it doesn’t work, and if it didn’t work to begin with why wasn’t it simply returned to the store within the first thirty days? The cable in question must work, looking back though rpl’s previous posts shows it being used in his system, which is wired completely with JPS cabling, and he is bragging about the performance of all his JPS cables. I’ve also noticed that he has recommended the Digital AC to others and noted the changes it made to different pieces of equipment. I’m still scratching my head wondering what happened to change his opinion so drastically and if there might be other issues that haven’t yet made it to the surface. I’ve seen mention by rpl of a friend owning a Hi-Fi store, does this friends store handle JPS? If after a year of use a cable falls out of favor due to system changes or personal taste then it should just be set aside and chalked up to experience.
Rpl seems to think he was misled by the companies advertising. I would argue that he is reading way to much into the advertising and has only himself to blame. What’s puzzling; if he felt mislead or cheated by JPS, why wouldn’t he immediately contact Joe at JPS and ask for an explanation instead of posting here at AA.
As far as a controversy; there simply isn’t one. All I see is a couple guys trying to make a name for themselves with the “cable companies are crooks group” here at AA, and dragging one companies name through the mud at the same time. I’ve been so disgusted I’m tempted to close my account here and never return. Steve Eddy and rpl on the other hand seem to be having the time of their lives; between the two of them they’ve made 172 posts from the 26th, the date of Steve’s first post, thru today.
Take Care,
Kevin
Follow Ups:
<> Had noticed the same, but refrained from saying it out loud. But you did and I think you're right!
Seriously, this stuff also borrows or is congruent with the cable naysayers ("I'ts all voodoo, why spend on wires, etc")
on AA as well, and you know what kind of periodic firestorms they ignite here too. I suppose that only the stereo mags incite more mail...
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If you really have evidence of this, please share that knowledge with us! I know an audio dealer who claims he found the sources for most of the best know brands, but he won’t tell me anything (I suspect he’s making too much money relabeling).This would be great information for audiophile consumers. For example, thanks to RP and Steve, if I ever need a filtered power cable, I now know I can go to Eupen and buy one for 8% of what JPS charges. And it looks like the *same* cable can be reused in DIGITAL, ANALOG and VIDEO.
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"If you really have evidence of this, please share that knowledge with us! I know an audio dealer who claims he found the sources for most of the best know brands, but he won’t tell me anything (I suspect he’s making too much money relabeling). "
I'll give you a hint: Go to www.belden.com for starters. The next stop could well be Home Depot or Lowes.
The Ever Evil Doctor Steel
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nt
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Well, based on JPS Labs' official (non)reply to this thread (link posted on Cable forum), I would never do business under any circumstance with JPS, a.k.a. Joe Skubinsky. Life is just too short with too many, hopefully honest, alternatives.
Three words brother: DIY. Half the fun is getting there. Cheers.
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This is my take.1. JPS provided a value added cable to audiophiles at a "reasonable" audiophile price. As long as its price/performance ratio is competitive, its source is irrelevant.
Even if their R+D consisted solely of auditioning filtered industrial cables, they are the ones who did the footwork. This is only conjecture but it seems they found a cable that sounded good to them for the application and marketed it to audiophiles. They put it in a nylon jacket and covered the plugs because audiophiles like this sort of thing. It has value added cosmetics. Sure it would be nice if they had announced in cable asylum, "Hey we found a great digital AC cord for $30 and here is where you can find it!!" but they are in the cable business. They found an industrial product that works well in an audio application and marketed it as an audio product. It is very common, e.g. line isolation transformers, sorbothane, etc. I don't think JPS is dishonorable, they offered a product which performed as claimed at a competitive price.
2. As for RPL and SE, they provided a service to Asylum members by revealing their findings. RPL opened up a cord and reported his findings. I think his conclusions are also reasonable, that the JPS cable was actually a dressed up stock Eupen cord. I don't think they were malicious or conspiratorial in any way. It's not unlike Sam Tellig telling us about Armor All when audiophile CD treatments were available. Now if we are so inclined, we can go out and try Eupen, as well as CAT5 cables and HD cords. Thanks.
So you see "no troubles" with JPS Labs advertising "WE GROW OUR OWN" and "MADE IN THE USA" (i.e., Stereophile, vol. 27, no. 5, May 2004, page 53)? Nothing dishonorable?
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When they found the Eupen cord, auditioned it, applied the jacket and added audiophile branding to make it look pretty, they added value to the stock Eupen, at least to audiophiles. This was done in the US. I think with any branded cable, the marketer/manufacturer implies they had something to do with its construction even if this contribution is trivial.No audiophile cable is worth the money strictly from a parts or manufacturing cost basis. You are paying for voicing and BRANDING. We all know this or are VERY naive. You could go out and search on your own from non-audiophile sources.
I use Cardas cables. They're marketing sounds like a bunch of hokey and I'm pretty sure it is. "Golden section stranding" Come on!! I could care less. They are also overpriced relative to parts cost and I know it. I could buy 10 DVD players for the price of a 1 meter interconnect. However, I haven't been able to find anything that sounds better in my system so I will continue to use it. Maybe it is 89cents/foot Home Depot wire. (if it is please let me know ;)) It probably doesn't cost significantly more to produce. Again I could care less. I listened to it, I liked the sound, and I knew the asking price when I bought it. I could care less if they sourced it from Home Depot, Rat Shack, Kimber, Vampire, or the planet Mars. George Cardas knows what sounds good, I like what he likes, and he either found or made it. I paid him the price for his "cable consulting/selection service". I am a happy camper and the 1 meter Cardas gives me much more pleasure than having 9 extra DVD players around.
I do wish some other manufacturers would chime in on this.
or any US cdp manufacturer with a Philips or Sony-based transport.They outsource the components, add some after-market value, re-package it, re-brand it, find a distribution channel, mark it up 2-4x then sell it to the audio community. It's been done ad-nauseum for years.
Did any of those other companies proclaim, in print no less, "WE GROW OUR OWN" and "MADE IN THE USA," while in reality they cosmetically repackaged another company's imported finished product?Please cite specific examples of such deception.
That's quite a sense of humor you've got there. You actually see similarities between the two, your're joking right??
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JPS power cord being discussed? Please tell us what you know about this.
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repainted, and a Merlin tag put on it. And sole for $2499.00?
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:¬)
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People simply see thing differently. The more people, the more the variety of opinions.JPS Labs appears to have done nothing out of the ordinary nor have they done anything that is far removed from standard business practices.
Production amps probably have less than ten percent of the list price in hard parts costs. I don't see why anyone would think cables are any different.
I have previously heard that _no_ cable manufacturers actually produce their own cables.
OTOH, If I had pulled the covering off and found what rp1 found I would likely be somewhat disappointed.
What is that saying? about making sausage? Something like -
Those that eat sausage would do better to not watch it being made?
Not sure that applies here but you get my drift _grin_
Regards
Which, of course, many cables have too. The question here is "Who's labor and who's R&D costs".
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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"JPS Labs appears to have done nothing out of the ordinary nor have they done anything that is far removed from standard business practices."I'm really having trouble thinking of other examples where there is such a substantial markup simply from repackinging.
But assume that your statement is correct. I think that for the sake of reasonable balance, one also would have to say that disseminating the kind of consumer information that Steve disclosed is very common also. There are countless consumer magazines, consumer website and consumer organizations dedicated to educating consumers as to what it is they are actually buying.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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"There are countless consumer magazines, consumer website and consumer organizations dedicated to educating consumers as to what it is they are actually buying."
Yes, this is true if it's a refrigerator or a washing machine you're buying. I know of nowhere we can find this kind of information for high end, especially the exotic world of cables.
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> > I'm really having trouble thinking of other examples where there is such a substantial markup simply from repackinging.Phil, you are naive. Look no further than your closest Radio Shack. All of those transistors and resistors and other components on their shelves carry a 70-80% margin. All they do is buy in bulk and package them. The rag business is even worse, sow on a label and raise the price 80% or more.
