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Not yet...but what follow below is (long) and basically comments on the new TAS direction and some background on other cables that have graced the status of everyman's Home Depot. Here goes...Comments on TAS and HD
If DIY/Home Depot get even a brief mention again in the next issue we might begin thinking about coining a acronym (using the Unix-speak naming convention of prefixing "YA" for yet another )... YAHD...it does have a sort high-end ring to it ... one day we may see regular TAS column to reflect and legitimize the ground swell of DIY activities/forums. More probably it signals a new direction and what better way to gauge the reaction to "low" cost recommendations into Harry Pearson's bible.My two cents on the DIY cable recommendation that concludes "not much more to be desired" is perhaps the equivalent to a slam dunk to partly stem the Musical Fidelity/Advertisers sacred cow discussions but... do not expect HP or RH to author the words...It seems as if TAS is willing to sacrifice some "writing" lambs (with questionable hearing) in the interest wider readership or maybe John Marks call for low cost equipment recommendations for Stereophile had something to do with it. Back to the cable farm...
- Home Depot 14 Gauge "Halloween" Extention Cable
The recent TAS recommendation of "black/organge" extention cord as speaker cabling is yet another new direction. It seems as if the person (Paul Seydor) recommending them is from the "old school" as he rates wires near the bottom of things to try for system tuning. The editor (Rober Harley) put in his editor's comment to say that he disagree with this view....however he fell short of actually passing judgement on the cable itself. Paul Seydor's position is somewhat legitimize by recording engineer Tony Faulkner's use of these cables or the reaction (here) would have been louder.
Home Depot/Lowe's THHN Background Info
I recently posted about using another (different) commonly available thermoplastic wire available at Home Depot as speaker cables.
I'm also aware articles dating back twenty years ago making similar recommedations (Internation Audio Review, Peter J. Moncrief recommends Columbia-Romex). So with the recent TAS article recommending "yet another" cable, I thought I might fill in some of the blanks on everyday "stock" at Home Depot that are mutter in the same breath as the word audio, soundstage, highs and lows....
- THHN E5183 12 gauge
Seems like the preferred version of thermoplastic is THHN E51583 made by Southwire. The TWN75 designation is an equivalent Canadian standard. It is constucted a tightly bonded PVC jacket surrounded by a clear nylon jacket supposedly designed to stem corrosion for 50 years.
The wire first gained notice about two years ago (BFS) and picked up discussion in Harmonic Discord forum where no clear consensus could be reached and people came to the suggestion that it was due to different manufacturers (Cerro or Essex) or the use of different sized strands to decrease the overall wire diameter for the same gauge....this seems somewhat amusing now that variable strand is common in high-end designs for resonance distribution.Most of the past posts dealt with 12 gauge variants of E51583 as this was deemed empirically to be best.
- BFS THHN 6 Gauge
Martin deWulf readers at BFS haved picked up on the 6 gauge variant and seem to be going through the same loops as those at HD two years ago where YMMV results seem to be the norm ...partly due to the availability of different manufacturing sources for the same wire designation. Simplifying the design to 8 gauge can remove the need for spades and one step in assembly beyond cutting and stripping.
The strange thing is that over the course of the last two years this thread on THHN was barely mentioned in AA.PeAK
Follow Ups:
...wouldn't XHHW-2 or XLP-USE suffice??The good thing about THHN is it comes on so many purdy colors and can be bought solid or stranded.
You think HD is cheap, I buy it every day for half that!!
Interesting post.I will be making two sets of speaker wires in this high-performance, low cost category: one set from Yellow Jacket Extension Cord (#2992) that is a 10 AWG 3 conductor wire capable of carrying 20 amps and a second set from a twisted pair of E51583 THHN, capable of carrying 50 amps per wire. I will then test these two cables against a 10-foot pair of Transparent Audio Music Wave Plus speaker cable and an equal length of Cardas Neutral Reference. Then I will report my findings here. But it will be awhile. I have other system priorities, like buying an additional amp and preamp.
