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In Reply to: Panasonic sa xr 45, how does it work, sound, vs PS Audio posted by Tom C on January 03, 2004 at 13:01:18:
This is a funny topic. I can't help but continually shake my head while reading some of these replies! I own the PS Audio HCA-2 and PCA-2, love the sound they offer, and recently had a friends' broken in XR45 in home to play with, which was about a month old. You might think it foolish to compare $4000 and ~70lbs worth of gear to a $300, 9lb receiver, and....you'd be completely right. There was no comparison; if the PSA gear is class A, the panny gets a C. Great grade for the price, I'll admit that is sounds better then $300 worth of gear should, but let's be realistic, folks! Worst thing about this machine is that you can't get even halfway decent sound from any source but CD-direct, so Vinyl and SACD lovers (like myself) will NOT be fans of this product.The Panny sounds more like the Bel Canto on the topend and below 160hz, and like Carver ZR1600 in the midrange, speaking tonally, yet still nowhere near their leagues either, overall. The PS A is much richer, more dynamic, FAR superior bass, is quieter, images better and can drive the stuffing out of any speaker. The panny is clearly a digital amp with the digital amp strengths in amazing PRAT, bass, detail and clarity, but it's very rough around the edges, thin sounding, rough up top, can't drive difficult loads (87 dB full range speakers), does better with small monitors (90dB VR 1's), missing ambient cues to indicate hall size and is compressed at high volumes. It is a product that one can tolerate for lack of glaring faults, or would be great in a very tight budget, but to compare it to dedicated separates, especially in the $10K plus system I used it in, was a complete waste of time, IMO. Personally I couldn't live with the panny long-term, and I suspect others will find the same. To folks that have heard the panny and like the distinctive sound I highly suggest a audiophile oriented digital amp, such as the Bel Canto, Spectron, EAR or PSA amp, to name a few, to really see what digital amps can do....and, to think, this is just the beginning!
On the subject, if you'll allow me to rant, I've personally grown absolutely disgusted with the "bang for the buck" mindless drone BB postings, it actually has turned me off to many audio BB's, as I now rarely visit any online sites and take every thing read now with a elephant sized grain of salt. There is far too much wish fulfillment in "budget" audio enthusiast crowds, it seems. I've gone through a dozen budget products that where touted to be "better then players X times as expensive" (I HATE that pharase), reported "giant killers' (hate that term too); such as the Philips 963 (supposed to better Meridian-hah!), Jolida JD100 (supposed to better the NuVista - hahaha, not even close!), Panny XR45 (replace $8k worth of gear! Maybe gear bough in 1963!), Adcom GFP750 (Levinson killer! Please!), a long list of DIY cables and one really popular DIY dac (that I won't mention for fear of a stoning), and each time I auditioned them against admittedly more expensive and well regarded components I was GREATLY let down.
I'm frankly sick of wasting my time, energy and money on chasing so-called bang-for-buck gear that exists in the cheap (under $500) realm, for, as far as I've seen, it just doesn't exist but in the minds of the susceptible. I don't think I am alone in my sentiments, either. One clearly don't always get what they pay for in audio, yet, with more money and careful component selection, better sound is readily available in proportion to what one spends. The dollar dilemma becomes a more obvious truth the longer you are in the hobby, that is, the better trained your ears/brain become. I do fully believe in a law of diminishing returns, but the cheap and cheaply built gear touted by the budget-freaks gets nowhere close to pushing that limit for me....and I admittedly wish it did, which is why I chased after it to begin with.
Sorry, budget freaks, but you've lost a potential follower with all the overblown hype. How about tuning the enthusiasm down a bit, hold fewer on-line circle-jerks, and replacing them with a trace more objectivity, just for the rational and innocent readers among us.... :)
Follow Ups:
1. Who said it bested the PS Audio?
2. Does better with small monitors? 90db only?
3. Can't drive difficult loads?
4. Budget freaks - are you kidding?
5. Who the hell would hype pansonic - and why? To what end?Loads of evidence to the contrary, from a number of posters who have far more expensive equipment than your PS Audio setup, my friend - how long did you have the amp, and what combo's did you try - or is this all from one listening session?
Your details are short, but your wind long - can you reverse that and be constructive? If you can be summed up by saying the PS Audio pre/power walks all over the panasonic, we'll, no freakin' kidding - I should hope so!
I'll leave it to others to query you on those prior points, because it's all been said, I'm really trying to shut up now - but you should read the variety of posts in their entirety before contradicting so many of them by so many others - or are you right and they all wrong?
I too am looking forward to hearing the likes of PS Audio, Spectron (especially), Bel Canto, Solar, Tact and the like - but I'd be surprised if I got off my ass in the next year to do so now, despite being able to afford it - after all, improvements in digital technology will come fast an furious in the next couple years...