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I may be naive, and I'm also lazy. I'll buy something at Circle K at a huge markup just so I don't have to walk a few extra feet getting in and out of Safeway. That's my choice (be it informed or uninformed).I think of RS as the Circle K of electronics, except that there really isn't a Safeway of electronics that I know of where with just a little more effort I could go and buy the same things I can at RS for far less.
I think there's a difference in the kind of retailing that RS does as a RETAILER and the simple act of repackaging that JPS is apparently doing as a MANUFACTURER. Having said that, I am certainly aware that in almost all product areas, there are often huge mark-ups that are applied to products simply for carrying the brand name and that with A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE one can buy the same exact product for a mere fraction of the brand name price. I recently bought a new Yukon. For a mere 15K to 20K more I could have bought an Escalade.
But the key phrase is "A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE". It is the dissemination of that knowledge that I am attempting to defend and promote here.
Let's assume I'm horribly naive about things like RS. Would you begrudge someone who came along as you did and informed me of how much of a mark-up I'm actually paying. It would even be better if you told me where I could go so as not to pay that much of a mark-up. It is all information for a better consumed consumer base. That in my opinion is all Steve was doing - educating. Yet you and others seem to treat him as the devil incarnate. Do you feel the same way about all people who devote themselves to consumer education?
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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otherwise i total agree with you Phil.
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The reason I had not made a post previously on this subject is that I have very mixed feelings on this myself.I really am quite ambivalent on this thread - Which is unusual for me _big grin_
I do think it's healthy discussion and that balance within the thread is good.
I think that dissemination of information is virtually always a good thing.
Regards
Ken L
I've really been struggling a lot trying to decide whether or not I'm ambivalent about this thread.I know: trite, stupid, hackneyed, etc. - but it's Saturday morning and I just couldn't resist.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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the subject was just about dead, and problably would have faded to a restful oblivion, before you posted and that now there are 92 responses (as of this post) clarifying the position even more.This is the second time that has happened. Weird.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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it is sort of an interesting moral quandry.
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oh, maybe $70.00. I AM thinking about loaning out some when I get them to folks with the JPS cords to report on the sound difference, if any.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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..
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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First - a product is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.Second - we should be thankful when someone points out the error of our ways.
(Those Blue Notes sell for a $100 because someone is BUYING them.
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is definitely not for you"
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.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Yours was already taken
"If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is definitely not for you"
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'The cable with the same spec/configuration is not available as any other brand from any manufacturer' ..a simple statement like this from JPS would have cleared the air. But it looks like the JPS cable IS a stock cable. If this is confirmed, then this is really a SCANDAL.
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All of this "cover up" is very common in many industries.Take the clothing biz--I once heard a salesman in a fancy men's store order a blazer for a customer--did the customer want the one with the Ralph Lauren label for $500 or the one with the store label for $299.The coats came off the same mfg line and were,indeed,the same coat--want to try tires,appliances,cameras???Bob
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had a contract with one of the fruit juice packers in Watsonville. They packed for the big name brands and for the house brands. It turned out that the orange juice that was labeled fo the Alpha-beta stores was specced at a HIGHER quality than the name-brand stuff. The fruit sugar was higher, less water, and more actual fruit pulp. And better oranges went in.So just being built at the same factory means nothing. If JPS did order cables made for them at Eupen they could indeed be quite different. ("Better" here is a value call though...)
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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the writer of the JPS response mentioned he had little success selling product at a low price. Pathetic really when you think about it ... it's quite possible that at least some folks falling over themselves to demonstrate their indignation might just be partially responsible for price level in the first place.
audiophiles would never buy it if it was at an industrial price. We have been conditioned to believe (except the DIY guys, whose camp I should have stayed in) that all improvements in audio are supposed to be expensive.Perhaps Joe just came to the same realization that Wilson did; audio stuff sells better if it is hellishly expensive.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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But then again I suppose some might consider the bulk DH Labs BL1 outlandishly expensive - it's all relative!
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and Analysis Plus that contracts out. It is just that AP says so, they of course claim that its their design, but the stuff is made for them.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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(nt)
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nt
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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1) For those interested, they now aware that a $395.00 PC can be purchased for $30.00. This information of itself, is quite useful in my view.2) I suspect a bit more caution & scrutiny will be exrcised in the future by certain Audiophiles prior to dropping their credit cards on aggresively marketed high dollar cables.
I applaud those who have researched and had the guts to post this information so that some of us are able to make better informed decisions.
Personally, I use Voltex 14AWG and 18AWG shielded PCs and they are just fine. Cost is less than 10 bucks, each.
Cheers,
I think it is a statement that pumping price for cosmetic appeal is a statement of what condition the world is in now. Nike use slick commercials and high paid athletes to pump up the price of their shoes. Does this improve shoe performance? NO, but it makes money and that is what society worships today. It's all about image, not reality. Paying for non performing glitz is cool huh? Wish I could afford it. As Billy Crystal used to say on Saturday Night Live. It is better to look good than feel good. (Or something like that) Believe all commercial prose. Lying or putting spin is morally acceptble. NOT FOR ME.
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perhaps you should read the book, "Jennifer Government", a futuristic novel. In the future - marketing is everything so Nike wants to give some edge and street-cred to the launch of their new $100,000 tennis shoe. First, they tell the public it's in short supply, then leak out a few locations in shopping centers where it will be sold. Then they hire a couple of hit men to shoot a couple of the kids in line waiting to buy them. It works - sales of the shoe go through the roof because of all the danger now associated with them. Maybe cable manufacturers/repackagers should take a lesson from this...
Regards,
Mike
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But under the JPS skins, both THE DIGITAL AC and THE ANALOG AC cords are identical.Suppose I sold a line of specialized pain relievers for each different for type of pain. You went and bought several of bottles of these and paid significant money since no one else has this unique specialized pain reliever.
Then one day the bottle wrapper started to peeled off and you saw the Bayer label underneath…
"Bayer Aspirin"
"Bayer Baby Aspirin"
"Bayer Low Dose Aspirin"
"Bayer Arthritis Pain Relief"
"Bayer Sinus Headache Formula"
"Bayer Non-Aspirin"
"Bayer Knee Pain", etc.Check your drugstore shelf...it's already there. It's called "marketing" and "segmenting the market".
Regards,
Mike
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... the FDA would shut them down immediately. Some people are allergic to aspirin. Bad examples, since most of these products are indeed different formulations.
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…but fortunately the FDA is paying attention. For fun, visit some of the nutritional groups. Just substitute ""cable" for "supplement" and you'll think you're back at Asylum ;-)There are tales how greedy peddlers will take generic multi-vitamins and create phony products claiming unique health benefits for each product. And of course there are their defenders.
Also interesting and like the Asylum is the distrust of science and modern test methods in most of these groups (one I visited actually bans DBT discussions!). Like some here that claim their ears are such precise instruments they can HEAR whether or not the speaker cable is laying on the floor or the metal purity in their outlets, nutritionophiles also claim they can FEEL the details of every molecule in their supplements.
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I remember when all the pricey vitamin stuff started years ago, some news show did an investigation and concluded that some drug store generic brand that was the same formula as one-a-day, both cheap compared to what was out there (and still is even more so now) actually was the most effective in the sense that more of the actual vitamin was absorbed in the body and not pissed out or something. Even so, not a whole lot of it was absorbed, but more than the pricey stuff.
--Jack
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whilst total failing to prove anything in the audio arena.
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to the quantum fluctuations in my supplements. Thats why I use a Bybee Quantum Suppository every day!
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Bayer does in fact claim each are special and DIFFERENT formulas. If you ever find out they’re not, I’m sure the FDA and FTC would be interested in hearing about it!
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elements in the plug might be different. Only way I could know is dissection or sending it out to a lab for measurements. Both way too expensive.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Extrapolating further, I wouldn’t be surprised if that specialized THE VIDEO AC cord is also the exact cord as the other two.