Interestingly enough when I was at Home Depot the other day I had an opportunity to discuss wire with an electrician who worked in the electrical department. Right away he tried to steer me to the 12 AWG Carol wire that Home Depot sells, which isn't too bad by the way. "No," I said, "I'm more interested in your E51583." The electrician went on to say that that wire was used to heat hot tubs, for example, and was often used in conduit. "So," he said, "Why did I need that." When I told him that I was going to make speaker wire out of it, he just couldn't believe it, but he went silent after that and continued to give me a strange look as if I were nuts.
Well, I felt obliged to defend my project, but felt, all the while, that I could not rationally justify what I was saying, even though the entire project was going to cost me only a $100, which included high quality connectors and shrink wrap tubing. Then I told the electrician that one could easily spend one-to-two thousand dollars for an eight-foot pair of speaker wires. You should have seen this guys face. I didn't have the heart to tell him that their is wire on the market that costs $30,000 for a ten-foot pair!
... at the home of my friend Roberto (Basis TT, Sony SACD player, Rogue 99, custom-made push-pull 300B amps, Von Schweikert VR-3s). He had just bought some Nordost speaker cables he liked (don't know the model) to replace his Straightwires. We put my old Omega Mikros in the mix as well, and finally the Home Depot 14 gauge.There was simply no comparison.
He wouldn't give me back the HD 14s until I promised to make him a pair.
and I bought a 25 footer. Just so I'm clear, I'm just snipping off the plugs, cutting the cable in half so I have one run to left and right and that's it? I leave the wire in the orange and black sheathing?
Just strip the orange and black covering back a couple of inches, snip off the green wire, and use the other two as the + and - (your choice). I crimp on Radio Shack nickel plated spades and dress it up with heatshrink. I've made three sets like this, and they sound sensational. I wouldn't bother with doubling up as in the post below, but that's me. These things keep sounding better all the time.
: )
Yeah, I think I'm just going to do it this way except that I think I'm not going to opt for the spades. I'll just go w/ the bare wire.
nt
You'll find three wires within the wrap; I twisted all 3 to make one cable; total of four cables altogether. YMMV
____________ // ________________
Okay, so there ends up being three wires for positive and three for negative? So two runs of the orange/black cord to each speaker?
two wires(cables) per speaker. Sorry if I was misleading!
____________ // ________________
.
All I can say is WOW ----and --- I ain't deaf after all!
I think they are great too.Exstension cord,Coax RG6 cable,CAT5 cable,Aluminum foil,all make great speaker cables and aren't designed for it.In the cable game,to get good sound,all you have to do is be creative and use a touch of common sense.
been using the 'Halloween's' for about 14 hours now in what I consider to be a revealing system. Initially I was somewhat disappointed but now after a mild burn-in period they aren't sounding too shabby. Highs are sounding quite sweet yet midrange and bass appear 'stuck together'. Prolonged burn-in appears to be the only way they'll come apart breaking the seam. But the highs once again are sounding 'honey sweet'. I'm intrigued.
____________ // ________________
Finally overhyped cables and the sillyness of the cable industry will be revealed.
In about a week or so I will be getting the rest of the supplies I will need to build a 10' pair of the THHN 6 gauge cable from HD. I will directly compare the HD cables (see below for how I will be constructing them) with my current reference, a 10' bi-wire set of the CC89259 terminated with Furutech solderless spades (VH Audio sells them). I just recently updraded my front three HT/music system speakers. With the Furutech spades I must say the CC89259 cables are incredible in my system. Due to the low parts cost ($65 including shipping and sales tax) for a 10' HD 6 ga. pair, the ease of construction and minimal time to build a DIY set of these cables I could not resist trying them.Contruction and parts details:
* Twisted pair (pink for positive lead and black for negative lead)
* Using Vampire RG6 spades (6 gauge spades that is gold plate over pure copper).
