 
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
|
|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
66.27.125.49
Sorry but I don't believe that!
Follow Ups:
I was at least as skeptical as you are...no longer. An audiophile since 1976 I don't know that I was so amazed by a component since the Panasonic Sa-xr50 amp. I've spent tons on gear, including NAIM, Audio Research, Wavelength, NEW, Antique Sound Labs, Densen, Bryston, etc...The digital amp is a new beast, I think extending the concept of Pace, Rhythm, Timing and Timing. Transparency is phenomenal. Music is exciting and makes you want to listen to more.
Good Listening!
I have a Panasonic SA-XR25 which is a very good A/V amp for the money. But it really can't touch my Bel Canto eVo2i Gen II, (also digital), for precise, transparent, and neutral sound.You get what you pay for: the BC is 10x the price of the Panny.
I have had a Panasonic 45 for over a year now and it will stay with me till I find something better at it's entry price. That is not to say there is nothing better ,but for the $$ and if you match the correct speakers along with some little tweeks it is an outstanding performer for the $$.Synergy is everything in audio so it is what you need and how much you are willing to pay to find the right fit for you.
Good luck!
Its not a pass but for the money its the most organic non tube amp ive heard. For the record i have not heard the panny that is so well recieved but these little things are something special.Do not over analyze, listen listen and listen again. I have made my share of mistakes and i give these a solid ranking for the money
I agree with Kbuzz. I would add that if people don't like the digital amps and prefer analog that's great. That's why vinyl keeps chugging along. I wish the folks that are condemning any of these amps without listening to them would make the effort to listen to them. They could then say they were right or say hey this amp is not bad. One thing is for sure that because of the low costs involved this technology is going to be the dominate in the low to mid fi areas and will have a great impact on hi fi / high end.If this is the future maybe everyone should works towards encouraging all of these technologies to co-exist. I'm not giving up my OTL anytime soon. But for everyday use the Flying Moles are staying in the main system. It's sort of like hauling the kids (or whoever) around in the mini van or SUV and breaking out your convertible (MGB in my case) to tool around in on nice weekends.
Don't any of you tube guys need a summer amp? My OTL is HOT! And it's only 10 watts class A.
I will be trying the $99 Teac A-L700P amplifier, which is a Tripath unit. I don't know if it's in the same league as a Panasonic SA-XR50, but if one wants to fork out the least green to try a digital amp, this is the way to go.I just want to get an idea if there's potential in the technology. I did listen to a Spectron and TACT amp about five years ago. I was not impressed at all with the Spectron, but the TACT had a beguiling "tube-like" character. But I thought it was overly "dark" sounding.
I will do a comparison to the $200 Samson Servo 260, my current "budget" reference. Likely in the "B" system, with the efficient Athena AS-F2 speakers. The Samson made me sell my Marsh A200S amplifier, to give you an idea of the performance level I'm dealing with here.
I got the TEAC several months ago and have ran it over 300 hours. Playing just stock, was disappointing. It never really began to show any real promise, with thin bass and only decent mids and mediocre highs. It only sounded okay, but not great. I understand that the digital amps can take forever to break in, but I just kinda gave up and ordered a JVC RX-F10. Outa the box, it sounded damn good. Way better than the TEAC, and seems to be steadily improving.There's something about the JVC's sound that is appealing, smooth, rich and deep. The highs are still a bit forward and slightly harsh, but I've only got 50 hours on it. I'm delighted at this point. I do wonder about this digital sound. Its wonderful, but its different...it doesn't sound "organic" to me, but it has some sort of clear 'hyper-reality' to it. I do think its really really good. If money were no object, perhaps I would get an expensive tube set-up, but listening to it is quite pleasurable, and I couldn't justify an extra $2-3000 to refine the sound another 5%. But that's just me and my situation right now.
I haven't auditioned the digital amps in my own system, so I can't give a first hand observation, but why are you prejudiced against them before auditioning them? That just seems silly to me. The firms that are producing these units have 100 times the R&D budget of the "audiophile approved" brands that you mention.Remember that we are dealing with a new and different technology here. Traditional amplifier technology hasn't changed much for decades.
But I do hear people saying they are very good for the price range.
Jack
The H2O, to be out soon, has been judged by all who've heard it at my place to be clearly better than any solid state amp, they have heard.
Give H20Audio a break guys. They have produced a dozen or so amps thus far. I heard one and it is truly an amazing amp. I will never purchase a tube amp again. The H20 gives you that incredible analog like mid range, sweet highs, with no loss of detail and lots of jam.The company is in startup mode. They had to change their case design (manufacture of the orginal case took way too long), so there is a month or so wait for the next batch of amps.
