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Hello.Mom always said it was better to burn a heretic than curse the darkness.
In the same spirit, rather than continue debating whether Stereophile adequately covers low-cost high-value gear (I think it does), I have decided to solicit nominations for the same, for possible coverage in my column.
In this regard, nomination is not a guarantee of coverage, it just means I will check it out and think it over.
Also, coverage is not necessarily favorable. Your darling sweetheart of a tube amp might strike me as hopelessly colored and rolled off, and useless for driving dynamic speakers. So before you put your friend's head in the lion's mouth, give thought to how his business prospects will fare if I end up writing that for my money at least, a Marantz receiver gives more performance for less value.
Please let me know which specific sources, amps, and speakers are out there that are noticeably better than one-brand systems you can get at Best Buy but are also substantially less than $1000 per component?
I promise to give ANYONE's list due consideration, and if any products look promising I will make reasonable efforts to obtain review samples for future coverage in my column.
I do in fact have some ideas of my own but I will not disclose them until you see them in print.
Although I am not bound by the five-dealer rule, I am not inclined to cover products from recently started companies or companies that don't seem ready for prime time.
Cordially,
Follow Ups:
nt
jmrcds@jmrcds.com
Also the Moth Audio Cicadas and Omega TS-1/TS-1R and TS-2/TS-2R. All are single-driver speakers. The Horns are rear-horn loaded, the Moth and the Omegas are bass reflex.I'd also like to second (3rd, 4th...) the recommendation for some DIY / kit stuff. This is a segment of the market that Stereophile pretty much ignores. I'd like to see a process where one person builds, and talks about that, and someone else listens, and talks about that. This might avoid the "Proud Poppa Syndrome" with which all DIYers are familiar.
The Bottlehead Foreplay and Paramour are two of the insanest bargains in stereoland. If DocB doesn't come to his senses soon, and all indications are that he remains as crazy as ever, they will remain so.
Thanks, JM, for involving us in your column. I look forward to reading about the results. Maybe you should credit the Inmates who suggest whatever you decide to review?
--Shannon
JA's measurements and analysis of current BOSE 2-ch product.
While the full MSRP is about $1,200, nobody buys them for even half that thanks to Headroom.
*
Maybe the subwoofer too. Also Chang Lightspeed power MK2 power conditioners.
Maybe start a series of articles that address one serious problem that we all face ...... system setup. I'm talking the bible of setup issues and the most likely result of trying each one. Some categories ...
- Speaker setup and the various methods
- soft vs hard feet (spikes, vibrapods, darumas, etc.)
- dampening resonances
- placement of equipment on stands
- wire lengths (long IC's vs speaker cables)
- tube dampers
- etc.Of course you would have to account for various types of equipment (tubes, passives, solid state, transports, etc.). This makes it interesting and allows for a long running series of articles that we can all benefit from.
nt
nt
MMGs, I have noticed, seem to impress more people for their value than any other speaker I have come across.
nt
It can be bettered (what can't?), but not by anything in its peer group. It's certainly a big jump to find something that'll unseat it IMO.
Easily driven to sound great by modest commercial gear and only gets better as the source improves...a bargain for many years...
Hi-Thanks for writing, but for some reason the Vandersteens at all price points never struck me as the bargains their adherents claim they are.
Only once, at the NYC Show in perhaps 1996, driven by Melos tubes, did they really lose the sense of the music being trapped inside a box for me.
NOW, before anyone goes ballistic, count to ten, and reflect back upon all the times AA posters have complained to the high heavens that everything gets a good review from Stereophile writers.
Ya can't have it both ways.
Cordially,
aye aye aye...heresy!! well, to each their own...for what it's worth i've yet to hear a more musical, well rounded sub-$1000 speaker...including the MMG's...at least in my room/system...tried MANY prior to my vandies...good luck!
haven't liked any Vandy's I ever heard, at least not enough to purchase, polite but ultimately uninvolving. Haven't heard the big boys with active sub built in but did just buy his V2W sub and am impressed how seemlessly it integrates with my Aerials. More musical than chest thumping.
good points-Now what are the chances of the bottleneck foreplay making it? thanks-
There is some chance but I do not view it as a priority. This is because I try to position my coverage for people who are not equipment hobbyists but rather, baffled music lovers.Space limitations have meant that although my column was monthly for a while, it got cut back to every other month. So I have to decide what items will make the most difference to the greatest number of people. Obviously, the MMG,which was already on my list, is near the top. And to partner with that I'd like an integrated amp under $500. And I will look into tubes, but I think that kits may have to wait. It may depend upon whether my daughter wants to add soldering to her skill set.
Cordially,
... that's tiny, wonderful, and beautiful looking IMO. About $600 a pair last time I checked.
I was impressed by the sound in the Odyssey room at HE2003. I believe some of their pieces are less than $1000. Sorry I can't be more specific as I did not get the specifics myself.Also, how about an article about used gear? I always recommend used to my friends just starting out in audio because when you are starting out, you may not know what you like/prefer. If you buy used, you can generally get all your money back if you decide you want something else. I once bought an Audio Research REF 1 Preamp for $3500, used it for 2 years, then received $3200 for it. I also bought a Dyna ST70 for $250, then Ebay'd it for $325 after one year. YOu will take a big hit with new gear if you decide you want something else which I have also done. I once bought a new ARC LS7 for $1400 at a dealer and then sold for $695 after a year and a half. Many new equipment dealers have used sections as well as Audiogon. I give this advice to my friends because it I sincerely believe it is in their best interest to buy used whenever possible. Sometimes it is not possible. I think your readers would appreciate an article about excellent used gear that is widely available on the used market for less than $1000. I think they would agree that many times used gear is the best option.
nt
nt
a giant killer if I've ever met one. And a steal at $1650
It's supposed to be less that $1000 per component as per the original post, but I tried to cheet by weaseling in the Nait 5 at $1500, by saying it's $750 preamp and $750 power amp (since it has pre-outs and power-ins, so it actually is). I tried to further weasel it in by suggesting the $250 sony SACD player to make up for the imbalance, adding the Ohm Micro-walshes (long shot) for a total of $2,500Some components justify slanting the scale to meet the overall price point though, no doubt the 1.6's are one such package...