* Spades soldered using Cardas Quad Eutectic solder.
* The twisted pair will be heat shrunk the entire twist length with polyolefin heatshrink.
* Teflon wrapped then polyolefin heatshrink used to seal the connectors from air.
* I will dress the cables up with black techflex. Actually the finished cables will look like a thicker version of the CC89259. At least they will look cool and if I do not like them I will give them away as a gift!
I will run the new HD cables on a FryCleaner for a week continously before inserting into the system, then I will let them play 24/7 a few days before experimenting with them. I will compare them in a non-biwired setup, bi-wired setup, matched with the CC89259 with one on HF and the other on LF and then swapped. I am very curious if the two cables used together will have timing differences vs non-mixing them. I will test with varying types of music and HT.
As an FYI for those of you that are not famailiar with the HD 6 and 8 gauge THHN wire, they are sold as a single conductor wire. They are available in four colors, an off white, pink, black and green. My local HD (Bay Area, N. Ca) charges .25/ft. for 8 gauge and .43/ft for the 6 gauge. The wire is very stiff but can be molded into a shape. 19 thick gauge solid core copper conductors tightly wound and bound with probably PVC jacket then a nylon jacket.
The above wire will be tested in my main setup consisting of all Madrigal Audio Labs SS gear (mainly Proceed). I will list the cables and associated other accessories and gear used when I post my experimental findings noted above.
I will be following your plan, which sounds like a good one to me.
In the interest of simpflying the experiment, it would be good to keep the number of variables down by eliminating complexities in the construction of the cable.In theory, the simplest version would be to just twist two runs and attach the bare copper ends on each side to your amp/speakers. Done deal.
The problems I see with your "pretty" cables are:
- Pink and black insulation will lead to differences in copper and insulation. Might be a bad thing or a good thing. You can still go your route, but try playing your system in "monophonic" and build an all black run to one speaker...then an all pink run and listen. Then, try a mixed run...we might find some interesting info but we need the first two datapoints.
- Are you going to solder your spades with a blowtorch ? As Jon mentioned...6 gauge is probably already overkill...try the 8 gauge...you will not need spades.
- Polyolefin will intoduce another dielectric into the mix. Try without first and if microphonics is somehow tracked down to be the the issue...apply heatshrink.
- For same reasons hold off on the techflex.
This is beginning to sound like DBT testing with the ambiguity of test results confounded by setup. As you know...one of that here :)
PeAK
I have to use spades unless I form a spade or a "U" from the bare wire. My binding posts are Cardas posts, no holes to place the wire through to clamp down on. Especially with the stiffness and thickness of the wire the only way I can figure out how to accomplish a air tight connection to a binding post would be with a spade. I will be using a 140 watt solder gun (next closest thing to a blow torch..lol) to solder the spade.I dissagree regarding using bare wire for several reasons, for which I do not have time at the moment to get into. Techflex "may" affect the sonics of the cable, then it may not. Need to run off to work, will discuss this thread later...
What I got out of the TAS cable article was that the Home Depot sounded OK, but was not a giant kiler or the ultimate.I think it very relevant to note that the TAS reviewer who was most enamored of the HD wire was of the classic "wire is not that important" genre (Quote:"It seems as if the person (Paul Seydor) recommending them is from the "old school" as he rates wires near the bottom of things to try for system tuning."). If this person has consistently been regarding audio cables as low priority (perhaps because he does not hear all of what high performance cables have to offer), then it is not too surprising that he would also be prone to rate glorified zip cords (the twisted triad that these AC power cords represent are electrically equivalent to zip cord in terms of inductance and most of the other relevant parameters) as just as good as high end performance cables; in essence he has been doing this all along the way already.
Regards the THHN wires, anyone who has listened to a set of twisted pair wires made from 'Romex' has already heard the best of what they have to offer, and has in the vast majority of cases, moved on to better things. The 'romex' wires use solid copper, which generally sounds better than stranded in these gauges, and uses just a PVC insulation. Adding an extra layer of insulation will not improve the total dielectric situation, the added nylon sheath for instance will NOT obviate the PVC sonic signature, only add yet another colouration to the sonic mix.