Dozen's of people have heard the amps and response has been really really good.
*
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
theaudiohobbyThe H20 is lttle hard to get but not unobtainium. There is a 30 day trial. Become part of the Grapevine.
What information do you seek: contact info, prices, specs? ? Here it is:
There is no web site yet or slick marketing materials. You can email Henry Ho at
mylienho1@netzero.net
He may take a while to get back to you. He has been having email problems with his ISP. The stereo amp is $2,000 and the mono blocks are $3,000 for a pair.
These units are built when an order is placed. I had to wait about 5 weeks due to problems with a metal work subcontractor. Henry Ho is changing subcontractors and revising his packaging for shipping. The difference for the next batch of amps is that the top, bottom and sides will be a powder coated finish while the front panel is anodized. The earlier amps had all chassis sides anodized.
Specs for the stereo amp from a Apogee User Group Forum posting and my questions to Henry Ho:
250/500 watts 8/4 ohms
117dB dynamic range
THD+N 0.006
Output impedance < 0.005 translates to damping factor of 1600.
Power supply rejection ratio > 60 dB
Output offset < 25mV
Dimensions 13"Wx14.5Dx6H, including the feet
Input impedance 8K Ohm
Gain 27dB
Transformer 1KVA
Power supply capacitance 72,000 uF per channelThe amp accepts single ended or balanced inputs selectable with a pair of rear panel switches. There are 2 sets of binding posts for biwiring.
For info on the H20 driving difficult speakers (Apogees), search over here:
http://audioworld.com/cgi-bin/sw/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Apogee+Acoustics+Users+Group&number=1
Here is a link to some pictures including my amp:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=11779&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20
Credit cards are not accepted but you could use one of those checks that many credit card companies provide.If you email Henry Ho, provide a telephone number where he can reach you.
BTW, I am not connected with H20 - just a customer.
Bob
Rome wasn't built in a day.Anywau, I think one of the key points here is the big paradigm shift in amplifier R&D.
H20 Audio took a stock ICEPower module, mated it with a power supply and got big results in a jiffy. That was just a few months ago. No more tuning and tweaking of gain stages and Fets and Bipolars etc etc to dial in the sound.
Look for more and more development of very good sounding amps using prebuilt digital amp modules from the like of ICEPower, LCAudio, Hypex, PowerPhysics, Tripath etc etc.
It's coming whether we like it or not.
from your post, the amplifier is clearly still in development, yet both of you have proclaimed it to be the best when compared to 'actual' products that are available on the open market.well...
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
I have heard the H2O monos at Henry Ho's house on his Scintillas and the system was amazing. For difficult loads like the Apogees, it is a perfect match. I have Scintillas so I am planning on buying them. My wife (who is a musician) even demanded that the Scintillas be removed from the basement and brought up to the living room when we buy this amp. This is something that I thought I would never see in my lifetime! Bob
Not quite correct.Version 1 (with the aluminum case) is sold out.
Version 2 (with the new case) is coming soon.
The marketing and revised manufacturing process is what is in development.
We are just giving you a head's up, that is all.
Theaudiohobby, nobody is trying to convince you the H2O is the next thing better to Mom's Banana Split Pie. We are H2O owners, and that is our opininion. There are others. One deeep pocket audiophile sold his Pannys, and 3 Evo Gen. II's, and replaced them with three H2O's. Another fellow is using them on his Soundlabs. There are several more, most being Apogee owners. The H2O builder, has been hand burnishing aluminum plates for the last few months. Since the builder, Hung Ho, in Virginia, is a fellow Apogee lover, we heard of the H2O first. In the meantime, he has secured the services of chasis builders, printers, and website builders. As soon as that all is running smoothly, amp production will increase dramatically, and you won't have to take our word for anything.
Since the amp hasn't been released yet, and your seems to be the only one out there, you appear to be little more than a shill.
Jack
Who are you talking to, me or "Loud and Clear?" If both, the plural of shill is shills.
So the universal acclaim that this amp has received is based on the sample at your house. And the amplifier has not yet being released in the open market. Great!
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
What is this think about Panny? I have been reading about it the last couple days and don't know if I should change my mind about buying my beloved Aleph 3! If I do, I have more budget spending for a speaker but cannot hear the Panny so, I am all confused... Thanks :)
Many stereo shops offer them. You may hear it at the store and decide right away that it's not the sound you like.
Given that you owned an Aleph 3 and was about to buy another one, I'd say you will be happier with the Aleph. The digital amps are very clean sounding in general (other than the low level digital noise). The sound compares with many high-power solid-state amps, including the Pass X-series. If you heard those, you know what's missing vs. what the Aleph. Not that one is more accurate, just a different character to the sound.