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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"I don’t understand the surprise that a manufacturer uses sub-assemblies or pre-assembled parts from another manufacturer in the construction of their products, this happens in all industries."No argument there. But what makes the JPS cable different than what Eupen sells to anyone else for $30, other than the outer jacker that is put on the Eupen cable? Supposedly a different value for that whatever it is in the cable? Hell, maybe it is a different value so that JPS can legitimately claim they had a hand in the cables design. It may not sound much different than the OEM version they worked from. That has yet to be determined.
The thing is, THERE MAY BE A VERY GOOD POSSIBILITY THAT THERE EXISTS A DAMN GOOD POWER CABLE FOR AUDIO THAT IS EXTREMELY AFFORDABLE. If so, then I applaud rp1 and Steve for bringing it to our attention.
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
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But what makes the JPS cable different than what Eupen sells? Has anyone heard of the "placebo effect?" That's the difference.
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(nt)
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I'm not always comfortable with the MF thing, but you're one of my favorite audio writers.Good to see you hanging around here again.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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(nt)
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I really don't care much for MF, but if they pay the bills more power to them.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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(nt)
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Ring this for us when it's ready :o)
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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(No flames, please. I am an adherent.)Q: What does the Roman Catholic Church do when you fail to pay for an Exorcism?
(Answer below)
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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that someone can babble on endlessly about which $3500 power cord sounds best without once providing anything other than personal opinion, yet never once be accused of having "too much time" on his hands, but someone simply reports some facts and all of a sudden he's got "too much time" on his hands?Also, can anyone possible think of a more trite, over-used, unimaginative, uncreative, boorish put-down than accusing someone of having “too much time” on his hands?
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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with respect.......1. Very few people, - in my experience, - babble on endlessly...
2. Very few people buy, and there aren't even very many $3,500 power cables available, - (that's not to say that most or a few or any AC cables are overpriced or not).
3. There often IS a scientific explanation that is provided by the manufacturer about why their cable sounds better and/or the "science" involved in the manufacture or the "technical innovation." I agree that it is entirely another matter of whether or not ONE BELIEVES that it is good science or not.
4. Unfortunately, - our ability to hear varies with each individual, - and again, unfortunately, - our ears are one of the best and only tools for making judgements about the sound of a particular item.
5. There's nothing wrong with skepticism, and one should be skeptical. However, - because 1 manufacturer may or may not use "bad science," be deceptive, or produce products that don't live up to the hype, - does not mean that ALL manufacturers do not live up to the hype or are engaging in bad science, etc. etc. etc...
Peter:"There often IS a scientific explanation that is provided by the manufacturer about why their cable sounds better and/or the "science" involved in the manufacture or the "technical innovation." I agree that it is entirely another matter of whether or not ONE BELIEVES that it is good science or not."
There is often an "explanation". I have yet to see one that I would dignify with the adjective "scientific". Could you show me one such explanation.
That, BTW, is why I have such respect for Bob Crump. He doesn't try to come up with scientific explanations he can't substantiate. He sees cable manufacturing as an art. He has spent years trying different approaches, knows what works for him and believes it works good enough to succeed in the marketplace. I use his power cords on every piece of equipment in my dedicated 2-channel system, because I tried them and of the countless power cords that I have tried over the years they seemed to be head and shoulders above anything else I tried.
I did not do any kind of a blind test, because I really don't care why they improve my experience. All I care about is that they CLEARLY improved my own PERSONAL experience of MY OWN system in my own DEDICATED 2-CHANNEL SOUND ROOM - end of story for me. And, BTW I don't care if there is or isn't a scientific explanation for Bob's cords. That, as a consumer, is PERSONALLY irrelevant to me - all I care about is what make me happy and the experience I have whenever I replace a power cord with one of Bob's is a happier experience than the experience I had with the other power cord. Again, for me that is all that matters.
But as a person who takes pride in attempting to think rationally, when I read unsubstantiated claims that are couched in "scinetific" terminology, I am offended. It's just one of those things with me.
Moreover, there are consumers for whom a scientific explanation may be important. And if this type of consumer is being hood-winked with pseudo-scientific claims then I'm offended. Again, it's just one of those things with me.
"There's nothing wrong with skepticism, and one should be skeptical. However, - because 1 manufacturer may or may not use "bad science," be deceptive, or produce products that don't live up to the hype, - does not mean that ALL manufacturers do not live up to the hype or are engaging in bad science, etc. etc. etc..."
Yes, that is anxiomatic. Have I said anything that would even remotely suggest I would try to argue otherwise. I would never claim that one can accurately generalize from merely one example - regardless of what subject we were discussing.
As for the "babbling" and "$3500" power cords, I thought it was obvious that I was using poetic license or carricature. However, my point I believe is valid, and I will try to state that point more literally.
I have noticed that when someone like Steve posts information or an analysis that cannot be refuted fair and square, using logic and verifiable facts, that person often becomes the target of childish barbs such as "too much time" on his hands.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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Now, I could be mistaken here, and I certainly do not want to start some crap. But, didn't Bob once base his cables - at least his interconnects - on LAT cables and he basically put his "foo-foo" dust on them and called them HSR?Granted, it was great dust. As an owner of his products, I have been most satisfied.
What's the difference with JPS, Phil? Do you think Bob makes his own raw wires?
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Ian:"Now, I could be mistaken here, and I certainly do not want to start some crap. But, didn't Bob once base his cables - at least his interconnects - on LAT cables and he basically put his "foo-foo" dust on them and called them HSR?"
You may very well be correct.
"Granted, it was great dust. As an owner of his products, I have been most satisfied."
Me too.
"What's the difference with JPS, Phil? Do you think Bob makes his own raw wires?"
I don't see any difference. If someone were to provide the same information as to TG Audio as Steve did for JPS, you wouldn't hear a peep of criticism from me.
Then, the next time I wanted one of Bob's power cables I could either buy one directly from him because that might be the easiest and most convenient or I could choose to buy directly from his source.
But my mention of Bob was somewhat an aside, as I was responding to something Peter said about scientific claims. Let me try to summarize:
1. If someone makes a specific claim that that the use of their cable will result in better sonic performance than any, some or all other cables, I think they ought to have some scientifically based evidence (proper testing to control for bias) to support that claim - as I understand it, that's the law and I think that's the way it should be.
2. If someone claims that the use of their cable will result in better sonic performance than any, some or all cables because of a certain scientific doodad that is unique to their product, they should have to substantiate that claim. Again, as I understand it, that's the law and I think that's the way it should be.
3. No manufacturer should be immune from information being disseminated about his product and what it is made up of. That's just part of the deal if someone chooses to compete in an open, free marketplace. If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the solder pot.
4. From a personal standpoint, all I care about is my own personal experience. But that doesn't change the way I feel about #1, #2 and #3.
Again, as to Bob, I don't recall ever seeing him make any kind of a specific claim about his cables. I believe he merely tries to make cables that work the best for him and then is willing to let the marketplace judge for itself without a lot of mumbo jumbo eminating from a fertile imagination. If I'm wrong about Bob, then I'm wrong.
Any by the way, I won't necessarily refuse to buy from a cable company just because their claims seem a little goofy to me. About 2 years ago I tried some 20 to 30 different ICs and speaker cables. I ended up choosing, based solely on my own personal experience - and have been happy ever since. The claims or explanations of Sahuaro or any of the cables I rejected did not in any way enter into my choice.
But that's just me. Just because I happen to choose cables that way doesn't mean that everyone does. For those who rely in anyway upon the claims and explanations of cable companies, I maintain that the companies ought to be able to substantiate those claims and explanations. I don't know of a single company (including Sahuaro) that can.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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Bob Crump aka TG Audio's HSR power cables are nothing like LAT power cables in the least. Having said that, Bob is a "repackager", but makes no specific claims for his products other than you might like what they do for your system.As a side note, the cordage that Bob selected for his AC power cord has very specific electrical characteristics that you won't find in most other units on the market. This is true whether they are of proprietary manufacture or another "me too" cable repackager. If you ask Bob why he selected the design and materials used, he's not shy about telling you. His methods and viewpoints are all valid and have a lot of sound engineering practices ( no pun intended ) behind them. I'm not saying that these are the best power cords that you can buy or that they are worth hundreds upon hundreds of dollars, but that at least some of the "repackagers" have more valid products and reasoning behind what they sell than just offering something to bring money in the door.