The super large wire fad (6 ga.) has been cyclic over the years, and my own take on it is that the sheer amount of copper involved, the inevitable large spacing between the center of the wires, sometimes not even twisted together, but separated apart, leads to a RELATIVELY large amount of inductance relative to the very low DCR. This creates a situation where the LF's are very tight and powerful just due to the sheer amount of copper, but the HF's are not as well handled, ending up soft and rounded a bit. On many systems, this HF filter effect can sound very euphonic, and make the bass seem even more powerful than it is.
Add to this the almost inevitable presence of PVC insulation on such large wires (hard to find that size in anything BUT PVC insulated!), and the sonic signature of PVC, which can make the bass sound powerful and strong (at the expense of apparent pitch definition and overall clarity), then you have a case where the insertion of these kinds of wires as speaker cables makes the sysem suddenly sound as if it had been given a dose of testosterone, and an ever so smooth high end, and the overall effect can be quite beguling.How much more does one get in the bass when going from say a 12 ga. to a 6 ga.? Again, this is highly system dependant, and for instance, a high output Z tube amp would not likely be able to show much IF ANY improvement with the 6 ga., while a low output Z SS amp into a Maggie might be noticable. The biggest factor is: how long are the cables? A typical 10 foot run is not going to show much, a 50 foot run will magnify the issue.
The fly in the ointment is that ultimately, there IS loss of bass pitch definition, loss of clarity, subtle loss of soundstage clues and transient definition, etc. that are temporarily overwhelmed by the seemingly huge increase in the apparent quantity of bass, and of the HF smoothness.
All audio components involve design compromises, audio cables are no different. You can not simply increase the sheer amount of copper without other aspects suffering due to the geometry that results, etc.
So as with all other audio components, there are design trade-offs, compromises, and it is almost inherently impossible to opitimize ALL apsects simultaneously. It is not impossible, but very difficult, and involves throwing a lot of money and engineering at the problem, hence the high end price tags for high performance audio components.
For folks who either NEED lots of copper (low DCR), or who like that kind of bass from their systems, I recomend trying the Quad version of the Cross-Connected 89259, equivalent to almost 10 ga. total, there is enough copper there to provide that low DCR aspect for the bass, yet the materials and geometry provide low inductance and greatly improved signal clarity, and no penalty in loss of bass pitch definition.Is the Quad CC89259 the ultimate? Of course not. Will it satisfy the same as 6 ga. HD cables? Hard to say, as this is almost always somewhat system dependant, but it will provide a lot of copper, without so many of the other penalties that go along with glorified zip cords.
John - perhaps then you could comment on any experience you (or any other member for that matter) might have had with Audioquest Hyperlitz Silver in an internally bi-wired 5' Pair. I have used these for several years and have long suspected that they might be the contributor to a sometimes "brittle" sound with forward sounding (especially) female vocals, massed strings and the like. I know Pierre Sprey says anything shorter than 8' sounds worse and that Richard Vandersteen says that internal bi-wiring ameliorates much of the bi-wire advantage.On a lark, I bought a 50' 14 Ga Home Depot cord, cut it into 4 8' pieces for true bi-wire configuration, wired it direct (bare wire, no spades or bananas) and the results have been, in a word, fantastic. I have listened to everything from Steely Dan (Aja) to my 1971 Steinberg/Boston "Planets", to BS&T to D'Oyly Carte Gilbert & Sullivan's - you name it. In EVERY case, the HD's are better. Not only does it fit much of your description: More powerful bass (still very tuneful) & smoother highs but, the soundstage is both more substantial and more coherent. In an almost contradictory fashion, the details are MORE apparent while remaining more a part of the "whole cloth". Depth at the back corners is greater and vocals, (oh those all-important vocals) are way better whether male or female. I keep telling myself I'll "tire" of these as I often have with other "upgrades" but - so far, the keep getting better.