But do give the Panny a try. Two music nuts friends tried it and had a very favorable first impression, but ended up moving on to different amps. Both came with single-ended tube amps in their "background" and the Panny eventually became a bit "boring" for them.
No good or bad. Just a personal preference.
I heard the X series but did not like it. It is just a powerful amplifier to my ears, not musical or tubey like Aleph. I set my heart on Aleph but I am also open to new technology. If I can save some money buying an digital amp (Aleph is actually around $800 on used market), then I can spend more money on my speaker purchase. If this digital amp press all for price/perfomance factor, Aleph is a killer deal for $800 too. I was so impressed with Aleph 3 that I really cannot imagine any amp better than that for even at retail. They maybe bass shy or hard to play certain speakers but overall it always gave me the chills when listening to music.
I think your mind is already made up...
The digital amps are too clinical for you. Trust me on that!
If you want to save, go listen to a pair of Polk R-30's. They are
often discounted to $129/pair and their clarity comes from their
structure as slim two-way floor-standers.
Good enough sensitivity for a 30 watt amp, and a decent bass down
to 40 Hz or so. No wall shaking rock here, but you'll enjoy this combo!
I doubt the more expensive Polks achieve the same sound. The R-30 is probably just a wild fluke!
Buy a Panny with a thirty day return (Amazon has excellent return policy). Let it break in for a couple of weeks, then decide based on the sound. My guess is it stays.
They may be better at precise transparency then some of the better gear, but there not as musical, nor do they have as much slam.When I get my two fully modded 45's back that I am going to bi amp with, I may feel differently,but for now, no there not as good as the top shelf gear when stock.
The analog ICE powered H2O clearly bested my Pass X600 on my admittedly amp eater speakers, on all levels. It is far clearer, smoother, and extended, in either direction. The H2O does not exhibit the same bass slam factor as, say, a big Krell. That doesn't bother me, because I don't think loaded slam sounds natural. The H2O also excels in depth, layering, and width.
How do we buy one of these units?
bill
See Bob Wilcox, above.
It isnt even close in stock form, however, the Panny mods out real nice. It will never have the bass control of a low-output impedance amp like the Pass or Parasound JC-1's or the high-frequency finesse, but it really does deliver 95% of what those amps deliver in the mids and highs. It is really surprising. It is also the quietest amp on the planet. Absolutely dead-quiet when driven from a digital source.
You are not allowed to comment about products you mod. You know the rules. Please stop using the forum to sell your products.
Ric I asked Steve if he could mod my Panny almost two months ago. He refused and recommended I call Boulder cable. So I seriously doubt he is trying to sell mods for the unit. I wish he did because I sure would have given him the business.
There is a thread on Audiocircle(that Steve posted the URL to a few posts down this forum)that describes a mod that Steve started on in June and finally was delivered to a customer on August 11th. And since Steve has not chimed in saying otherwise, it is fairly safe to assume that he IS modding them.
I am a very value conscious person, no less so when it comes to audio, so I was intrigued by all the talk about digital amplifiers on this and other music message boards. I have had a Panasonic SA-XR50 for 3 weeks now and I am disappointed. I have Magnepan 1.6QRs and normally I use a AMC CVT1030 tube pre-amp and an ATI 1502. At some point this weekend I am going back to my old setup. The music sounded so much better.
I don't doubt your opinion at all, but whith your speakers, you would need to bi amp(if bi ampible) whith the Pany to be in the same ball park as your other set up power wise.The Panys are so accurate that they can sound thin compared to just about any other gear because of lack of coloring that we have grown accustomed to imo.
Could you please elaborate more on the difference in between your old setup and the digital one? Did the digital amp sound lean to you compared to the tubes? Which setup would you say is more accurate? Thanks.
Lean would be an accurate description, or thin. I have switched back this afternoon and it was not my imagination. The instruments and voices are much more distinct in my non-digital set-up. With the Panasonic the impression is of a wall of thin sound where it is more difficult to separate voices from instruments. With my tube pre-amp and SS amplifier each string pluck is distinct, clear and floats in the air. The singers are in the room with me.For me, the tube pre-amp justs adds a magical quality to the music. Probably for the Magnepans the 100 watts at 6 ohms is not enough power either. The music seems compressed.
High end audio is not based on how much you spend, it is based on how you spend the money.
...I'm not telling you that.