I guess kits are out of the question: ie bottleneck's foreplay another giant killer at $150 basic, $400 full throttle.
nt
nt
nt
If a new product outclasses another product it would replace the old item. Also, if an item is discontinued, you would have to replace it. An honorable mention category would also be helpful.Another thought, what about higher priced accessories? I hate to spend over a hundred dollars on a tweak that may or may not do anything. I would think an annual best of the year products list would be excellent.
Hi.Thanks for writing.
Time for today's Greek lesson.
No, that was not an X-rated reference.
The Greek rhetorical term for "a contradiction in terms" is "oxymoron." The usual example being "military intelligence."
Unfortunately, most people pronounce it as though it was made up of equal parts the beginning of the word "oxygen," and "moron," as in not too bright.
ox-ee-MORE-on.
That is wrong.
In Greek, the syllable stress is on the "antepenult;" the "one before the next to last."
So the correct pronounciation is occ-SIM-uh-run.
By this time, I think you have figured out that I don't think that the words "reference system" and "$1000" belong in the same sentence, paragraph, county, or zip code. Just like "4 inch woofer."
If a system cannot at least make relatively undistorted sound at pretty much the same level for all the keys on a grand piano, at all volumes from ppp to fff, I think it is playing tennis without the net to call it a "reference" for anything.
I have tried dozens of components in an effort to establish what is the least a classical music lover can pay for a buy it once and buy it right system that can do the above, plus orchestral and organ, and that is more like $10,000.
If having a $40,000 or a $10,000 car is more important to someone than having a good stereo, that it fine, it is a free country. I knew a kid in college who drove a beater because he had asked his parents to give him a good violin instead of a new car. It's all about your priorities.
Yes, I know--vacation home systems, office systems etc. Been there, covered that.
Thanks,
John
Do you think you could tell whether a system cost over $10,000 or under $1000 by just listening to it without seeing it? How long would you have to listen before you were reasonably certain that your answer was accurate? What odds would you lay?
You can devise a test that may make a $1,000 speaker sound as good as a $10,000 speaker, if you pick the music.If I pick the music, I can tell a lot more, and given the realities of physics and economics, I have 80% confidence factor that any system I say gets the particular job done, will be near $10,000.
I never claimed to be able to tell whether "a system" cost over $10,000 or under $1,000.
Truth be told, at HE 2003 the Usher "Sonus Faber Emulation" speakers at $1,000 a pair to my ears reproduced mezzo-soprano and classical guitar at modest but real-world volume levels with more timbral accuracy and timing information than did the big Vandersteens, which I think are near $10,000. So I am not making any general claims.
And don't even draw solid conclusions from that: the Usher room was tweaked with RPG Skylines and the speakers were well away from the walls; the Vandersteens were too big for the small room they were in.
But it would only take me 60 seconds to tell whether a system could fill the room with Brahms' German Requiem in the Telarc Shaw recording, including the organ pedals, with good imaging and soundstage size and lack of excess sibilants on the choral entry.
And, you are shocked--shocked--to learn that in my experience, the least expensive system that can do that consists of Shahinian Obelisks, a Plinius 8200, and a Marantz SA-14. Add wires and you are right at $10,000.
Perhaps you can cut a corner here or there, but this precise test case is one I worked on for 18 months while at TAS, and I am 95% confident that I can tell whether the German Requiem is more there than not, and 80% confident that that can't be done for much less than $10,000 all-in.
But I cheerfully admit that on test material with limited dynamic range, loudness, and image size, such as the aforementioned mezzo and guitar disc, a smaller less expensive speaker with a good midrange will sound better than a larger more ambitious speaker that costs a lot more but does not get the midrange right. But put Mahler on the shoebox, and the limitations become apparent.
So, here's a friendly challenge: spec out a system that can deliver most of what is in the first three minutes of the Telarc Shaw German Requiem, that will sound as good as the Obelisk/8200/SA-14 system I mention above, and cost significantly less, and tell us all about it.
Cordially,
John:Just my guess, but I think Norm was trying to get you to admit that the correlation between price and performance IS fallible. God knows, I have heard many high priced speakers that were nauseatingly bad.
Cheers,
Dan
Sure, even when you are talking about good speakers, the diminishing returns set in at some point.And if you are talking about triumphs of ideology over experience and common sense, you can get speakers that throw a remarkably huge soundstage, and that can pressurinze the room as though there really was an organ right over __there__, but the upper midrange just sounds off, and that can set you back $75,000.
My point was that you __cannot__ do justice to a work that involves full orchestra, 32' organ pedals, 120 singers plus two soloists, with a bookshelf loudspeaker that costs under $1000.
Musical sound is organized logarithmically. Go down one octave--eight notes--and you double the wavelength being propagated. For every octave you go down, the speaker has to be twice as big, or you have to resort to tradeoffs like ports, with their associated issues of resonances and impedence dips. There is no free lunch.
The least expensive speakers I have found that can do justice to the Telarc Shaw German Requiem are the Shahinian Obelisks, now at $4,000/pr.
I'd love to hear other nominations!!!!!
I'm sure you are aware that Webster indicates that the primary stress is on the third syllable and the secondary stress is on the final syllable.äk-si-'mOr-"än.
The Outlaw 950 is a lot of bang for the buck pre/pro. Had it for 6 months and still discovering/learning all the things it can do. Amazing for the money. Just ordered one of their M200 mono block amps for my center channel, $300, another contender possibly. The Gallo A'Diva is also pretty amazing for $250 each, a damn near full range single driver, 5" ball. This could be fun.
Stereophile recommended the Superzero ages ago, I now have 5 in case I ever try multichannel - they were awesome, phase coherent, but rather inefficient for such small boxes. Their range was indeed suprising given their size - for apartment listening they were great.That same effect in the form of a Gallo could be even better - especially at that price - gotta 2nd that one!