For the record, they sounded great from the get-go, then shitty for a day or so, then better and better.
My system is posted.
Jon - perhaps then you could comment on any experience you (or any other member for that matter) might have had with Audioquest Hyperlitz Silver in an internally bi-wired 5' Pair. I have used these for several years and have long suspected that they might be the contributor to a sometimes "brittle" sound with forward sounding (especially) female vocals, massed strings and the like. I know Pierre Sprey says anything shorter than 8' sounds worse and that Richard Vandersteen says that internal bi-wiring ameliorates much of the bi-wire advantage.
On a lark, I bought a 50' 14 Ga Home Depot cord, cut it into 4 8' pieces for true bi-wire configuration, wired it direct (bare wire, no spades or bananas) and the results have been, in a word, fantastic. I have listened to everything from Steely Dan (Aja) to my 1971 Steinberg/Boston "Planets", to BS&T to D'Oyly Carte Gilbert & Sullivan's - you name it. In EVERY case, the HD's are better. Not only does it fit much of your description: More powerful bass (still very tuneful) & smoother highs but, the soundstage is both more substantial and more coherent. In an almost contradictory fashion, the details are MORE apparent while remaining more a part of the "whole cloth". Depth at the back corners is greater and vocals, (oh those all-important vocals) are way better whether male or female. I keep telling myself I'll "tire" of these as I often have with other "upgrades" but - so far, the keep getting better.For the record, they sounded great from the get-go, then shitty for a day or so, then better and better.
My system is posted.
Thanks,
I thought I had answered your post, apparently, it did not get posted to the board. This happens sometimes, when I am working out of several browser windows at once.All in one bi-wire cables do compromise some of the bi-wiring benefit, so by using separate HD cables, you have upped the ante there.
As for the "minimum length" bussiness, I know of no good reason that this should be a positive, and I can think of a LOT of reasons for things! Could be a lousy amp responding to a short speaker cable in terms of the negative feedback loop, and not enough isolation from HF speaker back EMF, or an RFI antenna length thing in some cases, and Pierre extrapolated to ALL speaker cables on ALL amps.
The more I hear about the HD wire, the more it sounds like it is PE insulated rather than PVC, and this would definitely give a it a leg up over most cheap AC extension cord wires.
The "HD14" surpassed and replaced Omega Mikro passives -- the older model copper foil speaker cables -- which shocked the hell out of me. They won't get much respect here because they're too cheap, but if you have an open mind and twenty bucks (for the 25-foot extension cord plus some Rat Shack spades), you're likely to be real surprised.
If I can come to any conjectures based on upon your posted "system vitae" and that of kavakidd ...always a questionable outcome...the choice of adjectives (stunning, surpassed, replaced) struck me as strong recommendations. It peaked my interest to look further into the products that you replaced.I have not heard the Omega wires, but Loyld Walker's reputation precedes him. I tracked down a link to his Omega Mikro cables and they seem to be a informed effort at taking a unique approach coming out of working with those in the production chain.
Those using his efforts are definitely in the "deep end" that few seldom tread....myself included. I probably need to come up for some air and walk over to my local Home Depot to ask for more their plebian/pratical opinions of copper foil as a cable....or stutter out something like:
"By the way, Sir, can you tell me which aisle I might find extention cords ? I'm going to be needing about 25 feet of it...would it come in black and orange as well? I planning a... Hallow'een party in... 8 months...and...yah !???!!!
I'm not sure which query would get me the the larger of the raised eyebrows but I think that I may need to retract my comments about Paul (Seydor) and his role as an errant sacrifical lamb at TAS. As the Omega Mikro begain over a decade ago(and is still a listed product at MapleShde) that has made the review circles at major publications , it would be interesting if RH or HP care to chime in and comment on their personal opinions of the HD 14 gauge as a sleeper cable ?