One more thing. Bob may use "commonly available" parts in his HSR power cords, but he also performs some other "tweaks" to them. Whether or not you like these cords or they perform well in your system is obviously in the ear of the beerholder : ) Sean
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Well said.His power cords work for me. The fact that he's a hell of a nice guy is icing on the cake. It's guys like him that put a real human face on our hobby.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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And its forums like this (I'm new) where you find out about something like TG Audio whom I have never heard of and will now check out.
but I don't have enough time on my hands to do so.And it ain't no put-down, Phil. Jeez, relax. That cable thread was a joke. Any company has the right to outsource their core manufacturing and add some value with their own OEM recipes.
What gives this forum the right to question JPS w/o questioning every other manufacturer in this business who uses Dynaudio drivers or Sony transports as an example?
What gives this forum the right to question JPS w/o questioning every other manufacturer in this business who uses Dynaudio drivers or Sony transports as an example?This particular issue came up because an owner of the cords in question removed the heatshrink and pulled back the sleeving. So it's not as if someone just got up one day and decided they'd give JPS Labs some grief to the exclusion of every other manufacturer.
se
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speaker builder that uses Dynaduio or Sony drivers still has to design and outsource or build the box, it has to be finished etc. The arrangement of the drivers is up to the builder, as is the (rather expensive) design of the crossover (or, of course, he could just buy it wholesale from a filter expert). Still, there is a lot of the company's touch there.In the case of the JPS cable in question, if Herr Hienrich is correct, JPS added...nothing. Well, the beauty wrap does count for something....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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"What gives this forum the right to question JPS w/o questioning every other manufacturer in this business who uses Dynaudio drivers or Sony transports as an example?"I don't recall suggesting that JPS was the only manufacturer about which factual information should be posted or discussed.
Seems to me you want to keep all audio products shrouded in mystery. Good for the Middle Ages - not good for the 21st Century.
"Chill out"? I live in Phoenix and you're about 2-months too early with that "trite-ism".
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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The only conspiracy theorists I can detect around here are the ones who seem wholly incapable of distinguishing factual reporting from a claim of conspiracy.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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The only thing Steve did was report facts. You have created a stawman to attack by reading all kinds of your own inuendos and assumptions into what he reported.Is there something special about the cable industry that renders it immune from the type of information Steve posted? I can think of no other product where such basic information would not be considered routine or helpful to consumers.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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... and Steve is educating us. i see nothing wrong with what he's doing.I'm willing to ignore whether JPS's advertising claims are ethical and go straight to the crux of the matter. By "taking advantage of their customers' lack of knowledge" I simply mean this: JPS is aware of a company in Belgium that makes a certain power cord that is, apparently, beneficial for audiophile use. The Belgium supplier is not exploiting the market themselves. JPS is taking this product, making it cosmetically more "presentable" for its new use, and bringing it to the attention of the audiophile market. They are pricing the product in line with what other audiophile power cords with similar (presumed) benefits sell for and making a handsome profit. This is capitalism. JPS Labs is not a charity that is required to provide benefits to consumers for free.
However, once this fact is discovered, no one is under any obligation to protect JPS's little secret. No one is doing anything wrong here by pointing out that JPS is making a profit off of their customers' ignorance. In my mind, this isn't a legal or moral problem - simply a case of raising consumer awareness. And I think that's a good thing.
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if you go to the grocery store, you can find "Clorox" brand liquid bleach, which is nothing more than a dilute solution of sodium hypochlorite.Right next to that, you can buy the "house brand" liquid bleach, which is the exact same thing, for less . . . But people must still buy "Clorox" or else the company wouldn't stay in business.
It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model. In reality, the only thing that you buy on a cost-based pricing model is something from a rate-regulated public utility, like your local power company. Everything else is sold on market-based pricing -- which is the price at which the seller is able to realize a sufficient volume of sales to meet its expectations for a return on its investment (and, of course, recovery of its costs). Assuming, for purposes of this discussion, that JPS's Digital AC power cord is nothing more than a stock Eupen cord with nylon wrapping, the price difference between the two (whatever that is) simply reflects the value of information.
Turning to another product market (cars), I would ask all of you Lexus ES300 owners, is your Lexus really worth the price premium over the Toyota Camry (which is what the ES 300 is, with some cosmetic differences)? Do you feel "ripped off" knowing that your Lexus is really a Toyota in fancy dress? Would you like to know whether additional cost built into the Lexus (for a nicer interior or whatever) is proportionately recognized in its higher sale price. Put differently, would you be pissed to know that Toyota makes 100% return on its incremental investment in upgrading a Camry to a Lexus (i.e. $3,000 in additional costs supports a $6,000 price difference [speaking hypothetically])?
The most useful piece of information I have gleaned from all of this is that I wouldn't want the Eupen cord (or the JPS Cord if it's the same as the Eupen) in my system, now that I see how its filter is wired, because I use balanced power. I doubt that the designers of either cord intended for both the "hot" and "neutral" conductors to be energized, which is what they will be with balanced power. It might be nice if JPS gave its customers a "heads-up" in that regard, since that would apply to everyone who uses a balanced isolation transformer, or, I believe, a PS Audio powerplant. But maybe that's what dealers are for!! ;-)
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"It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model."I don't know who those "people" are, but I hope you're not including me.
In a free market, products sell based on what people are willing to pay for them. Sometime stiff competition keeps retail price relatively in line with cost, but there are many things (including effective marketing or barriers to entry) that can skew that relationship, and there is often nothing wrong with that.
BUT, if you are going to have a truly free, open market (which as a Barry Goldwater Conservative, I believe in), then consumer education and information has to be part of the equation. There is no justification I can think of for protecting manufacturers from people disclosing the type of information that Steve disclosed about the JPS cables. An informed consumer base keeps markets truly competitive and efficient - which as I understand it is the core justification for capitalism.
The greatest amount of wealth for the greatest number of people will be created when the market is the most efficient. Efforts to artificially stem globalization and foreign outsourcing are bound to fail in the long run, as these efforts will only foster inefficiency and thwart innovation - factors that are sure to make it more difficult for many people to climb out of poverty and ensure stagnation amoung the fortunate few who have already escaped its grasp.
The people in this discussion who seem to want to censor dissemination of legitimate consumer information remind me of those who oppose globalization - they may protect some cable company in the short run, but in the end if they succeed in thwarting and discouraging people like Steve, there will be little incentive for true innovation as the means of disseminating the type of information that rewards true inovation will have withered. Marketing and packaging will be all that matters. That would be the greatest disservice of all to audiophile consumers.
'66
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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"people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model. In reality, the only thing that you buy on a cost-based pricing model is something from a rate-regulated public utility, like your local power company."It's an excellent point (although your analogy about a rate regulated utility is incorrect - how could it be cost based if it's regulated? - regulation brings neither cost based nor market, it generally brings 'what most people can afford without political consequences') - I wonder if those participating in this pile-on actually appreciate that virtually nothing in consumer products is priced based on a cost multiple, nor do they realize how few real manufacturers there are and that they pay for the brand in hundreds of other products they buy.
Some years ago I was in Hong Kong and visited, by invitation, a very large garment plant whose entire production was exported to western markets. After the obligatory tour, the owner asked me if I would like a few shirts to take home, I said sure, he then asked what brand I would prefer - Calvin Klein, Armani, Ralph Lauren, Lacoste, actually the names and labels were much higher end and all Italian - and the actual labels said Made In Italy. When you are buying that Valentino suit that is made in Italy, you are often buying a product made in one of those generic Asian factories and the markup to the retailer is purely based on what the BRAND - not the product - can attract.
The Audio market is no different, why are people not complaining that their $5000 speakers use $100 worth of common Seas drivers and some veneered MDF?