FT Audio LW-1 Passive Amplifier ($500)Bent Audio TX-102s Transformer Volume Control
($910-993 pre-assembled)Meadowlark Swallows ($600) and Swifts ($995)
Tannoy MX-3 & MX-4 floorstanders ($600-800)
Jolida JD-100 tubed CDP ($700)
Consonance a100 integrated($900) & a100plus stereo amps ($800) & b200p amp $1,000)
nOrh Le Amp 100W monoblocks ($600)
Audio Refinement Complete CD ($900)
Sony AVD-S50ES DVD/SACD plus digital amplifier all in oneEnergy Connoisseur speakers
Axiom speakers
Empirical Audio cables
Antique Sound Labs tube amps
Epos ESL-3 speakers
Kef Q1, Q3, Q5 speakers
Amphion speakers
Shockingly good at US$300/pair.
That is if you are "really" serious.Altec VOT's, JBL C-34,38,40, Large Advent's, Dynaco ST 70, etc., etc.
Won't help a bit in pushing product. May help bigtime in regaining credibility.
Bad idea. Never happen. Doe's Car and Driver review used cars? Computer shopper used P.C's? Nope. And there's good reason for it. Everyone involved in the hi fi industry (much like every other business) makes money by selling new models. Why advertise, review or push a model thats no longer available? Seems rather pointless to me, much like this whole "Stereophile sucks" thread. If you don't like it don't read it. Simple as that.
I don't accept your premise and I regret your bad manners.My readers email me all the time. They don't have any issues with my integrity or authoritativeness.
I do not cover used "classic" equipment as a rule because of my own experiences and experiences of others. Buying used "classic" equipment is very analogous to fixing up used "classic" cars. You can do it for love, but unless it is a Corvette or a Porsche, you can't do it for money--or get your money's worth.
Case in point. Buy some malfunctioning QUAD ESL 63s for, say $500. By the time they are fixed, you have $2,000 in them and are totally under water.
Large Advents by this time probably need re-coning.
I write for music lovers who want to hear the music in natural fidelity. I do not write for equipment hobbyists or fetishists, and there are already enough magazines that cater to those tastes.
Cordially,
You are oh so concerned about us audiophiles, aren't you?
It is precisely because I do care about audiophiles that I am reluctant to let enthusiasm lead people down the garden path of non-cost effective restoration projects.For the money it would take to get a set of ESL 63s with blown panels running again there are a lot of good speakers you can get--probably even two pairs of ESL 63s.
If you had read my column in the July issue, you would have seen my recommending used EAD digital as a valid option in the $500-1000 price range.
You keep claiming that I am selling gear and serving advertisers.
That just proves you have never bothered to read my columns.
I can't relate to your prose.Ok, I could parse and precisely pick over what you've written. You seem sincere. Is life too short for this kind of exercise?
You pick the example of a Quad with problems. Why not talk about properly working examples of classic gear, for starters. Artful dodger?
You wrote:I can't relate to your prose.
# # #
That's OK!
# # #
As for the QUAD Issue: 100% of the ESL 63s I have personally encountered on offer used (locally) have been to some extent broken. 100%.
As I said, I recommended used EAD digital in the current newsstand issue. When used gear is competitive with what can be had new, and is not just a fetish, I will recommend it.
But I am not the guy who is going to blow the horn for old Voice of the Theater speakers or 4-pin tube amps with oil capacitors.
There ARE magazines that cover those things, and do it well. And not one of them has 10% of the readership of Stereophile.
I write for music lovers who want advice on equipment that can deliver more than a one-brand system from Best Buy. I hear from my readers directly by email every month. I know what they own and what they want to know.
I get a lot more emails asking about integrated amps at $3,000 to $7,000 than I have ever gotten asking about kits (never) or sub-$500 amps (never).
I am going to continue to write my column to make my readers and JA happy.
Perhaps a lot of people at AA should spend more time actively supporting the magazines that do cover kits and DIY than faulting Stereophile for not covering things that don't make sense to most of Stereophile's readers.
Cordially,
John
Yes, a well stated, cogent and complete argument - you've given us all a lot to think about. It's all a conspiracy, and us poor audiophiles are the victims, having no minds of our own.The mere fact that a publication with the breadth and distribution of Stereophile would even bother with an internet asylum speaks volumes to their credibility, especially with an asylum so continuously critical like yourself (however probably 99% of such posts are made by 1% of the users).
When I first came to this page, I found volumes of negative opinions about the Quad ESL 988/989 - to the point where if I didn't own them (and if I believed the posts) I would never have bought them. One other newbie later came to the page and posted to ask "why everyone hates the Quads" - he was in fact thinking of buying them before that. My answer was to - in short - "consider the source" of the posts, as not one of the posters actually owned the Quads - and referred him to audioreview.com where posters all own the equipment, and the Quad 989 is rated 5 stars by everyone but one poster (who "heard them twice at a store" in unfamiliar surroundings, with unfamiliar equipment and recordings but posted nonetheless).
I think almost all the users on AA are great, but the small percentage cause so much problem, and taint us all. Sometimes the action is just too fast and furious on AA, and bad things get posted and preserved forevermore - fast and furious is fun, but thinking before you post is wise.
In fact, in this post JM stated that instead of firing back at all the "stereophile haters" out there, he instead decided to "turn the other cheek" and include the asylyum to the point where it could actually influence a nationally distributed magazine's choices for review - presumably to rectify the "conspiracy" that had continued to now I suppose. I think most asylum users thank stereophile for that, and have surely gotten a bit of a thrill from it. I'm not that good at turning the other cheek, personally, but admire those who are. Attitudes like yours however will keep the larger publications away in droves however - after all, turning the other cheek and participating here ain't gonna sell them any more product either.
No I ain't kissin ass, but the first issue of stereophile is still on my shelf, circa 1991, and have been reading them + TAS ever since - so this little rant is my payback for a decade of great reading. AA is great too, something new every few hours - but as someone happier with my system than I've ever been, I'll soon retire from the sport too - but will still keep reading the major mags just for the fun of it...