PeAK
You are baffling me.Your link RH leads to http://www.theabsolutesound.com/back_issues_117.html
Your link HP leads to http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/740/index2.html
Just returned from Home Depot - 80'on sale for $18.99 (+\-)
Hey, I'll admit I'm on a short budget relative to many audiophiles (love my modded vintage Empire tt yet lust for an all-wood Teres, for example) and B4 long I WILL be trying HD cables between amp and speaks. When I have results that seem adequate I'll post, for good or ill...but if they're good you'd better believe I'll say so!Far, far too much bunk and/or simple unknowns in this cable biz, IMO.
For the record I believe cables DO matter...the idea that they really don't has been disproved completely in my own system AFAI concerned. It'd just be soooo nice to pay less and avoid hours spent sorting through the hype.
At least they matter to me -- I've got a closetful to prove it. In the case of speaker cables alone, the Omega Mikros replaced Mapleshades which replaced Kimber 8TCs which replaced Straightwires which replaced Monsters. Each new cable was compared to the predecessor and won handily. There wasn't as much difference between the Home Depot cables and the Omega Mikros, but I have a couple of "problem" CDs and records I use as references, and there was a clear, if slight, advantage to the HDs in terms of clarity, detail, smoothness and that old standby, "musicality."This is to my ears in my system. JMMV and all that.
I'm going to make a second pair and send it off to be cryoed and then compare again.
Do the HD 14 seem to have PE instead of PVC for the wire insulation as was claimed in an earlier post by a fan?The PE should be harder and more slippery than PVC.
It is PVC, so says the maker. The orange without the black stripe is also the same cable.
I honestly don't know. I've been feeling up my speaker cables, trying to figure out whether they're harder and more slippery (and feeling faintly foolish). Is there any other way to tell the difference?
The Omega Mikro speaker cables are NOT the current versions and are at least 8 years old. I'm pretty sure the current OMs would leave the Home Depot jobs in the dust. But given the cost, I'm not about to find out.
Hello John,I have a few question's for you if you dont mind.The first is what makes a cable a glorified zip cord?Any cable that uses PVC maybe?What are the compromises of the CC89259 speaker cable?I notice you discribe PVC as having a sonic signature that add bass and smoothes out the high's,what is your view on the sonic's of Teflon?Maybe the opposite of PVC?Less bass and brighter high's?Also how does say the cross connected 89259 compare to 12awg zip cord in term's of inductance?
[ The first is what makes a cable a glorified zip cord? ]The basic geometry and the materials. A simple twisted pair is not that different than a straight untwisted parallel run (zip cord) in terms of the overall inductance.
[ Any cable that uses PVC maybe? ]
Nope, that would only be a portion of the reason, as noted above.
[ What are the compromises of the CC89259 speaker cable? ]
Stranded wire, ETP copper, and the total amount of copper, as well as FEP instead of TFE teflon, and finally, flexibility.
It would be better if the center wire was a solid wire instead of stranded, and better if the braid were a foil, however, this is not a huge thing, see:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/t2/messages/415.html
about half way down, for the reason. The small radius involved keeps any strand jumping forces (whatever you wish to ascribe the to) down to a minimum compared to a 12 ga. stranded wire.It would be nice if the CC89259 cable had some 6 nines copper, but the ETP Belden uses is a good grade of ETP, and runs toward the bottom limits of that grade for purity.
Two 89259 coaxial cables Cross-Connected equal approx. 13 1/2 ga. This is not as low in DCR as some cables, but the easy solution is to double up, or Quad Cross Connect a set of 4 coaxial 89259 cables, for even lower inductance, and a total equivalent ga,. of approx. 10 1/2 ga.
TFE has even less sonic signature than FEP, and so would be more ideal.