"would you be pissed to know that Toyota makes 100% return on its incremental investment in upgrading a Camry to a Lexus (i.e. $3,000 in additional costs supports a $6,000 price difference [speaking hypothetically])?"
Being in the marketing business and having done tons of automotive research, I can tell you that Lexus customers (any such high end brand, actually) when told that will always say they are not upset in the least and are still perfectly satisfied with their Lexus. Why? They were already aware, conciously or subconciously, that they were paying a premium for the brand and it's exclusivity that came from it's premium price - in fact, they sought out the premium price specifically so they could obtain the intangible the higher price tag provides, and not for any tangible product attributes.
I suggest that audio is no different, or maybe, it is even more a case where buyers are paying for brand and intangibles, so the case of the JPS cable being bandied about here is rather silly, what did people think was happening anyways, and don't they realize this is prevalent throughout their equipment?
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All true in the automotive world. But in the automotive world I can research anything, and make an informed decision. There are plenty of places to find this information. The places we should be finding about high end audio are the main publications, Stereophile, TAS etc.
Unfortunately, they are not the ones that brought this to our attention. It is one of our own, and for this they deserve reward, not flames
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And my favorite audio writer of all time (being serious) bought the JPS labs digital AC cord after reviewing it in Stereophile. So the damn thing probably sounds good, as it did to rp1. Since Mr. Dudley hadn't decided whether to buy one for a lingo power supply, since he hadn't decided whether to buy a lingo power supply yet, if he does, and he has read these posts, will he buy the JPS cord, or 5 eupen cords for $150?There is no doubt in my mind that the cord does something right for digital equipment that needs it. I've been watching this thread from the beginning, and it never started about pricing, it started as a post about what someone saw, and a post about the deletion of that original post. Not whether the cable sounded good enough to spend $350 on. I'm not going to comment on all the really bad economic arguments strewn about. I am going to say that information is a good thing for consumers and producers and the economy as a whole, and in my short time visiting this forum, it seems to be a good place to share information and thus become more educated.
--Jack
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I wont metion
Manchester United shirts $3 in thialand, £40 ($70) in UK.
the rag trade has always done that, but then it has to fund the annual round of international fashon shows and supermodels at +$20k /day.
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and, I would add, with respect to the Lexus, that, in the US at least, the "dealer experience" at a Lexus dealership is (I am told) far superior to the dealer experience at a Toyota dealership, with regard to service, maintenance, etc. So people are paying for that, too; and it's not an intangbile like "brand prestige" etc.As a sometime regulatory lawyer, I can tell you that "cost-of-service" regulation derives a price from inputs' costs and "cost of capital" used to deliver the product or service. One of the big arguments against such regulation is that it contains no incentives for efficiencies. To the extent that politics comes into the game (and it does, to be sure), it is usually to depress prices, not raise them. Unfortunately, any experienced regulated business knows how to "game the system" and make money, no matter what.
It seems to me that a lot of the heat here is because people assume that everything is -- or should be -- sold on a cost-based pricing model.My concerns in this matter have had absolutely nothing to do with price.
For me it all has had to do with the deletion of rpl's original post on Cable Asylum.
Rpl removed the heatshrink and pulled back the sleeving of his JPS Labs power cord which revealed what by all outward appearances was a stock Eupen power cord.
Rpl posted this on Cable Asylum adding that Eupen power cords could be had for considerably less than the $350 asked for the JPS power cord.
Rpl's post was subsequently deleted at the request of JPS Labs based on their still unsubstantiated claim that the Eupen power cord under the sleeving is not a stock Eupen power cord.
I don't believe that rpl's post warranted deletion. And that's the issue I brought up here on General Asylum.
The whole issue of pricing that some keep bringing up is nothing more than a red herring.
se
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If you have a complaint about moderation, that's for the "support" forum or Whiners' Woad. ;-)I was not attacking either you or rpl; sorry you took it that way.
But since you raised the issue, none of this makes any sense without reference to price or "value," a point that rpl apparently agrees with.
Do you seriously contend that the volume of the discussion here would have been the same, if the price of the Eupen and JPS cords had been the same? I doubt it.
If JPS Labs takes a European-sourced cord, re-brands it and spends the effort to market that product here in the US, then there's value added, whether you wish to recognize it or not.
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If you have a complaint about moderation, that's for the "support" forum or Whiners' Woad. ;-)Ok. I'll go there and complain that the moderators didn't move my original post there. :)
I was not attacking either you or rpl; sorry you took it that way.
I didn't take it that way. Sorry you took that I took it that way. :)
It was the others I was refering to and I was just reiterating that my issue here has absolutely nothing to do with price.
But since you raised the issue, none of this makes any sense without reference to price or "value," a point that rpl apparently agrees with.
Depends on what the "this" is that you're referring to. If the "this" is all the various posts regarding JPS Labs, certainly much of it doesn't make any sense without reference to price or "value," but since I'm the one who started the "this" here in General (which I did only because I'm still banned on Cable Asylum and couldn't address it there, where this ultimately all started), I'd like to think the non-price/value issues I raised made some sense. :)
Do you seriously contend that the volume of the discussion here would have been the same, if the price of the Eupen and JPS cords had been the same? I doubt it.
Perhaps not. But by the same token, would the volume of discussion here been the same if so many people had not taken what I had originally posted which had nothing to dowith price/value and twisted it into a price/value issue?
If JPS Labs takes a European-sourced cord, re-brands it and spends the effort to market that product here in the US, then there's value added, whether you wish to recognize it or not.
It's not a matter of whether I wish to recognize that or not. It's that it's wholly irrelevant to anything I have said on the matter and that which I have taken issue with.
Again, what I took issue with was rpl's original post on Cable Asylum having been deleted.
se
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is, is the value added worth the price?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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and I posted to let folk, especially the DIY guys, know what I found and that there were alternatives and . (I don't think that there is a home recipe yet for ferrite lined cords...)I don't for a moment believe that it will make any difference at all to those folk that only buy on the recommendation of reviewers or dealers. (A class that I was apparently in for a while; at the very least once.)
And, oh yeah, I was pissed off!
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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than stellar results from the Exact Power unit?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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I don't think the Exactpower unit generates balanced power, but who knows what other reasons there might be.
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.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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and JPS rode (and presumably will still ride) the gravy-train with this product. Good for them. Now, at least, some folks (not many, but some) will know that there is an identical alternative that costs an order of magnitude less.Darn, but I wish I could think of profits in the order-of-magnitude range.....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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It has yet to be proven that the cords are IDENTICAL. They do appeard to be very similar. To similar.Even if the JPS is technically different, this could be one of those 98% of the performance for 10$ of the cost deals. Gee, did I say that elsewhere? Aw hell, let's kick the shit out of this horse some more!
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
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Couldn't agree more.When I go to supermarket, I see their store ripping off a big bag of frozen prawns, repackaging using their own label, selling for triple the price.
Plenty of T-shirts or jeans come from the same factory, stores like on their own label and selling for several times the price.
Red Rose buys the amps from Kursan, do they really modify them? who knows.
Examples can go on and on. This is free world business.
Paul Lam
P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc.
Free world business... with a few rules to respect though!
In the case of T-shirts and jeans, no new unverifiable claims and product attributes are being made... The story is different for cable manufacturers. For some, the word ethical is not in their dictionary. For most of them, it is hard to classify them in the copper cable business or in the plastic business.
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And would you like to ban all consumer magazines that point such things out? Does your own business depend upon uninformed consumers?
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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A few courses, then maybe you'll begin to understand the issues.
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and also, I seriously doubt that anything in a super-market gets a 300% markup. They, like other true mass-market guys, go on small margin and large turnover.Hmmm...maybe the tools and magazines perhaps....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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and are covering the trim with the wall paint..Has Steve stated that he has uncovered a plot? Or has he simply done a little legwork to enlighten all?
I've not seen a post of his that is as you have stated. Would you please point to one where he does?
As for rp1....I can understand his displeasure...had I disassembled a 300 dollar (or more, or less for that matter) cord, to find out I could have gotten it for 10% of the cost, I'd be rather peeved also. I'm not sure I would have handled it with the same wording, but I have not been in the situation.