Victims? Huh? How do you see yourself as a "Victim"? By the way, victims never heal.
OK, JGH made some mistakes during his reign at SP and I've mentioned them. But he had integrity. He also had taste.As it stands, SP is the mouthpiece of organization audiophilia manufacturia. Yer pies yer money and yer tykes yer chice.
Yep. Classics are sought after.Must be a reason some are paying out the big buck even in this time of economic depression.
Cheers,Graham
"Blue meters, big watts. This must be Heaven!"
nt
If you can get around the cheesy build quality and speaker clips, this solid-state amp will stun you with *clean* sonics. There are very few solid-state amps I prefer to this $200 piece at *any* price.
How about a review of the Jean Marie Reynaud Twins ($850 for the pair)? How do the Twins compare with other minimonitors?DSC
A world apart, as you might expect. A very classy speaker.
Regards,
Metralla
... for a little more $$$, however of very much interest, a passive shootout Placette (resistor based) vs. Bent (transformer based).
Regards,
NT
Aperion Audio makes the cheapest speakers using Ray Kimber's DiAural crossover. I own a pair of the early versions and still like them after 3 years.Another recommendation would be B&W DM-303 bookshelf speakers with matching ASW-300 powered sub. Together they run $650.
Paradigm's Monitor 3 bookshelf is only $400 and uses an 8" woofer.
I mention bookshelf speakers because most younger people can't use towers in their crappy apartments. Having an adjustable sub is nice too.
Rob CThe world was made for people not cursed with self-awareness
You wrote:
"Marantz receiver gives more performance for less value"
Then try Harman Kardon HK3370 $299 at Crutchfield. The new H-K has more power costs a bit more. I got the HK3470 used at Harman Audio.com for $160 or so. Putting on Stereophile test CD 3 track 13 Robert Silverman piano, I can say the Marantz 4120 receiver was noticeably grainy, the HK was fine."Again, I am not trying to be nyaa-nyaa about this, and I hope that I do discover a speaker with natural tonal balance and some dynamics and bass extension for $500, and a great integrated amp for $300, etc. but it isn't that easy."
Try Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 for $328.
Epos has just come out with a vinyl clad speaker for under $400 as well. I doubt it's as dynamic as the CBM-170 though.
Well the Marantz PM-7200 is ~$700, not $300, but it got a rave in What Hi-Fi? The older PM-700 was $549.99.For source. plenty of good Panasonic, Toshiba DVD players for under $100.
LATinternational sells a CD treatment for $16.00/bottle. Clears up HF distortion. Specs give internal CD player jitter measurements but what about error from laser reading the disc? THAT's a more complete measurement. CD treatments reduce reading errors which potentially could be way more than what the CDP circuitry does in of itself.
For tuner try Marantz ST6000 for $300. Same internals as the $700 PM-17 from what I understand. Has dual antennae input and all the bells and whistles.
Put the HK up against Rotel or NAD, it's that good IMHO.
Also if you could not be as "diplomatic" as Art Dudley in his recent Rotel RA-01 / NAD review that would be good. I, for one, could not really get much of an idea how good the pieces were or how they compared to more expensive stuff. Bash away, I always say :-).
A third nomination for the Jolida JD 301A. I'm upgrading a computer based office system and this looks to be perfect for my needs. I don't think Stereophile gives enough attention to putting together second systems where compromises are a given."Mom always said it was better to burn a heretic than curse the darkness."
My mom used to say things like "Don't talk with your mouth full".
Stephen
Pro equipment that has "crossed over" to audiophileland.
I know the policy is to review gear that is readily available and fairly well distributed to the buying public. That's probably why you guy's don't even try swapping tubes on equipment. But there are several places that mod equipment in a standard way, and if a bargain can be had that beats the pants off much higher priced equipment then I think it's in the best interest of the readers (not the advertizers though) to report on this.
nt
Magnaplanar MG12 speakers
Do it yourself (DIY) interconnect, digital and speaker cables.I would be lost in audio purgatory without the wonders I have learned and joy gained in creating cables from this terrific website. Hats off to the Inmates!
nt
Default Signature Line
:-(
Hi JohnThanks for the public invite. It is encouraging to see that you and JA have not been completely turned off by some of the abuse hurled at Stereophile which has been posted here. You have thicker skins than I could muster!!
Anyway, has anyone thought about seriously investigating some of the mods offered to audiophiles? Obviously some restrictions would have to be in place -
* mod parts offered by reputable & established companies
* mods which are not too difficult to access and are readily available
* mods which can be installed by a number of technicians around the globe if the audiophile feels incapable of doing itI have been a sceptic of mods for many years and I guess most audiophiles feel the same - if it improves the product then surely the manufacturer would have done it?
Well I have changed my tune since I had a lowly Marantz 4300 CD changer modified with an Audiocom superclock. I did this mod because there was no suitable high end changer available and, the mod exceeded my wildest expectations. The lowly Marantz can now reproduce music (through digital out) which is in the same league and my Medidian 800 version 3!!!
To me, a mod such as this on a Marantz, Sony or whatever, is a much better proposition than laying out several grand on a high end CDP, and is in line with the "more affordable" approach that many (not me) are complaining is missing from Stereophile.
Considering it's popularity and good feedback on most sites, I would like to see the Music Hall MMF CD-25 reviewed. Also, have you had a chance to look at the Moth Audio Cicada speaker? Drop dead gorgeous!
I'd like to nominate the Music Hall MMF CD25 CD player; $600. Dick
:) I hate the smell of tubes. And Siamese cats. Can't stay in the room.Thanks for taking this on, John. Make em prove their point themselves. And using your own time for it!
The only one I can think of is ACI www.audioc.com. In business for 25 years, only sales over the web. Great products.
Also, if you want some links on DIY, write me and I can help some.
AVA integrated as well.
Seriously though, I do like Musical Fidelity gear!
give a listen to Cerwin-Vega speakers(especially the 12" three-ways).
also,Grado cartridges.or Yamaha integrated amps.
i know these aren't brands you would associate with high-end(except Grado),but you might be supprised at what you hear.
enjoy,
mark
vf
Several new models under $1,000 to choose from. I'd like to see a review done of one of these: RB-3, RB-5 II, RC-35, or the RC-75.