I have listened to the Panny XR10/25/45, JVC ES1, Sony 70 etc in a dozen different systems or so.They all portrayed a clarity that may be viewed as being a transparency. Bass was generally good. Dynamics were good. Top end was spotty and hard at times (the JVC was okay there)
I could not live with any of them long term though. They lacked that certain organic naturalness that I have heard with many tube and SS systems (but not all). I could swear I could hear the "digital switching". The one exception in a digital amp was the ICEAudio S250. very natural sounding. Needs a decent source and pre though as most good systems do. I did not warm up to the Bel Canto Evo2i GenII. The PSAudio PCA-2 was okay but began to bug me after a few days of listening. So more $$$ in digital amps does not mean certain success either
For those that the Panny et al work well for, I count them lucky because they have mucho $$$ to spend elsewhere now.
If you have not heard any of the cheap digital amps yet, run down to your local big box electronics retailer with a 30 day return policy and try it out. Who knows you may be wowed!
today I opened up the top of the Bel Canto Evo4. Placed 2 RF-57 tuning things on each Tripath chip, one at either end, one on the input board, and one where the ribbon connector links the input board to the motherboard. 8 (one pack) of the Combak RF-57 were applied. Nothing else touched. As the amp warmed up again and I played some music, I started to notice how much more natural and organic it sounded. Closer to "good analog", i.e. real expensive, heavy, upmarket amplification.I honestly think the Harmonix people are on to something with their resonant tuning ideas. I do notice that their Reimyo (sp?) line of electronics receives the highest praise. They're doing something right.
Well known music that I have heard through dealer systems, my older systems, yadda yadda, took on a new life, like Mambo Sinuendo that always sounded a bit cramped and flat just expanded and filled the room, or Grant Green's Carrying On.... Green's guitar just dug in, the emotionality poured through....
Very subtle resonance control appears to be a SIGNIFICANT factor here. I did hear the Evo raw, had some initial misgivings, we tried a heavy damper on top, made it fuller and less bright, but no Eros.
Harmonix tuning makes the sound Erotic in the best sense of the word.
And that's where the main weakness of these devices lies.
Listen on the Tripath to quiet passages at a very low level. Hear that "grunge"?!
These amps might play the one hundred watts well, but they don't have that same finesse at the first watt!
They are outstanding value for someone that's looking for a serious entry level system but no match for numerous quality (but not necessarily expensive!) analog amplifiers.
> > > Listen on the Tripath to quiet passages at a very low level. Hear that "grunge"?! < < <
If there is any grunge, it is at a lower lever than the noise of any analog amp I'm familiar with.> > > These amps might play the one hundred watts well, but they don't have that same finesse at the first watt! < < <
Nonsense. I spent 3-4 months with an eVo hooked to 100db speakers. They are quite good at the first watt. As good or better (but different) than most SETs.
Jack
I heard the commercial Evo2 amp on an excellent setup. I played with the 2x20W demo kit from Tripath (including battery powered). I had the opportunity to listen to many examples of these amps at Tripath demo room (which is quite impressive!). I also talked with a person from Tripath, who's familiar with what those chips do. It confirmed to me what I was hearing.
I'll admit that the "artifacts" are at very low level, but they're there. You just can't hide what's there!
As for analog amps, some do have considerable noise, but it's not the noise LEVEL that bothers me. I can listen to an amp with considerable hum and enjoy every minute of it (but it won't be my first choice either...)
What really bothers me is what the digital amps do to TONE when playing at low levels. This is a different kind of distortion, and to my ears worse than IM (i.e., mixing products). Maybe this is a subjective statement. I listen to extremely low level nuances. For me, harmonic structure is what makes the music "complete" and realistic, and those natural harmonics are at levels close to the noise floor.
My ear and brain can tell hum from harmonics but have a tough time coping with pseudo-random noise that's not "white noise" in nature.
There are many so-called "high-end" analog amps which I can't live with, because they come across too "clinical" or too euphonic. That's not music for me.
Can I live with an Evo or the Panasonic? Probably so, but neither would be my first choice!
when the Evo4 is run in bridged mode you have double the Evo2 processing power, 2 tripath chips in place of the one in the Evo2... my understanding is that each doubling of a processor results in a 3db reduction of "computation noise"... Accuphase used to have a brute force implementation where they had something like 8 (or was it 16) Burr brown DAC chips per channel... with the right preamp you could, potentially, run an Evo4 as a monoblock with a hyper bridged configuration and gain an extra 3 db in the process.Another thing to consider is that while chips are information processing systems, they are physical systems too. Some of that low level grunge may be the result of the chip's own self exitation as it converts an analog audio signal into radio frequency pulses. I believe those fine vibrations contribute to the chip's overall sonics. With the RF-57 tuning buttons in place, both the resolution of low level information and the quality of it was markedly improved. I was hearing little wispy tones and nuances that simply weren't there in the stock amp. I also noticed that as the amp played for a while this quality of "organicity" would improve to the point where I wasn't thinking about amplifiers or hardware....
