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In Reply to: Had both in my system for the past week . . . posted by J North on January 03, 2004 at 15:07:21:
Everyone feels that digital in sounds better than analog in...less conversions. Also what transport you use and what digital cable you use can make a huge difference. My friend Mark at Zcable says that unless you have one of his ZSleeves on a super digital cable you have not heard the Panasonic.....Also he says the more line conditioning you use on a digital amp the better....ie, you need a super line conditioner and super power cord with Zsleeves to lower the noise to where you can really hear what it does....of course, all the money on the line conditioning/digital cables, etc. takes it to another different price point.....anyway....I am always interested in what something is capable of, not just what an ordinary implementation can do. I am not suggesting that even if you used the best transport, isolation, digital cable, line conditioning, ZSleeves, etc. that the Panasonic would be the best thing in the world...but remember....you are comparing a $300 thing versus a $1600 amp versus whatever the BC28 costs.....so....What if you did all those things to the Panasonic: tweaked transport/digital cabling/line conditioning/ZSleevers and brought it into the same price range as the other components....then which one would be better? I don't see how anyone can expect a stock $300 Panasonic to beat multithousand $ units. The guy at Boulder Cables is working up some mods on the Panasonic and from what he has posted on his Audio Circle forum the Panasonic with a few hundred dollars worth of mods sounds much much better. So, are we just going to use this thing in ordinary ways or are we going to tweak it and use the best transport, cabling, line conditioning and mods to it that we can? Its up to you. Be conservative or experiment. A better transport will work better with any DAC, better line conditioning will make all things sound better, better power cords will improve all gear and ZSleeves seem to be fairly universally favored and well as better digital cables....anotherwords....even if you did all these things....you don't have to keep the Panasonic...these things will help your system no matter....anyway....I just want to see someone take it to the max....petal to the metal. Trouble is, most people who have lots of money in their system, who can afford lots of ZSleeves, the BPT 3.5 signature, great transport, etc. would not think a $300 PANASONIC would be worthy in their system. I am sure someone will take the Panasonic all the way out and see what it can really do....Will it be you?
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Follow Ups:
This is exactly why this BB is called an "asylum".I reported on my results (my system, my ears, etc etc) that I preferred the HCA-2 and BC28 to the XR45 with upgraded power cord.
This is in response to someone asking for a comparison of the HCA-2 to the XR45. So far, I am the only one here that has reported on a direct comparison of the two. Who knows, maybe the HCA-2 and BC28 *beat* (ugly word) the amps that others have compared the XR45 to by a *wider* margin than the XR45 beats them. Is everything relative?Others chime in that I must have configured something wrong or was listening wrong or forgot to sprinkle magic fairy pixie dust on the XR45 and the XR45 is somehow *really* better just because the XR45 bettered Their amps in Their systems with Their ears.
Has anyone followed the saga of rpl@surfnet? His favourite amp changes week to week depending on what tweak he applies. And this is between 3 VERY different topologies (SS/digital/tube). Are you guys asking me to try everything possible to make the XR45 sound *better* to me than the HCA-2 or BC28?
So, we have a bunch of audiophiles that really like the XR45. But only after a 6-week burn in and upgraded power cord. Then it is killer. No, wait, it needs an awesome transport and awsome digital cable and awsome power conditioner. Then, you really hear what it is all about. King of the Hill! No you can make it MUCH BETTER by throwing $300 of new parts in it. MUCH BETTER implies some sort sort of defficiency, don't you think?
I would like to know what that defficiency is. No one here (except me) seems to admit to one.
Ugh!
J North,
Appreciate your feedback and thanks. I am following the excitement over the Panasonic SAXR45 and inputs like yours are valuable to me (and probably many like me who just read but dont post). In my experience, the breakin period is merely a reflection of bad dielectrics/capacitors. Teflon also takes a long time, but it does break in within 100hrs or so. Like Ric has pointed out, since the Panasonic is using digital inputs, it surely will benefit from good transport. Also, power cords and power conditioning I feel are absolutely NECESSARY to get the max out of high end audio. I estimate the accuracy of a component, by how well it recreates the recording space/ambience (sometimes this 'soundstage' can be exaggerated by components, usually upsampling players). How do you think the Panasonic fared in this regard ?