[ I notice you discribe PVC as having a sonic signature that add bass and smoothes out the high's, what is your view on the sonic's of Teflon? ]
The errors that teflon commits, it's 'sonic signature', is much smaller than any other solid dielectric I am aware of, including PE of any type. The foamed variety has even less than the solid type, and so, has very little deviation from neutrality. What little there is, is along the following lines: a very slight bloom in the midbass, and a small touch of upper range brightness. However, it needs to be kept in mind that these are a fraction of the apparent amplitude of the deviations of most other dielectrics.
[ Also how does say the cross connected 89259 compare to 12awg zip cord in term's of inductance? ]
I have posted this before many times, a search wouldn't have been that difficult.
The best 12 ga. zip cord I know if in terms of inductance has approx. 0.23 uH per foot, the CC89259 has less than 0.067 uH per foot, thus it has less than 29% of the inductance of 12 ga. zip cord.
Thank's John,I appreciate your insight.
Earnest...my interest was peaked when I looked at the "M" after your handle.You can look at Jon's posts on teflon vs PVC and form your own conclusions but I'm curious as to a response you made to a a user's comments regarding your own ELF Custom cables.
Are you seriously thinking about changing your thermoplastic covered cables to teflon ? Have you tried ? Last, is HDPE (high density polyethylene) used in your cable the same as PVC as you called it thermoplastic in your post ?
Hello PeAk,I used teflon in my first generation silver product's,but found teflon to bright.I later moved to a thermoplastic insulation called HDPE(High Definition Polyethylene).I find my HDPE to offer a nice blend of detail without brightness,and also keep bass in tact.It is also less exspensive than Teflon,allowing me to keep prices low.There are several form's of Thermoplastic insulation including,PVC,PE,Polypropylene,and Teflon,they are all form's of plastic.
Thank's,Ernest Farley.
HDPE is typically High Density Poly Ethylene, not High Definition.BTW, the combination of silver and teflon requires a LOT of burn-in, until it fully settles in, it would have been on the bright side.
(HDPE IS TYPICALLY HIGH DENSITY POLY ETHYLENE,NOT HIGH DEFINITION POLY ETHYLENE)
John you are partly correct,HDPE is typically high density polyethylene,but I have a propriety version designed specifcally for my cables that I call HDPE*(High Definition PolyEthylene).Ernest Farley.
Thanks for your comments, Jon...it's a rainy day here and I was sort of hoping that you would put some of your perspective on this "cyclic" THHN cable fad. Definitely beats the "letter to the editor" responses that I find, nowadays in most magazines...has good sound become a commodity?Your synopsys of the cable, quote
"...the overall effect can be quite beguling....seemingly huge increase in the apparent quantity of bass, and of the HF smoothness"
pretty much nailed my description of the THHN signature. My first amp was the highly acclaimed NAD 3020 (that I thought was overrated) and your comments seem to mirror what people thought of that amp, but I find the "beguiling" nature of the THHN cable satisfying over the last few weeks of listening with detail to spare in piano(decay), voice(inflections not heard previously), and the ability to play much louder before the onset of fatigue. Things the 3020 never had. Overall more musically satisfying than what I had heard (altered transport to new Toshiba 3950 at the same time). I do not feel the need to upgrade but look forward to trying out the 89259 speaker cable.
I have notice a number of recent reviews where whole set of cables (power, interconnect, and speaker cables) are tried as an ensemble with great results (Signal Cable [1] [2] and SoundString [3] . Invariably the start of the evaluation replaces one component at a time (typically interconnect) with unimpressive results. Once the power cord is put in, it seems as if the interconnect is a step forward. Ditto for the speaker cable...any thoughts on this as I like to experiment with new power cords beyond the Belden SJT 14/3 power cable?
Quote from Positive-Feedback:
"...Each time I added a Signal Cable product to my system—first power cords, then interconnects, then speaker cables—the level of depth, clarity, and spaciousness improved. To bring this review full circle, I removed the Analog Twos and reinserted the Siltechs. While the excellence of the Double Run speaker cables remained evident, I missed the sense of ease the all-Signal system possessed"
Similar comments were made by Stereotimes on the same cables and also on the Soundstring cables ensemble.