Unless bridged systems are very well balanced, they'll add up their noise. That noise is a product of the algorithms that were built into the design and no vibration control will reduce those.
But the chip and board vibrations may be reduced, obviously.
"What really bothers me is what the digital amps do to TONE when playing at low levels. "You are lumping every Class D amplifier into the same group. I will imagine, that ICE, TI, Sony, Sharp,Yamaha, Tripath etc all have different signatures. Your brush seems rather broad, as the implementations are very different and it unlikely that their tonal signature will be similar accross the board.
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
I agree that the sonic signatures would be slightly different, due to differences in processing. However, all digital technologies share common problems, like clock jitter. They are no different in that regard from DACs. Some people are more sensitive to such distortions, some people less.
The bottom line is really the issue of your priorities. If you values dynamics as the most important aspect of realistic sound reproduction then the excellent efficiency and seemingly infinite power reserves of digital amps just cannot be matched.
I'll admit that I'm willing to sacrifice loudness and bass slam for the utmost tonal neutrality and coherency (by way of excellent instrument separation). My preferences limit me to small amps (just a reality, not a law of nature) and reasonably efficient speakers (and not necessarily horns). I hear sonic degradation (in long term listening) from amps with with parallel devices and bridged or push-pull configurations. Some people don't - or don't care.
Similarly for digital artifacts. Just different trade-offs!
My analog ICE loaded H2O monos, powering 1 ohm Scintillas, produce a music scene that equals the ear's ability to discern instrument separation. I can literally hear the individual violins in an orchestral violin section. Each instrument maintains correct tonality, micro inflections, macro dynamics, and relative size plus placement at all times.
> > However, all digital technologies share common problems, like clock jitter. < < <
Agreed, but jitter is easily addressable-its been known about and dealt with for a long time now. Out of curiosity, do you have the Jitter measurements of any of the digital amps?> > > The bottom line is really the issue of your priorities. If you values dynamics as the most important aspect of realistic sound reproduction then the excellent efficiency and seemingly infinite power reserves of digital amps just cannot be matched < < <
With speakers that are 100db efficient, the last thing I needed was a seamingly infinite power reserve. I can get that with 20 watts. There are always trade offs, and I certainly agree that everyone has different sonic priorities, but I'm not sure I agree with that assesment. I had great dynamics with my SETs, and I don't really consider that one of the eVos better sonic traits. The eVo was a step up in neutrality, tone. timbre and harmonic structure.> > > I'll admit that I'm willing to sacrifice loudness and bass slam for the utmost tonal neutrality and coherency < < <
As will I, though I suspect we may have different defintions of coherency-possibly neutrality too. Either that or we hear differently.> > > hear sonic degradation (in long term listening) from amps with with parallel devices and bridged or push-pull configurations. < < <
As a *gereneral* rule, so do I.
As you say, there are always trade offs, and we all must choose what serves our needs the best.
enjoy,
Jack
Yes, I bet we hear slightly differently.
As for jitter, I can hear it in somewhat imprecise positioning and size. The amps don't suffer as much from the jitter as DACs, maybe because they constantly vary the operating frequency. The one-bit DACs are the most sensitive to jitter, which affects a partial sample.
It will be complicated to measure jitter directly when the operating frequency varies all the time at an unknown rate...
Perhaps it can be related to the variation in harmonic distortion on a fixed tone. Maybe we have to ask the source!
"As for jitter, I can hear it in somewhat imprecise positioning and size"thanks for further clarification on the subject, the digital amplifier I own definitely does not suffer for this artifact rather one of its stand out qualities precise positioning and image size, it rendition of chimes and such like is very good, tonally accurate and precise positioning within soundstage. just my observations.
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
I am not sure I agree on the instrument separation and tonal neutrality, but thanks for the clarification anyway.
It a'int all about the music I also want excellent sonics!
I would expect different digital amps to sound quite different-even different tripath or ICE etc. to sound different.I find the tone of the eVo to be quite consistant despite volume.
As for the "grunge" at low levels, it would not surprise me if different tchnologies have their own distortions-in fact I would almost expect it. That said, they don't seem to bother me-perhaps because I have lots of vibe control, which seems required.
Jack
I thought I was hearing artifact crud on the evo2, the evo4 run as a two channel job lowers the grunge factor considerably.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:
Top of Page ]
[ Contact Us ]
[ Support/Wish List ]
[ Copyright © 2024, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