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In my system , the XR45 had noticabley less air & ambiance than the BC28 and somewhat less than the HCA-2. Now of course, the BC28 has tubes so some may claim this to be "artificial" and "coloured".On its own the XR45 sounded fine, having great articulation and clarity. Compared to the others, it sounded more mechanical, but not really unpleasant to my ears.
As mentioned previously, the other place the XR45 fell down was accuracy on tonality and timbre on various instruments, especially on the higher end of the scale. Piano, strings, cymbals, brushes etc.
High frequency issues seem to be the most common complaint of digital amplifiers. By no means is every one reporting it, so it may be some sort of system synergy concern.
I must also add that I am using 4-ohm 89db full-range floor standers. I am not sure of their impedence curve. The XR45 says 6 to 8 ohm speakers on the back. Most people say 4-ohms s/b fine. I don't know if this is true or not.
I will be comparing the XR45 to the HCA2 and BC28 in a few weeks in another system and see if the results are similar.
One other comment re "air & ambiance" that I have posted before.Have a read of the stereotimes review of the TACT Audio 2150 digital amp. The reviewer thought ultimate musicality came with the addition of tubes in the chain (rather than a direct digital feed).
Also, Solar HiFi feels the need to offer a tubed input stage option to its digital amplifier.
You can draw your own conclusions from the above. Others will draw different ones.
J North,
Thanks for the responses. I dont like artificial stuff in any form, any where. I do like my MMF-5 turntable though. The main reason I like my analog rig is that - it is transparent. It sounds REAL. That is my main criterion for my audio components. I think the Panasonic cannot drive difficult loads. Sony's new digital drive receivers also seem to be plagued with these problems. We have to wait for some more time for digital amplification technology to mature. I am pretty sure the capacitors and the low-pass filtering at the output stage use components that are not optimal quality which is what is affecting the overall quality of the sound from this amp. I am really trying to simplify my system. I have $600 worth of PSAudio Ultimate Outlet+Power cords feeding my $400 CD player 963SA now and a $200 worth of interconnect to the Int. Amp. I am just try to get out of this cables/accessories madness. I cannot use stock cables/interconnects because I know that what I have now make a difference. Anyways..thanks for your feedback.
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Feel better now? he he. I don't own a Panasonic but I do know how it is built and how most all things are built. Yes, it has lots of problems/defficiencies, just as most $10,000 products do. Does it have a binding post?..then it is distorting! Yes, binding posts suck. You can bypass them by running the wires through a hole in the chassis next to them and wrap the wire around the post for a wire to wire clamp....so every power amp in the world can be upgraded by bypassing the binding posts....just one out of many, many things that can be done to most everything. Sorry, have been modifying and manufacturing high end gear for over 25 years and have yet to see a component that could not be made to sound better....at least somewhat. A $300 Panasonic? Wow...it needs lots of help. But, apparently, according to many, is very very good stock. I am always trying to push the envelope and hopefully help a few people who also are not satisfied with ordinary construction and implementation. If you feel threatened by all this tweaking stuff, I'm sorry. All I know, is that it works....It brings music into the room....This is what I want. I know that no one component is the magic silver bullet....it has to be tweaked and tweaked and tweaked to get it where it COULD be. This is what separates the good components from the ordinary....great circuits yes, but the implementation is paramount. And implementation implies power line conditioning, all wires, damping, all interactions with other components, etc. And when an amp is merely taking digital info in, then the transport and digital cable are now also very paramount.I am sure you are right about what you heard. No problem there. I just want someone to take the Panasonic where no Panasonic has gone. PanasonicTrek.......the farthest reaches of the the aural universe...he he....
Ric,I don't disagree with you one bit. Tweaking/modding does and can improve the sound from audio components. Other times it can make it worse or just trades one compromise for another. Exciting stuff but stressfull as heck at times no doubt.
My point is how can you make a component MUCH BETTER (from a sound quaility perspective) that some people view as being some sort of pinnacle in its stock form? Why is there this big RUSH to modify the XR45? WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY WRONG WITH ITS SOUND?
I have given my list. That Nietchze fellow has as well.
I think the XR45 needs to be taken to another level (or two).
Have at it.
On the contrary, I thought the responses were largely professional and most if not all merely asked questions and brought up relevant points as owners with considerable experience with the component in question. I think this board has worked well, nobody did anything but bring up valid points as owners.I certainly didn't disagree with your findings, and simply related my direct experience as an actual owner which I'd posted on the relevant dates/times in the past. With regard to breakin, you in fact made light of it "I'll have another listen to the XR45 sometime when the snow thaws I guess" - hey, that's OK, it was kind of funny - but I do own it and have listened to it for hours per day for 8 weeks running now.