Okay I always wanted to write that.Seriously, your magazine covers plenty of low cost products. You guys reviewed my dirt cheap B&W DM 302s, you review NAD, Cambridge Audio - all three companies are excellent budget lines.
So I guess what I would add is the cheaper Tube amp manufacturers like Antique Sound Labs or Jolida or Passion. The simple reason is that I bet there are a LOT of people who are on low budget who would love to get into the tube world but simply cannot spend the moon on Cary. Sure these companies MAY not be as good, but ASL has been around for more than 10 years, they appear to get good as well as mixed reviews. Their AQ1003DT and MG 15SI DT are both under a grand both well built, both give the buyer a taste of tubes, both surprising quiet.
I'm not sure if you have reviewed Audio Refinement...but I myself would like you to only cause it again seems to be a SLIGHTLY scaled down YBA Integre...Some say it's better than the YBA Integre (non DT version) and not much worse than the DT. At under 1k if those two things are true, then I'd argue it a steal.
You wrote:"I'm not sure if you have reviewed Audio Refinement...but I myself would like you to only cause it again seems to be a SLIGHTLY scaled down YBA Integre...Some say it's better than the YBA Integre (non DT version) and not much worse than the DT. At under 1k if those two things are true, then I'd argue it a steal."
Chip Stern reviewed the Audio Refinement The Complete integrated amp in the April, 1999 issue of Stereophile. My review of the Audio Refinement Pre-2DSP preamp-processor and the Multi-5 multichannel amplifier is in the current issue of SGHT.
Bob
You have nailed one reason I don't believe in "juniors." I'd not want to name a kid John, it bodes ill for romance.I have mentioned JoLida, will investigate other companies.
I'm thinking FT-LW1, the ASL, the CI, the affordable end.
and add the Placette RVC at $1000, which has to be one of the best values in audio!
nt
I found the bested the garden hose MIT T2 biwires I had before. Takes two pairs to do it. I have had the chance to play with (while helping a friend break in audition cables) Nordost SPMs, some JPS Lab's, Cardas, and the SPM's were the best to me. Not saying these Mapleshades are close, I have no idea, but they just blew me away, not leaving me wanting in the speaker cable dept. Yeah, there's probably a handful of other choices that would have been great in some regard or another. On the downside, they may not be for folks with pets and kids. They don't want to be repeatedly hooked up, un-hooked, hooked up..... unless you get some terminations on them. Mine have cat hair all over them from tails passing under them. Mine also get bounced around a bit as they are very springy - they are totally suspended by themselves between amp and speaker. Again, the cats.... Love the green and gold insulators - very festive looking. Think Mardi Gras!!!
marc g. - audiophile by day, music lover by night
Jolida JD301A ($350) and 1701A ($500) hybrid integrated amps: http://www.jolida.com/catalogue_hybrid.htmlMatching speakers to go with 'em - Axiom M40ti towers ($490) or M50ti ($620/pr): http://www.axiomaudio.com/towers2.html
I have no experience with either brand, but I'd be curious to learn more about Jolida hybrid integrateds (JD1701A, JD1501A), Jolida tube integrateds (JD102B, JD202A, JD302B), and Axiom speakers. Thanks, Todd.
If you have electrostatics on hand, let the Naim Nait 5 sing through them - I promise it will fill your heart with joy, no matter how jaded by the prospect of "budget" equipment - you'll cut a cheque when the review is done, and a small cheque at that (by audio standards).I'm a low volume listener forever in love with the Quad ESL 57's (10 years total use) and now enjoy identical low volume ecstacy with the Naim Nait 5 + 989's, without even buying the flatcap outboard power supply in my large-ish apartment living room.
For "normal" (or loud) level volume listening, try the Nait 5 through a pair of Reference 3A DiCapo's (92 db efficient I believe) - haven't heard it myself, but guarantee a stunner of a budget system!!!
> If you have electrostatics on hand, let the Naim Nait 5 sing through
> them...
Art Dudley is reviewing the Nait in our August issue.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
.
My review of the $795/pair Monitor Audio Silver S2 speaker is also in the
August Stereophile.
JA
.
nt
> I bet he's enjoying the audition.
Art is, of course, comparing the Nait to a Musical Fidelity
amplifier :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Good enough for me!
nt
I haven't heard this one personally, but to stay under a total of $2,500 you can add in Sony CE775 SACD Player $250, leaving you $750 for speakers and possibility of multichannel in the future (although with the Naim you're not likely to care any more)[1] Nait 5 preamp $750 (has separate preamp output)
[2] Nait 5 power amp $750 (has separate power amp inputs)
[3] Sony CE 775 SACD $250
---------------------------------------------------------
$1,750 total thus $750 left for speakers = $2,500!!!
Sorry for the duplicate message! Messed up Subject on previous.From the ohm website: Short MicroWalsh's come in black cloth covered cabinets for $750/pair or $850 for real wood veneered cabinets
http://www.ohmspeakers.com/styles_microwalsh.cfm
Always wanted to hear the ohms!!!
From the ohm website: Short MicroWalsh's come in black cloth covered cabinets for $750/pair or $850 for real wood veneered cabinetshttp://www.ohmspeakers.com/styles_microwalsh.cfm
PS regarding the limitation of being under $1,000 per component, the Nait is:[1] Pre amp
[2] Power ampIn fact, I believe it has pre-outs and power-ins, making that doubly true...
nOrh Model 4 ceramic two-ways ($400/pr) and SE-9 integrated ($399)- this is a super-stable direct-only company with solid customer support out of Thailand, with extensive consumer feedback on sites like Harmonic Discord. You're probably already well aware of them but just in case, here's the site: www.norh.comIt's quite the treasure trove for affordable high-quality stuff.
Cheers,
Srajan
Although I am not bound by the five-dealer rule, I am not inclined to cover products from recently started companies or companies that don't seem ready for prime time.