Finally, if my assertion that there was some question as to the HCA's inclusion in Class A was actually for the Bel Canto, my constructive apologies...
the PS Audio stuff side-by-side in the same system.IMHO, you on the other hand are the one shooting your mouth off offering no relevant information on this subject.
By your own admission you probably won't have anything to add on the subject for a while, "I'd be surprised if I got off my ass in the next year to do so now".
I would offer the old saying that you should take a dose of your own medicine, but after your comment, "Your details are short, but your wind long - can you reverse that and be constructive?", I think it might be better to suggest that you take the whole damn bottle of medicine!
By the way, while you're reading all those threads, you'll notice I extended an inviation to my home in Vancouver another poster who constructively posted a comparison between PS and Panny.If we get together, we'll each have our own recordings, I'll have my Quad 989's amongst other speakers, and maybe over a few days we'll try a few different combinations - listed what worked, what didn't, why, and on which recordings there were clear deficiencies, and in what area.
And in this case, we'll have my Quad 989's which Sam Tellig (I believe) reported was heaven with the PS Audio (and linn klimax, and, and, and...)
Hope you'll stay tuned for that - I have no doubt the PS will put me into a liplock, you'll love it...
No relevant information? I just didn't want to re-type what's been typed 100 times by others on this page already, his questions were answered by owners with real experience 100 times over. Doesn't anyone read the posts before they respond any more? Doesn't anyone search what's been said already?Ok, just for you, I'll answer all my own questions strictly by summarizing what's been typed 100 times over in the last week on various panasonic threads (do a search and read!), summarizing what a ton of others (actual panasonic owners) have typed previously, many right in this very thread - here ya go:
1. Who said it bested the PS Audio?
Nobody
2. Best only with small monitors? 90db only?
Are you kidding? Speakers I can think of
offhand from happy owners include B&W 801's (modified - 3 ohm min),
Dynaudio BM6 (4 ohm), Maggie MG12 (4 ohm), two different
users with Stax electrostatics - there are many more,
just do a search for panasonic and read
3. Can't drive difficult loads?
See above
4. Budget freaks - are you kidding?
I have about $20k worth of equipment at
home right this very instant, and am dwarfed by many
others who have much more $$$ worth that also love the
panasonic, so they have good comparisons - do a search
for panasonic, you'll see. I can afford whatever I
want, and my Quad 989's are at home waiting, not to
mention a quad stack, a naim stack, a sunfire stack,
quad 57's, tons of vintage, and on and on and on
5. Who the hell would hype pansonic - and why? To what end?
I would - when it sounds like this, for
$300, and you get a preamp, 100W poweramp, DAC, actually
6 channels @ 100 watts, equals $50 per channel. To what
end? I only wish this happened 15 years ago, when I didn't
have the money, and had to eat kraft dinner for 2 years
just to get my fisher tube amp, and Quad ESL 57'sThen you go on to quote me and throw it back "Your details are short, but your wind long - can you reverse that and be constructive?, I think it might be better to suggest that you take the whole damn bottle of medicine!" - can you read man? How much more specific can I be that what's in this thread alone? Much less 100 others - do a search and read, please! I did a search of your posts, on at least 10 occasions in the last 200 posts you've told OTHERS to do a search first! In this case, your suggestion applies "I think it might be better to suggest that you take the whole damn bottle of medicine" - do a search of your own posts for the word "search"
And as regards to detail, I didn't even hit on the main points that Nietzsche didn't mention - what speakers did he use that it didn't drive? What speakers did he use at all? What CD's or records did he listen to? What were there deficiencies compared to the PS Audio? What power cord used for the panasonic (again, do a search - universally agreed it makes a MAJOR difference). That's what you call informative? I won't even get into "constructive".
If you want to see some fair, controlled, open shootouts go to audiocircle.com and learn. Nothing left to chance, everything disclosed.
If stereophile did even a brief comparison like that, you'd be all over them!!!
Believe me, nobody feels enough has been typed about the panasonic more than me, and this will be the last thread I participate in unless there's a genuinely new topic about the panasonic at hand - because it's all been said, and nobody is reading before posting any more. Your response, and the one I'm typing now, could have both been avoided if you searched for panasonic, and read - and you'd see plenty from me and others.
I figure that since Nietzsche hasn't answered since, he did do a search and is reading - thank you for that Nietzsche, if that's the case.
And neither Nietzsche nor I need to do a search. I assume Nietzsche has read all of the Panasonic posts on AA as I have.Don't you get it. I wasn't really encouraging you to post any further information. I was trying to get you to see the hypocrisy of your reply, including your condescension:
"Loads of evidence to the contrary, from a number of posters who have far more expensive equipment than your PS Audio setup, my friend - how long did you have the amp, and what combo's did you try - or is this all from one listening session?