On JPS website, the closest I found to "we make it" was JPS Labs produces the World's first and only specialty AC power cords . This does not state that they make all their cords. And I found no reference to them having made the digital one..just reference to how it was engineered, again, without stating who did that. And no statement as to which ones they actually get their hands dirty on...
Tkheem: "" we don’t manufacture our own paint, we don’t build our own tools, I personally only do a small percentage of the labor on our jobs""
But if, in your advertising, you imply that you do all those things, especially by elaborating on how the paint formulation has been engineered from the pigment, through the solvents, and special additives, and then showing up on the job with paint cans labelled as your own brand...and then charging them 300 dollars a can for that special paint...then a customer removes the label, only to find Sherman Williams underneath..Hmmmm..
In reviewing the JPS marketing copy, they certainly do imply that they are the ones to have engineered their digital cable...if they only repackage, then they certainly did not....
Then the question is farther reaching...how many cable manu's out there do this?
How many provide value added?
Is a 1000% markup reasonable, if they indeed purchase the Eupen's?
Cheers, John
> > Is a 1000% markup reasonable, if they indeed purchase the Eupen's?I am so sick of this idiotic garbage. Everyone is guessing and making ASSumptions. JPS asserts that they spec the cable and that it is NOT a stock cable. It is manufactured per their spec.
But even if we ASSume that the cable is stock and costs $30 in Europe, you still have to add shipping, duties, packaging and JPS labor to brand and package. Landed cost, ready to ship to a dealer is more likely closer to $40 with these extras. Dealer cost is around $175. That's a 77% margin. Considering that typical margins for a manufacturer have to be in the 40-60% range at a minimum to stay in business, it isn't overly high for an accessory product.
If you guys want to bitch, look at phono cartridges. Some cost several thousand dollars and surely have no more cost of goods than a $100 one.
==========I am so sick of this idiotic garbage.==========No doubt! Is getting kind of old...
And to think that NONE of this would have ended up here on "General" if you guys hadn't deleted rp1's post over on "Cables".
the decision(s) to ban and/or delete were shortsighted and selfserving. But we don't own the playground do we? (-:Cheers!
ps - Steve, have you noticed those blindly supporting (believing) JPS and ignorning the FACTS are mostly reviewers, moderators etc.? They think they are "supporting" the industry but are in fact reinforcing the notion that it is a ripoff, which I don't generally believe to be true.
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All of the above...Big headache for the industry folks and the Bored. These things take on a life of their own, and the more you try to stop them the more people decide to add their 2 cents;-)
Tubes Asylum was taken over recently with a spat of posts involving Ebay sellers and gold-plated pins on tubes that never were made that way. Ebay fraud is a huge issue with folks that buy and sell NOS tubes, and as the NOS supply dwindles, guess what? Only gonna' get worse.
I suspect the Bored is sensitive to the fact that there is a risk of the various boards becoming the primary outlet for peoples frustrations. But, its hard to stamp out, especially as the cable industry deserves a lot of the flak they are getting.
In this case, one deleted post and look what we got.
And to think that NONE of this would have ended up here on "General" if you guys hadn't deleted rp1's post over on "Cables".No no, that should read:
And to think that NONE of this would have ended up here on "General" if you guys hadn't banned Steve Eddy over on "Cables."
The ONLY reason I made my original post here on General which is what started all of this here is because I COULDN'T post it on Cable Asylum.
se
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After all the bandwidth you've wasted here on this subject, I kinda' understand why you were banned over at Cables;-)But, if they hadn't deleted rp1's post on Cables, you would have had no reason to drag this issue ANYWHERE.
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JPS asserts no such thing in their response to this controversy. Their long-winded response uses weasel words that might suggest this depending on how you choose to read (or rather, misread) their statement.If JPS could legitimately deny the assertation by Steve and rpl that their Digital AC power cord is an unaltered (except for the cosmetic "beauty wrap") stock Eupen power cable available to anyone for $30, don't you think they would deny it in the most forceful terms possible? I suggest you read their response again, and treat it with the skepticism it deserves.
I'll bet that the dealer cost is only $150, and moreover that bulk purchases earn even greater discounts. The dealer has to have these margins to negotiate with ever-more-demanding-huge-discounts customers.So, say his landed cost *is* $40. Now let's talk overhead, capitalization, plant, rent, workers' comp, insurance (employee and product, the latter being significant for AC cords), UL approval (if any), advertising, more advertising, free review samples that never come back, losses on products that don't move, absolutely ZILCH ECONOMY OF SCALE -- and you're looking at a heftier price than the OEM guys can *ever* ask.
Not only that, one formerly very prominent manufacturer was exposed for using an off-brand romex, sheathing it in trademark clothing, affixing (high-quality) terminations and selling it for $1600!
Finally, a disclaimer, twice I have met Joe Skubinsky and he's a great guy.
If the 5 off price for anyone is $30 each I suspect the wholesale volume price is half that. The manufacturer doesn't even know JPS so they most obviously buy it from the US subsidary.
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What if you found out that somebody like Benz was selling two different types of $1000 phono cartridges that they supposedly developed through extensive research and engineering, and they both turned out to be the same $75 OEM Technics cartridge painted in two different colors. What's wrong with posting this kind of information on AA so that other audiophile consumers are aware of what they're buying?I know rpl and SE are milking this for all they can get, but they did contribute some worthwhile product research.
male.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Rod M: ""I am so sick of this idiotic garbage. Everyone is guessing and making ASSumptions.""I make the assumption that as the owner of this forum, you feel that you are free to, by the use of the mis-capilalized word ASS umtions, and ASS ume, imply that I (you posted this invictive under me) an am ASS.
I of course, expect an apology from you for your misguided use of the english language, and I certainly expect that you will refrain from doing so in the future. And, I expect you to refrain from that type of invective, you should have enough of a command of the English language that you do not have to resort to lowering yourself to that level.
As to math? You make the assumption (note I have not capitalized the first three letters of that word) that I was speaking of the ratio of JPS's cost and what they sell for..I was not. I was pointing out the ratio of buying the Eupec and the JPS.
So, I am quite politely pointing out the error of your assumption.
Rod: ""JPS asserts that they spec the cable and that it is NOT a stock cable. It is manufactured per their spec.
You have re-stated that which I have already assumed and stated.
Rod: ""But even if we ASSume that the cable is stock and costs $30 in Europe, you still have to add shipping, duties, packaging and JPS labor to brand and package. Landed cost, ready to ship to a dealer is more likely closer to $40 with these extras. Dealer cost is around $175. That's a 77% margin. Considering that typical margins for a manufacturer have to be in the 40-60% range at a minimum to stay in business, it isn't overly high for an accessory product.
You stated landed cost is 40 dollars..how is that suddenly 175? Dealer cost from your example is 40 dollars..Perhaps you meant 175 is the loaded cost, including warehouse and purchasing overhead?
If you had bothered to do your homework, you would have found that I have stated several times on your forums, that I have worked in manufacturing, where material cost is typically 5 to 10% of selling price, with occasions where 2 to 3% is actual. I can forgive that particular transgression, as I could not imagine you personally reading every post in the forums..
Your post surprised me..I expect better from you.
Cheers, John
Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out, but Im getting rather tired of the rehashing of the same old ground by a lot of people that are using mostly assumptions and assumptions that are likely not correct.> > You stated landed cost is 40 dollars..how is that suddenly 175? Dealer cost from your example is 40 dollars..Perhaps you meant 175 is the loaded cost, including warehouse and purchasing overhead?
JPS sells through dealers. The product retails for $349, I believe, and people have made assumptions of their profit based on that price. In reality, their price is what the dealer pays, usually 50% or less of the retail price or around $175. I said was simple, JPS's landed cost is around $40 with an ASP of $175 to the dealer. But you're right, warehusing and other overhead would also increase their real cost which is what irritates me the most. Since no one knows their real cost, all of this is simly speculation.