I think you should take this opportunity to really explore the audio underground world and include direct-sell manufacturers and passionate DIYer's who sell their works. Given the risks of not getting ready for prime time, financial instability, dependence on off-the-shell components, etc., the advantage of your audiences getting an exceptional quality vs price performance may outweight them. Once risks and advantages clearly explained, your audiences will have to decide for themselves whether they want to take those risks -- just like they'll have decide for themselves eventually whether your ears can be used to reliably judge good sound. Why not give them the choice?
Thanks for your good-faith suggestions.The problem is that Stereophile prints about 80,000 copies of each issue. That is not actually a problem it is pretty damn impressive.
Industry standards indicate that each issue will get seen by 2.5 people. OK. That's 200,000 people. Let's say that 20% read my column. 40,000 people. Let's say that just 2% of those people decide to investigate seriously a product I rave about. That's 800 inquiries.
If only 10% of those place orders, that's 80 Stereophile readers too many if the "passionate DIY'er" can't deliver the goods on time and working.
Let's not forget that we are talking about electricity here. How willing are you to have your house burn down, just to save fifty bucks on some audio gear?
And I am not joking about houses burning down. I can name two audio writers who narrowly escaped that fate because the importer of a tube amp replaced certain parts with parts of different values in order to "get more" out of the amp. It sounded great until its power supply burst into flames.
Now, the exception that proves the rule is the Dartzeel amp that I mention in this month's column and write up in the next. Yes, it is a one-man company. No, he is not a DIY'er; he is a graduate engineer who has subcontracted out things like casework and glasswork, and uses high-quality parts in novel designs, and the build quality is right up there with Nagra and JRDG. And the amp costs $10,000 plus. I feel and JA seems to agree that Dartzeel has enough external indicia of commitment and stability (he has more than $100,000 tied up in the NRE for boards and casework) that as long as I fully inform my readers, they can decide whether to risk that M. Delétraz may meet an untimely end, and his charming wife may not be good at electronics.
But if the product comes from a guy working on his kitchen table, in most cases it's gonna be Passover 'round here.
Thanks,
JOHN
(Sorry if S-phile has already these!)Arcam DiVA A65 integrated amp: $599
Arcam DiVA CD62T CD player: $599
Rega Alya speakers: $595Rotel RA02 integrated amp:$499
Rotel RCD02 CD player: $499
Ruark Epilogue II speakers: $549The list goes on and on. It's not so difficult to find lower-priced components if you really want to.
I made a point of hearing the Rega Alyas in San Francisco.I will see what I can line up on the other stuff.
Thanks for writing.
Ciao,
I'd be very curious to hear how an inexpensive, pro digital eq such as the DBX Driverack PA (c. $400 street), holds up for room mode correction against the likes of Rives (analog?), Tact, Tag, Sig-Tech et al.
Albeit, this is a bit off topic from quality consumer level gear.
Perhaps you could borrow an assembled pair of speakers and play devils advocate by suggesting DIY and value.
thanks for the opportunity.
The Njoe Tjoe 4000 CD Player as amazed me compared to my reference of a very good analog system. (Nottingham and EAR.)
no text
Seems to me there are some very good kits out there at very reasonable prices. You ever consider looking at kits, like a summary or an article about kit building and do it yourself audio??
Thanks for contributing.Gotta think those over.
My focus is the person who has a non-music, non-audio job, but might play the piano or sing in a chorus or choir or just love music, and I want to let that person know that by spending five times what a shelf system from Best Buy would cost, you can get ten times as much music in your home.
This person I think no more wants to own a soldering iron than does Rebecca Romijn-Stamos.
But I will think it over. Perhaps a good summer project for my daughter.
Ciao,
my 17-year old daughter has just started building a Bottlehead Foreplay Pre-amp, after watching me build some Bottlehead Paramours (and a couple other projects). She's fascinated by it, and couldn't be happier. My Dad built all his stuff back in the 50s and early 60s, and I learned from him, and the kids love that angle,also. The kits available now bring back the good old days, with excellent products and lots of ways to customize tone to your own taste. Another thing, is the kids today are have never seen or heard of tubes, and my kids were shocked that anything electrical could be "built." My son (19) just a Foreplay, and we're listening to it now- he couldn't be prouder of it. Check out the AudioAsylum sponsors that sell kits- Bottlehead, Pi Speakers, Welborne, DIY Cable, etc.- great variety and quality.
Roy Johnson's Green Mountain Audio Europa speakers ($780).Move over Mr. Shahanian...
Thanks.Still a little higher in price than what I perceive a lot of the clamor is for, but I will check them out.
Shahinian's lowest is now $1,200, and that is a tough price for an LS3/5A homage, as you can get the Harbeth LS3/5A successor for the same money.
And that gives you a $2,500 system, minimum, and what I have been hearing people say is that that is not "budget."
Or am I not hearing what has been said?
In any event, this has been a good non-confrontational way to clear some air at least...
(Cue up Quicksilver Messenger Service's "Fresh AIr"--the single most over-reverb'ed track in history.)
Immer essen,
Roy is building and selling more speakers and is at maximum capacity for quality. I requested some review samples myself...but customers take front seats.I am on a Holding pattern for ETM with them.
Audio AsylumŽ Signature line: Hearing is believing.
Thanks.How many times have I said--and I do get the sense that a lot of people at AA think it is just a post hoc rationalization--that I often get blanked on review requests for gear from small companies when there is a buzz on about the gear?
I did not start this thread in bad faith, but golly if I had wanted to set up people for an "I told you so" I could not have done a better job.
But trust me, I am neither that smart nor that calculating.
But it does seem that JA does know how to do his job.
Cordially,
.
Audio AsylumŽ Signature line: Hearing is believing.
Not to be ultra-picky, but:Green Mountain Audio's website has no content, just placeholder from the ISP.
No email link to a company address.
And the toll-free number I got from Soundstage's review is not working.
Now, if I audition the speaker and it is nice, and I recommend it, what are my OBLIGATIONS TO THE SUBSCRIBER about letting them know that there are indications that GMA is not fully operational at the level that, oh, say, Musical Fidelity is?