You busted Nietzsche's chops because his post wasn't some Stereophile-like comparative analysis and his equipment wasn't as expensive as someone else's. And I have seen you do this to others here too! Who are you to criticize him or anyone else for posting his impressions and thoughts as though they were somehow incomplete or inadequate.
Everyone here is entitled to post as much or as little as they like without your critical review and your snide remarks about their equipment. Quit taking yourself so seriously.
I made a resolution to not reply to posters clearly needing medication, especially those crusading for an empty cause, but it looks like I'll break that one too, but only if you promise to settle down a bit, take a few deep breaths and go pet a puppy....ok then.Speakers in question are full range Von Schweikert VR3's with upgrades, 87dB, 6ohm nominal, played at my desired, LOUD listening levels in a 24x18x12 room. The Panny quits in my setup. It compresses and clips at moderate levels, dies at a level that the HCA-2, eVo2 and countless other amps I have owned didn't even flinch at, just swelled with power. I'm a power junky and a bass head, very demanding music the bulk of what I listen to. PC used was the same for both, either a PS Audio Lab, a DIY or a stock Rubber 14ga cable. I try not to make fun of the "magic cable" theorists anymore, but must say I'm pretty unamused by all the "add this magic _______(fill in the blank with 'tube,' 'cable,' 'isolation device' 'etc.' and then all will be perfect" posts, they don't phase me at all--Too much experience to the contrary for that BS.
See the review I posted on the PS Audio amp or the Marantz DV8400 to see what my system and musical tastes consist of, both of which are readily available to you, although my system is constantly changing and propably not the same as listed in the reviews.... If that doesn't answer your questions, shoot away. The reason that I didn't write a full review of the Panny is that I don't feel it to be worth my time for the many reasons stated originally, just as I'm feeling it wasn't worth my time to post to this thread at all right now....
PS. I hadn't "answered" sooner because, frankly, I couldn't decipher what the heck was in your previous post, and I'm still not sure that I understood the above post very well, either, so, by all means, please keep helping Fiddler and myself with our "reading" skills....
Why didn't you say all that in the first place? Still a little short on details as to your more sweeping conclusions that are at odds with so, so many other posters (owners), but it's a start. If the panny just all out "quit" for your needs and in your setup, aren't your conclusions a little sweeping?"played at my desired, LOUD listening levels" is not on my list of needs, so there's one major difference. "I'm a power junky and a bass head" - ok, that's important to know. I mean, if the panny just all out quit for your needs, did you really get a fair shake at what it can do? Not everyone has to drive inefficient speakers to deafening levels. How do you think it would sound with a pair of Spendor SP100's at 90db? And what about the magnepan, dynaudio, B & W 801 owners that are happy? I don't think claiming 90db+ only for the panasonic was anywhere near justified on the basis of this one trial, so much at odds is it with so many other posters, and so sweeping is it in condemnation. The PS audio had more balls! No surprise!
As for 'tube,' 'cable,' 'isolation device' 'etc.' - I'm with you on those, don't have any of them, save for the Xstream and some power conditioning that I'm not currently using.
Needing medication, are you kidding? Have you read your own posts? You even apologized for one, while doing the same thing over.
Honestly dude, I'm just trying to be balanced and constructive and once you've read all my posts you feel otherwise, please post the phrases and comments for me. You won't find any rant from me like the angry one you made. But I am getting tired of this.
Finally, as you can see I've invited another PS Audio poster to my home in Vancouver for a proper test, possibly over a few days, with my Quad 989's. If you lived in Vancouver you too would be cordially invited to my home for the PS vs Panny side by side test - honest you would, I'm not kidding. You could bring your favorite reference recordings, whatever accessories you like, and have-at my 989's. I'm looking forward to it, me - my panny XR25 - and my Xstream Statement will be there with bells on.
I have no doubt the PS Audio will put me in a liplock, and I'm sure you'd love to be there to see it. However I think my XR25 (with 8 weeks use now) and Xstream Statement will prove a more worthy competitor than you might think - I listen to it hours per day, and have no worries.
If you're ever a-travellin through Vancouver, page me. I'm a happy music lover, and easy to get along with. And a few hours with Quad 989's is always fun - who knows, by then I may own the PS if the first showdown proves that successful - according to Sam Tellig, the HCA is heaven on the 989's. We'll see!
**PS Audio Lab, a DIY or a stock Rubber 14ga cable. I try not to make fun of the "magic cable" theorists anymore, but must say I'm pretty unamused by all the "add this magic _______(fill in the blank with 'tube,' 'cable,' 'isolation device' 'etc.' and then all will be perfect" posts, they don't phase me at all--Too much experience to the contrary for that BS.**What were the differences you heard with different power cords or are you saying you didn't hear any differences with different cords?