As I already am using the 89259/89248, what DIY power cord would your recommend?
Last, a related question...are you able to listen through to a speaker cable despite what is used for the power cord and interconnect? I would imagine you are not listening to overall synergy but need to mentally subtract what you think the signature of the upstream cable is adding...if it is possible. Can it be that the threesome of Belden SJT, 89259/89248 interconnect and THHN cable make for a great pairing as in the case of Signal Cable/Soundstring.
PeAK
[ I have notice a number of recent reviews where whole set of cables (power, interconnect, and speaker cables) are tried as an ensemble with great results... ]Lets look at it from one end first. Let's say we have one set each of a perfect cable.
A perfect power cord
A perfect interconnect
A perfect speaker cableWe place these into a really good system capable of a very high level of sonic discrimination.
If we now substitute any other cable into the system, we can easily hear it's deviation from perfection, compared to the perfect cable we replaced.
Now let's look at it from the other end of things, less than perfect cables in that system. Let's say they are on the order of entry level cables, rather than OEM freebies, etc., or mid-level models.
Now with a less than perfect cable, it will have it's weaknesses. If you mix up the cables in the system, so that they are all different brands of entry level cables, the weaknesses of one brand will be superimposed on the weaknesses of another brand, and you end up with the sum total of ALL the weaknesses of all the cables in the system.
If you stick with just one brand, whatever that cable does RIGHT, will then tend to shine through more, as it will not be compromised by some other cable somewhere else.I hope you get my point, using similar levels of performance and similar kinds of compromises in the ultimate performance of the cables avoids (or greatly reduces) the "sum total of the weaknesses" additive occurance.
I think that once we get up to a certain level of performance, and the weaknesses are not that strong, you get into much more of a personal choice aspect, what is it that YOU like more than the next fellow.
In this higher level of overall performance, I think that mixing and matching can be a good thing, and allow for greater flexibility in the final system voicing.[ As I already am using the 89259/89248, what DIY power cord would your recommend? ]
On a well tweaked and refined system, with the Belden teflon based audio cables, such as the twisted pair and the CC89259 speaker cables, I would recommend ChrisVH's power cord designs, which are somewhat specific to various components (there being different 'flavors' for different components)
[ Last, a related question...are you able to listen through to a speaker cable despite what is used for the power cord and interconnect? ]
Yes. It is hard, but can be done to a certain extent, especially when one is intimately familair with the system, and has swapped out the cables many times.
[ Can it be that the threesome of Belden SJT, 89259/89248 interconnect and THHN cable make for a great pairing as in the case of Signal Cable/Soundstring. ]
It might be the case, I can not say one way or the other, as this is one of those synergy/interaction/individual system kinds of things that are very specific.
Jon,
I had a chance to listen to some power cables and speaker cables on loan from a friend of mine who has a achieved a good overall sonic balance. (Both are proprietary designs sold to him by word of mouth).A power chord swap was found to clean up some some hardness/distortion in the female voice. The "testerone" bass acting somewhat like a port speaker tuned to impress...not quite right but initially interesting. The Belden SJT was just touch less harsher.
When the updated speaker cables were put in (no details about the construction of these), the bass became less prominent but deeper in frequency and more noticeable differences in level. The big change was in the voice. More expressive in the initial start of the voice (intake of breath in a realistic/less hi-fi fashion) and a better sense of the singer's intent in delivering a phrase (timing and emphasis). Intermingled decay trails now more evident. Everything more relaxed but there. The THHN try to make everything so big that it did not work all at once ...the problem for me now is that I'll be on guard for this signature and hopefully can "will/filter it out" as I listen. Thanks for the listening hints provided earlier.
The cut "Stimela" was used from the Burmester CD.
The THHN was still quite listenable but upgraded cables told me that there was more to be had. I think they might still make a good entry level product for someone wanted a very big sound.
PeAK
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