What if there is a problem with a speaker and the company has gone from tenuous to folded? Would not a reader feel let down by me?
That is a serious question and it deserves serious, respectful, non-confrontation consideration.
This ain't JA's first rodeo, and it ain't JM's either.
JA has solid good-faith reasons for his rules, and those reasons aren't to make his job easier, but rather to protect the SUBSCRIBERS from the vicissitudes of small companies' courses.
Cordially,
Some companies, despite how incredible their gear is, aren't ready to be discovered by a mass market publication, and may never be.So, shhhhh, keep 'em between us.
I too, am suprised there's not some better semblance of a website.
gma@pcisys.net is Mr. Johnson's email I believe.While $780 isn't quite "budget", I feel, as I believe you have propounded, the speaker would be the place to invest in most system cost allocation scenarios.
Hopefully these speakers would survive beyond the other entry-level equipment being upgraded.
For a startup firm, a website certainly increases initial sales and the chances for success, but cannot assure longevity nor customer service. Those come only from spending whatever time is necessary on perfecting the products, and serving customers.We are not a startup- thus our sales do not depend on the presence of a website, but come from 30+ dealers (most of whom have carried us for many years), international distribution, ten years of editors' reviews in BFS, S'phile, AIG, Soundstage, Home Theater Magazine, and by TAS staff, and from showing/playing at every wholesale trade show since 1991.
For us, daily communications are not about "what we make", but address questions on equipment, acoustics and application, with our existing customers and dealers. Posting a lit-only website we knew would only overload this service, so we decided long ago our site must also provide these answers- and so maybe even reduce the time we spend on the phone.
Working at our "limits of quality"? Yes. Pouring cast marble for cabinetry is a pain. And designing truly minimum-phase systems is a lengthy process.
Does that mean we ship only a few products? No.
More than 4 tons of the new Europas have already crossed the workbenches, 35,000 lbs of Diamantes, several tons each of the Imago, our subwoofers and center-channel speakers, and more than 40,000 lbs of the Continuum 0.5, 1, 1.5, and 2 models. No rejects. No failures. No "B" stock. No used speakers on the internet. No blow-it-out dealers.
Just several thousand happy customers.With the continuing increase in sales, especially of the new Europa, and with the upcoming intro of the C-3, we have had to put off every reviewer request, unfortunately, for still a few more weeks. We shall be in touch with all.
Also, my best estimate for a website publication time is now "sometime in July"- there is not that much work left to do. I hope all will find it useful.
Best regards,
Roy Johnson
Green Mountain Audio
310 South 25th Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80904
719 636-2500
gma@pcisys.netPS: the Europa, since Feb 1st, sells for $880/pair- used to be $780- Thanks, Rob! And for the inexpensive system, many customers recommend budget components or used gear with the Europas, as they are such an easy load to drive- 30-40 Watts into 8 Ohms is enough for all but the serious rockers (the Europa is a 4 Ohm speaker). They, like me, feel that the Europa's lack of phase shift keeps it from distorting the component's distortion. Distorted distortion is not an additive process- it is exponential and thus responsible for much of the "synergy" discussions.
PPS: To Mr. Marks' concerns about-
"Now, if I audition the speaker and it is nice, and I recommend it, what are my OBLIGATIONS TO THE SUBSCRIBER about letting them know that there are indications that GMA is not fully operational at the level that, oh, say, Musical Fidelity is?"
You have that obligation, undoubtably- it's responsible reportage to mention the "indications".
And you'd want to remind them that Audio Alchemy, Sonic Frontiers, Wadia, EAD, CEC, Micro Seiki, Phase Linear, Hartley, IMF, KLH, HH Scott, Fisher, MFSL, Thorens, Tandberg, Dokorder, Ohm, Genesis, SAE, Genesis/EPI/Epicure, ADS/Braun, NEAR, N.E.W., Akai, Ariston, Oracle, the original Von Schweikert and Eggleston firms, Threshold, and countless others were all quite large- at one time at least as "fully operational" as Musical Fidelity.
You'd remind them how size, advertising and reviews are not sure indicators of longevity; how a small firm might more easily withstand sudden changes in the economy because of their lower fixed costs.
Perhaps share your definition of what "fully operational" means in this crazy world of audio. We think it means being "fully responsive" to existing customers' questions and needs, and building quality, performance and value into the products, more than how many salespeople we employ or how many reviews and dealers we set up.
"What if there is a problem with a speaker and the company has gone from tenuous to folded? Would not a reader feel let down by me?"Absolutely, but ONLY if you had not shared what you knew, right?
But printing "indications of tenuousness" does not make them into knowledge. In fact, to us it feels like a cheap shot (even though I'm quite sure you did not mean it that way), as you made no effort as a reporter to contact any magazine editor, or the CES/T.H.E. Show staffs for our phone number- it's probably in most internet phone directories too. A search of my own "Green Mountain" postings at Audiogon, here at AA, and over at The Vinyl Engine would also show our contact info straight away.
We'd give you the references to ascertain our "tenuousness" (tenacity?)- it's only proper to do so, as that is a fair request. I expect you'd find we are still moving forward.
"That is a serious question and it deserves serious, respectful, non-confrontation consideration."Yes it does, but I had to confront you with how you could have found our 10yr-established phone number. Sorry, I wish you would have. It's a big world, with a lot of manufacturers for you to know, and lots of reporters for us to know, so this is going to happen. A website from us will help ease any confusion.
Best of luck with all your writings.
nt
Will you consider kit gear?Bottlehead Seduction - $200 tube phono preamp kit
Bottlehead Paramours - $549 monoblock SET 2A3 amplifiersAnd on the non-kit tip:
Audio Magic Mini Stealth Power Purifier - $600
Shelter 501 cartridge - $800 or so I believe
Ortofon GM Classic cartridge - $600
Bent Audio/Stevens & Billington TX103 step-up transformers
ACI (Audio Concepts) Force subwooferThanks for asking, John!
Maybe even have a few people do the same comparison on their own systems and compile results.