As I see it the point is: If you knew JPS power chords were stock Eupen which can be bought for $30 each (lot of 5), would you like to spend an additional $369 to get the JPS name on it?A number of people have pointed out the fact that many companies charge large premiums for their branding of essentially generic items, be it cars, suits, wire, whatever. Perhaps some are lame enough to KNOWINGLY pay that premium for some sort of snob appeal. Many, including me, would not. Faced with a choice of the same suit for $30 or one for $395 with some "designer's" label, what would you do?
I do not blame JPS for anything, even assuming their wire IS virtually the same as stock Eupen. But so far, considering the info I've read -- including JPS's response -- if I wanted the JPS "sound" in my system I'd buy the Eupen. THAT is the point, and pending some possible further response from JPS or Eupen, I think rpl and Steve Eddy have been helpful to us.
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Rod..: ""Sorry, I didn't mean to single you out""Accepted on the assumption that your statement contained two ideas. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was unaware there were dealers involved, which certainly does add to the final cost.
It can be sticker shock to some to find out how little money you can spend when building it yourself, vs having someone else do it, even with the economy of scale.
I'm glad I build my own speakers and cables for that reason.
Rod: ""Since no one knows their real cost, all of this is simly speculation""
Was that simply, or slimy? :-)
We don't have to. 40 to 175 is going to be a reasonable markup...and so is 175 to 350.
Good thing this is not a forum on military electronic hardware...especially the RAD hard flight stuff..
"I am so sick of this idiotic garbage."I see. So AA exists to protect all manufacturers from dissemination of information that could be useful to consumers?
It seems it's ok for you to cite assumptions that you believe are important, but not ok for actual facts to be cited on this board.
In addition, your comments entirely overlook the issue around deceptive advertising that people have been discussing - cost (even your very biased assumptions of cost) is only one element of this discussion.
Who are you really trying to serve, Rod?
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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I find the recent threads on cable manufacturing troubling. I don’t understand the surprise that a manufacturer uses sub-assemblies or pre-assembled parts from another manufacturer in the construction of their products, this happens in all industries. I work in the painting and wallcovering service business; we don’t manufacture our own paint, we don’t build our own tools, I personally only do a small percentage of the labor on our jobs, when we’re busy we must subcontract to qualified contractors, the best I can possibly do is control the quality of each job, yet my name goes on every job we do.But that's not the issue here.
Certainly manufacturers routinely use parts and components made by other manufacturers and assemble them into their own complete unique products.
What's at issue here is whether or not someone is taking someone else's complete unique product, disguising its identity, claiming it to be their complete unique product, and then selling it at a price significantly greater than the original product otherwise sells for.
Let's say I go to Sears and buy a bunch of their Easy Living paint off the shelf for say $15 a gallon. I then take those gallons of paint and cover up the label with my own label. I then market this paint as my own, claiming it to be my own unique formulation resulting from years of research and development. I then sell this paint for $150 a gallon.
You decide to try this paint. It works well for you and you feel that it was worth the $150 a gallon.
Then one day while you're cleaning up, you notice that a corner of the label is starting to peel off and you see what appears to be another label under it. You peel off the top label and find a Sears Easy Living paint label underneath it.
I'm curious what your reaction would be. And how would you feel about others who had the same experience and posted it on Paint Asylum?
se
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We have an ongoing relationship with the manufactures of the products we use, Benjamin Moore, Valspar, Graham, etc. There is a network of people starting from the salesman behind the counter to the chemist at the factory we rely on in determining what's happening when things change. And materials do change; they can vary from batch to batch, a manufacture can produce a bad batch, or they can simply decide to tweak the formula without giving notice.If a product did stop performing for us as expected, and I suspected it was being substituted for a lesser line or brand, yes I would be right back at the store with that material, it would go back to the distributor then the factory and we would determine exactly what was going on. Now this is where you and I part company; I would never post speculation on a public forum or any where else for that matter until I had all the facts. If it was determined that the manufacturer had substituted products, they would need to make restitution for any re-finishing required to bring the job up to original specifications. I could not make accusations against a manufacturer by bringing up an incident of this nature to others in my field until I had hard evidence that I felt was strong enough to stand up in a court of law.
This is the point I would like to make clear; you do not possess all the facts in the case of this cable. You have not done nearly enough homework to go public with an accusation as you have. Most everything you have written here is based purely on speculation. When you decide to conduct yourself as a professional and have both cables in hand, the JPS and Eupen, and can prove beyond a doubt that they are the same cord; then you may come and talk to me.
Take Care,
Kevin
This is the point I would like to make clear; you do not possess all the facts in the case of this cable. You have not done nearly enough homework to go public with an accusation as you have.Excuse me? What accusation are you referring to? Can you please quote this accusatoin you accuse me of making?
se
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An attempt to persuade us that you have been a neutral party in this affair and weasel out of this mess by saying “well that’s not really what I was implying”. This whole ordeal has been an accusation that JPS uses a completely stock Eupen assembly and simply dresses it up with an outer sleeve. I could post multiple quotes made by you in support of this accusation. You should understand this by now, you started us down this road, you're the leader. Are you going to see this thing through to its conclusion? Are you going to determine for a fact whether the two are identical by comparing them side by side? Are you or are you not a professional in this industry?Take Care,
Kevin
"I could post multiple quotes made by you in support of this accusation."
...here are some quotes from posts made by Steve Eddy. It's actually quite easy to look them up as there is a very good search tool available here. When I listed the number of posts made by Steve and rpl in my original post I certainly didn't go through and count them by hand."Recently on Cable Asylum, rpl reported that when he removed the heatshrink and pulled back the woven sleeving covering on his $395 power cord from JPS Labs, it revealed a power cable manufactured by Eupen, and bore a standard Eupen part number."
"Yes, I am biased. I'm biased against fraud and deceit. I'd like to think everyone is. And I feel that rpl raises some legitimate concerns along those lines with regard to JPS Labs."
"If indeed JPS Labs' Digital AC/Analog AC/Video AC power cords are nothing more than stock Eupen cords dressed up in heatshrink and some Techflex, then JPS Labs' claims are intentionally deceiving consumers and that in my opinion is nothing less than fraud."
"What's at issue here is whether or not someone is taking someone else's complete unique product, disguising its identity, claiming it to be their complete unique product, and then selling it at a price significantly greater than the original product otherwise sells for.”
Look, my intention is not to pick a fight with Steve Eddy, or any one else. But people have been writing about this ordeal as if it were some good consumer information based on fact. If Consumer Report Magazine thought the Honda Accord was a repackaged Toyota Camry, they wouldn’t drive by a dealership and make their observations from the road; they would actually get both cars, disassemble them and see if they were a match part for part. If what Steve is implying about the JPS cable is in fact true, I'll be just as disappointed as anyone else, but I'm not willing to make any assumptions until I have all the facts, and neither should anyone else. There has been a lot of talk that manufactures should be more professional and held to higher standards in their conduct; why shouldn’t we be held to those same standards? Maybe as a collective group we could actually lead by example, instead of making assumptions and firing off like loose cannons.
...promote it's acoustically superior properties and "dramatic" improvements to my listening experience. Then I'd sell it to the same sucker that bought the $3000 power cord and hope to God I did a better job of gluing on my label.
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Hilarious! But, so true.....
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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You again said it better than I..Curse you, Red Baron..
and with all due respect to my fellow inmates here, there was no need
for all of this. The market is open and people are free to buy what they want. Nothing is really hidden and no one is trying to bend anybody's arm to buy anything..Live and let live..AP
"Nothing is really hidden "except a eupen cable underneath some nylon.
The point here isn't about the price of a cable. What nobody here has said is this: pricing is not about supply, it's about supply and demand...Marshall cleared this up long long ago. If it sounds $350 good to you given your budget constraint, then buy it. If it sounds $1000 good to you, and you bought it for $350, then you profited.