Sorry, I don't like to review cables, as the changes they make, to my ears, are always most trivial, especially given the price involved. Differences exist, but I've rarely found myself using phrases like 'clearly better and clearly worse' when I evaluate PC's, because everytime I do I have a friend switch cables on me when not looking and they stump me most of the time, in spite of my convictions. I ultimately choose the cheaper cable and live happily with it....Sorry, I'm not a cable freak, don't believe the cost is justified for "tone controls" and prefer to stick to one well made type of cable and work around it.Regarding the Panny, the PC's "upgrades" in general improved the bass noticabley as others indicate, added a trace more detail and maybe extended the dynamic range, but nothing to get excited about and difference where small between them. Sorry, I'll NEVER be one to post more then a few sentences on cables, they just don't matter to my ears, thankfully, just as those who can't hear or can't justify the difference between the $300 panny and thousands of dollars of seperates should be thankful....FWIW, I actually just recently cut $1400 worth of cabling out of my main system (the though of having that much money in cables shook me as I sat thinking of it one day), and you know what, I don't miss them at all, rather, I put that money in better components and now have clearly improved sound, just less jewlery.
I reread my post (rant) and it may seem too negative, possibly misconstrued as condescending, even, and I did’t intend that. I don't mean to be negative, I hope that everyone is happy with their gear, regardless of budget, and that everyone enjoys the music coming from their own system....yet, please, set aside the insecurities, don't feel compelled to justify a purchase by shoving your own gear down other people’s throats, especially when done unethically, with unfounded claims, excessive hyperbole and boundless exaggerations that seem to be the hallmark of “bang for the buck” gear reviews and their proponents.....
All I have to do is quote you on this one (bolds are my addition):set aside the insecurities , don't feel compelled to justify a purchase by shoving your own gear down other people’s throats , especially when done unethically , with unfounded claims , excessive hyperbole and boundless exaggerations that seem to be the hallmark of “bang for the buck” gear reviews and their proponents
Keep those anger management sessions going, I'm seeing great progress here!
Seems you do not like to read bargain basement statements.The Panasonic unit is a better than average bargain basement receiver. you listen to other receivers ,which I try not to with few exceptions,in most cases I always get a run from the room feeling.Getting a unit under $300 that is clean is a challenge to find.
With comparisions to Bel Canto and Carver unit it cannot be all that bad. To say it out does a Krell might over stating it's ability as I prefer a lowly $3000 Passive setup that I used,but I like the features and sound the Panasonic has.
Great value and a look at what might be coming down the pike in value components.
I have no problem with bargin basement statements in general, just the ones that stretch credibility or are downright fraudulent. My comments where not driven by comparisons to recievers, as you suggest I should have done. For sake of getting a proper perspective here, I quite looking for a simply "clean" sound in audio reproduction when I moved beyond reviecers, I don't even use or think of the term when reviewing a component for that matter, so maybe we do have a different frame of reference and different things that are important to us in high-fidelity audio/music. My comments are based on the scattered claims abound that this Panny competes with very expensive seperates (we've all heard that line before)in 2ch/music only operation, such as those from Bel Canto, Krell, Ps Audio, to name a few mentioned, which IMNSHO is pure fantasy and wishfulfilment, at least in my experience.....That's my gripe. ;)
For those looking into more expensive setups and synergy issues especially where speaker driving capability is concerned the unit will not be the answer for all.Some buy stuff just for the sake of spending without ever knowing what the hell they bought. Amazes me!You have alot more to play with for equipment than others at entry level prices it sounds and to pretend that a $300 receiver is going to give you SOTA sound is stretching it.OTOH I do think that the unit has bested notable stuff from Rotel to mention one contender in the low range which is quite a statement and to even be compared to such stuff going for a few X's the cost is quite an accomplishment.
I always try to find stuff that can be tweeked to bring it to a higher level of performance and that is in the works.It might not be a Krell or other highend notable,but then again it is a great entry level unit.
I think some might step the boudaries of the extent to which the unit's capabilties are.I agree,but I also tout the unit for what it is, a great entry level unit which does alot of things better than one would imagine a $300 unit can and I do not like receivers
BTW. I think I can put together a more musical sounding system of course,but how much more am I going to spend. Atleast double the price I think.
"to pretend that a $300 receiver is going to give you SOTA sound is stretching it."Please re-read my reply. These are not my sentiments, conversely, it is my area of contention exactly! Folks have claimed this reciever to be superior to 2-$8K work of well regarded electronics, and that is NOT my take at all, not by a longshot, simply stated. As we can see by the thread topic, some folks have been lead to believe that this $300 panny could be in the league of the HCA-2, eVo2 or other well regarded amps, due to the over enthusiastic reviews, which bothers me a bit as I don't like seeing people being mislead. I believe you share some of my feelings here, or at least your realize, as you put, that " some might step the boudaries of the extent to which the unit's capabilties are." My gripe exactly. Nothing more, nothing less.
bg
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