1) A.V.A. gear... especially the preamps
2) Budget subs... A.C.I. or the Rava, for eg.
3) Maybe a tabletop radio round-up - this subject seems to crop up
4) Audio Electronic Supply gear
5) Antique Sound Labs (anything that fits the criteria)
5) Axiom speakers... often talked about, but ya can't hear 'em!
I think this is a great idea. It's because of things like this, that I like Stereophile so much. As well as Home Audio/Music as a hobby. My nominations are as follows.1. Nain Nait 5 Integrated-amp $1500.00
2. Marsh P2000 Linestage $1200.00
3. NAD C 541i CD Player $500.00
4. Njoe Tjoe 4000 CD Player $ 599.00The one of my nominations I really love is the Naim Nait 5. This little thing just rocks. Especially when paired with the Naim CD 5, which retails for $2250.00. Again thanks for carring about my opinion. I think it's really cool.
IRD LLC-Purist preamp. costs 665 dollars and deserves a look. here its website:http://www.ird-thailand.com/products/purist/purist.htm
you may also want to look at the odyssey stratos. it's barely over 1000 dollars (1070). www.odysseyaudio.com
The Sugden A21a class 'A' amp and Totem Arro speaker combination are THE class act when it comes to a taste of the high end on a budget, but they're slightly over your $1000 per component limit.
nt
Best Regards,
Chris Redmond.
Thanks for replying.I did not start this thread in bad faith, but I am just as happy to use it to prove a point!
As I said to myself the first time I tried conducting a (youth) orchestra--this isn't as easy as it looks!!!!!
Yes, I am sure that those pieces are good, and good together--but we are in the price range ST and I have often covered, where you take an amp a little over $1,000 and speakers a little over $1,000, and oh, this CDP really makes a difference, and even with modest cables and wires...
WHADDYA MEAN, $3,000 FOR A STEREO! I CAN GET A WHOLE FREAKIN' HOME THEATER INCLUDING TV FROM CRUTCHFIELD FOR $1995!
Again, I am not trying to be nyaa-nyaa about this, and I hope that I do discover a speaker with natural tonal balance and some dynamics and bass extension for $500, and a great integrated amp for $300, etc. but it isn't that easy.
If I could have come up with a system that would play music with fidelity and not just be some increment over the Best Buy system, at a price under $2,500, I would have had a system under $2,500 the last time I did a system roundup. I couldn't so I didn't.
Cheerio,
John Marks
I don't understand. You guys already review integrates, speakers and cd players under 1k each and gave them reccomendations...so it is possible you've done it.I would have mentioned the Sugden A21a as well, but it's over your 1k limit...still I think it sounds considerably better than the Bryston B60 and costs less here. But still, I understand a magazines difficulty in testing ONE product from a small manufacture that sells in smaller numbers than a Bryston. It's not like everyone is carrying Sugden(maybe they should mass build them like Bryston and advertise the snot out of em). I'd also like you to review the Master class line...but I also realize that everyone makes very diverse requests.
But it has to peak your interest just a tiny bit to see a smaller compnay bring out out a 3500.00pound power amp that is 35 watts...and the Brit mags drool over it...bias perhaps but it still something I'd love to hear(maybe not even available here).
I can't complain about your speaker selections though I think you could better than Paradigm and NHT- but someone wil always complain about something including me. Actually I'm a bit surprised never to see the B&W 600 sereis there. I've listened to em directly against some of the Paradigms of similar prices ---I dunno. I know you probably don't want ALL B&Ws but if the 602 is not better than the Titan or AT LEAST on par with the Studio 20 for less money, then I need an anvil, hammer, drum replacement in the ole ear canal.
ASL, Jolida, I maintain are interesting choices here. Why not Klipsh...they are certainly DIFFERENT...should be fun to write about their strengths and weakness and colour...I would describe them as a FUN speaker...despite problems.
If you click on the link for the A21a review provided above, subsequent clicks onto the 'next' (bottom right of page) take you to a review of the Mastersound monoblocs.
Thanks for that. They look awesome. Should be able to best Krell I should think. Krell IMO is grossly overrated and still despite the huge money can't escape that etched presentation. I have yet to see the fuss - except the price.
it would be to our advantage to promote sacd by having these items available and priced to sell. as of now, the sony dvd/sacd/cdps are a bargain (got my ns500v for $161 delivered).
publicity is what we need for this format to succeed. pop science mag put an expensive shanling in their mag and while its spectacular to look at, the verbiage to describe it was shocking. tubes dont handle 'high end frequencies' well!?? ooops, the shot us in the foot. people now will believe that SACDPs are expensive and soft sounding.
well john, i hope this rings a bell for you. hi rez awareness needs to be boosted a bunch, heres our chance.
......regards.....tr
Great sound for the money ($1200/pr) especially when mated with a Gallo or other subwoofer. They do a real diappearing act too.
The low end of Magnepan's line (below the 1.6)Inexpensive interconnects (under $50/meter) and speaker cable
(under $100/3 meter). Maybe power cords too.Inexpensive cd players and dacs and transports (under $1200).
And lastly, inexpensive integrated amps.
Doing these reviews in a "shootout" format would be great.
Keep up the good work. Always enjoy your columns and your posts
here at AA.
Thanks for replying, BUT except for the MMG, your recommendations are not specific enough.I am not asking people to do my work for me, but, frankly, I have heard a lot of budget gear, and for the kind of music I listen to, a lot of the fave-rave budget gear does not have so much more to offer over one-brand systems you could get at Best Buy that the price increment is justified.
Fr'instances, a lot of people were raving at the Show in San Francsico over a certain speaker under $400. I dutifully went to hear it, and it sounded like hi-fi and not music. Detail but lacking body and impact. But the Usher "emulation" of Sonus Faber at $1,000/pr retail was something I could live with. But I sense that there is clamor for components in the $300-500 range. (Don't be disappointed if I listen and then say it's a nothingburger.)
So I am asking for people to recommend specific pieces of gear, specifically. Manufacturer, model number or name, and contact info if they are obscure.
Thanks,
John
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