The point here is borders on false advertising. If you read their website a couple days ago, it said, "try any of our hand made cables...". Now to be fair, they didn't say ALL their cables are handmade. So in retrospect, you could just not try the ones that are not handmade, or try them anyway even though they didn't ask you to, but which were those? Well now we know. ( In the JPS response they indicated two) but even they must have thought that a reasonable person would (wrongly) infer that all their cables are handmade, because it is not on their website anymore! And no I can't go back in time to prove it. Unless I open a Eupen cord and find a JPS cord "hiding" underneath and as rp1 points out, the space-time continuum rips to shreds.
--Jack
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that now we all have to dissect all the cables before we buy them and see if we are being mislead, taken advantage of or ripped off:-)As valid as Steve's original post is, I still can't condemn JPS before actually sonically comparing an identical sample of each.
If JPS had nothing to do with these cables except repackaging and reselling them, then both samples 'should ' be sonically identical.
AP
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that since the beginning of this controversy the "anger" has been about possible false advertising. Lots of people jumped on the cost issue, but that is not what started all this. That's all I meant.Let's get some Eupen cords and meet up. rp1, can we have a power cord death match at your place if we all go in on some eupen cables?
:)
Let's have a death cable showdown at the Pyramids here :-)
.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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"Nothing is really hidden..."Oh really? Then please show me where the information Steve posted has heretofore been readily available to consumers. Or by "nothing...hidden", do you mean that I'm free to pay $350 for a cable, and then void my warranty or return privilege by cutting it open to learn the truth?
"The market is open and people are free to buy what they want."
Gee, I somehow always assumed that free dissemination of information was an integral part of an "open" market.
Also, can you please point to where Steve even hinted that he believed people should not be "free to buy what they want..."
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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Please see my answer to Hafdef..I am not defending JPS or anybody else. All I am saying is that Kevin is right in what he said and that
as long as the 'final' JPS product 'sounds' different to a similar run of a EUPEN cable, then JPS is doing nothing wrong, in my book.
"All I am saying is that Kevin is right in what he said and that
as long as the 'final' JPS product 'sounds' different to a similar run of a EUPEN cable, then JPS is doing nothing wrong, in my book."Of course, we don't have a clue as to whether it actually sounds different because it would seem that there are no reported tests run under proper control conditions to establish that. But that's another story.
The focus here it seems to me is not whether JPS is doing anything wrong. Most of the "energy" of the posters has been focused on accusing Steve of doing something wrong simply because he posted some facts. He's even been accused of "milking" this for all its worth.
And Rod gets "sick" at people like Steve and jneutron who simply stick with the facts! PATHETIC.
____________________"To dance beneath the diamond sky with one hand waving free."
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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With apologies to Monty Python:
I think that would have been the best route to take before firing all those WMD's..:-)
Herr Heinrich's description, and his assertion that they do no OEM work for JPS, and that the numbers on the plug-ends match their data-base, well then I am going to assume they are the exact same cord.I will say that the Analog and the Digital cords sound the same; no one could tell which one was where in the circuit.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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I'd hate to have to work with three distinctly different products that had identical outward appearances. What if some careless employee dumped a batch of one into the bin for another?se
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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"The market is open and people are free to buy what they want"Not true, but the issue has absolutely nothing to do with someones right to purchase a product.
"Nothing is really hidden and no one is trying to bend anybody's arm to buy anything"
Not true, I'm not sure about New Zealand but in North America there a laws which protect buyers from sellers who materially mislead, misrepresent or deceive in advertising. Whether through omission of material facts or misrepresenation of same the intent is to HIDE the truth of material fact the end result being a bending arms sort of speak to gain a sale.
As I see it, you hear a 'JPS' Cable, you maybe compare it to another brand, you like the JPS in your set-up and you end up buying it.The same goes for any other brand of cables. I don't think JPS misleads anybody here. What they use as raw materials is up to them even if they source it very cheap from some one. What I do believe
is that JPS still do some design work of their own in the cable and have the right to price it at the end accordingly as how they see fit. Most cable manufacturers do this, they source out the raw materials, do some of their own designing and tweaking, repackage the whole thing and offer it for sale. This is fair practice in my opinion.But, if they just source the raw wire, repackage and then just resell without having done any of their own geometry, shielding etc..etc.., this would be a fraudulent act for sure and they should be held liable for whatever the law would indict.
That's what I meant in my post. Another question remains here, are cable manufacturers so naive to actually do their business as such ? I doubt very much.
AP
"But, if they just source the raw wire, repackage and then just resell without having done any of their own geometry, shielding etc..etc.., this would be a fraudulent act for sure and they should be held liable for whatever the law would indict"Actually no, in my opinion, that is not fraud. If, however, they advertised that.
1/ They have exclusive expertise in the field
2/ Their expertise enables them to design a superior product
3/ Their expertise enables them to hand fabricate superior products
4/ Their expertise ensures the final product embodies the attributes you'd expect to pay premium for.
5/ The price and function of the product fairly reflects this exclusive expertise.If the above conditions are met and if their final product in reality was created independent of the above expertise and available for a remarkably lower price elsewhere, then it's my belief that meets the conditions of mis-leading or deceptive advertising practises.
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You would never see this or even be aware of it unless you actually compare them sonically. This is what will put this whole epic to rest..(positively or negatively), IMHO. Is there any other way to determine this ?
"You would never see this or even be aware of it unless you actually compare them sonically"Maybe, maybe not.
"This is what will put this whole epic to rest"
objective information are willing to accept subjective opinion from the same person. Mind boggling.
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Without a listening comparison, you cannot reach a final decision, no matter what I or anybody else says here. I respect all the views said here but I really can't agree to condemn JPS based on just a printed serial number or whatever else for that matter.FWIW, I have never heard JPS cables and have no hidden issues in defending or not defending them.
One thing I do know and this is not a secret to anyone, Harmonic Technology and Acoustic Zen both use almost the same raw materials
and most probably also the basic raw wires used in the manufacture of their cables. I wouldn't also be surprised if they were sourcing this from the same place. On top of that, they both shared the SAME designer at diferent time intervals. Pick any IC from either brand
and you will see that they sound COMPLETELY different despite using the same raw materials etc...The other surprise here is that I've also listened to the cables of their supplier and there is nothing remotely resembling, sonically, any of the H/T or AZ cables. Meaning that H/T and AZ are both doing their own special design recipes to the 'raw' cables they are using.
The point is, again, you HAVE to make a sonic comparison in the JPS / Eupen case. Any prior arguments or indictments are basically useless, with all due respect.
This is where I stand and where I hope others would too, until a proper listening comparison has been actually performed.
AP
comparison per se, but with folk wanting ME to do and report on it. That's what was troublesome. The same folk that would not accept objective information (information that stays the same regardless of our opinions) from Steve and me , and even bordered on calling us liars, seem to think that we would be trustworthy to give a SUBJECTIVE opinion (subjective=changes with attitude, emotional state, biases etc).Now I like to think that I can be totally objective no matter what my biases or emotional states are (yeah, right) but why on earth would the people that damn near called me a liar think so?
Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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Give Me Ambiguity or Give Me Something Else!
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I couldn't agree with you more. I think the matter of cables is purely subjective to begin with. Reading into technical specs is exactly what marketing reps want you to do. You can only really choose cable by what YOU think sounds best. I was rather impressed with the latest issue of The Absolute Sound in which they reviewed a number of different cables and a legitimate entry was a homemade cable constructed from 14G outdoor extension cord. It actually got decent reviews and is highly recommended by a few noted experts. I think this is one I'm gonna have to try for myself.
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By the way, that outdoor extension cord works really well as an indoor extension cord for audio purposes! My new apt. has weird placements for AC outlets. I borrowed an extension cord from my dad, thinking it would be a temporary solution. You know, I'm an audiophile and all (I use stock power cords though :) ). But this extension cord works fine. Couldn't be happier. Turns out its the Home Depot one! I'm not a DIYer, but if I were, I'd make some power cords out of it (for my own use). Can't be sure, but they might "sound" better than stock cords put into the extension cord. Worth a try while your making the speaker cable?Just a thought.
Let us know how the speaker cable works,
--Jack
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