The post you're directly responding to merely asked questions, made suggestions, and clearly admitted that tweaking the panasonic all to hell raises it's price point considerably, and raised a number of synergy issues as did others. Never once did he doubt your conclusions either that I can see - the closest he came to that was saying "remember....you are comparing a $300 thing versus a $1600 amp"
The "Dubious Measurements" point brought up by 2 others was valid - it was directly related to the panasonic as reported by another board, and you brought it up.
gmood simply said "Lacking air and ambience? I got to scratch my head on that one. Must be system synergy" - valid, if he hears it in his system to a higher degree than his Music Reference RM9 MKII and it's not evident in your shootout, he merely questioned if it was really in the source or not, without doubting your findings. Fair enough right?
I think it's legitimate that owners would question shorter term shootouts if they get different results based on longer term use. You're right though, some people defend their brands and purchases to the end - I've never understood that - but why anyone would be brand-defending panasonic is beyond me, it's hard not to be embarrased actually.
And surely you know it does take a while to get your room/system combo right, hell when I added the PS Audio Statement power cord, so much more bass was there that it would have required a speaker movement normally - if I had that option. I specifically waited 7 weeks to do that so I'd be SURE I could tell what difference it made - an opportunity not afforded by a shootout. I guess you don't believe that based on your comment "But only after a 6-week burn in and upgraded power cord" - ok, but I was there.
I don't doubt the HCA-2 performed better in your system and don't believe you'd have any reason to lie, nor did ANYONE claim anything like that - you gave the panasonic it's due and I think we all thank you for the comparison, and are really not surprised by it. I personally hope PS Audio does put out an all digital integrated with the HCA-2 as the amp, I'll be first in line to audition it, and let me be the first to officially thank you for taking the time to post and answer regarding your testing!
So like, hey, thanks again, and where can I get some of that pixie dust?
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6weeks for burn in?Did the component change or your ears?They just put in a new power plant near us so i have to wait 6months for the generators to break in.With all due respect aren't we getting a little phychodic?I did find some pixie dust though:^}.Regards Bob
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You quoted that a vacuum tube PREAMP takes 200 hours to break in, at 10 hours per day that's 20 days. That's 3 weeks. Mine definitely wasn't even on 10 hours per day for music, but I did leave it on a blank tuner station at low volume as often as possible. Your quote:> Tweakers' Asylum, Re: new to tubes, need help (0.00)
> Posted by 3fd on 2002-03-17, 05:34:25 (67.24.90.33)
> Hello,Try breaking in the unit for at least the 100 hours.
> I personally think 150 to 200 hours gives you a better break inSo 3 weeks is OK for a preamp, but 6 weeks is outrageous for a power amp (well, and pre, and DAC in the panasonic). Where does the line cross from reasonable in your estimation to outrageous? 4 weeks? 5 weeks?
Regarding your point "Did the component change or your ears?" - hey man, that's a good point with respect to short term shootouts vs owning a component and listening daily for hours per day - every component has a personality (sadly), and it takes a while to acclimatize - hell, it takes quite a while just to get through one's reference recordings, the less obvious character a component has the longer it takes to pin it down. The truer to the source, the less character a component has.
I'd take you up on the pixie dust, but shipping powerder across the border to canada is probably not wise these days.
Lets see,24 hours a day=8.3+ days not 20 if you want to get technical.After 30 years of this at times silly game i have found ss if made properly never took that long to get to it's best,my opinion only.As you well know we have our own opinions and quite frankly i've been back and forth between ss and tubes and found tubes to behave differently than ss for breakin.I am happy for you that you have found what pleases you at a very low cost.You like what you like and i like what i like and i doubt either one of us is the end all to what the perfect sound is,atleast i know i'm not.I would like to know where the hell Canada comes into play as i'm not from there not that is a bad thing.Regards Bob
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I was wondering if you have come up with a digital chip amp "choice" to work up a commercial design of your own, going back some months; ...I am about to build out one of the new Tripath 500W evaluation boards which are supposed to be designed for the upcoming digital-direct controller board Tripath announced they were intending on releasing later this year. The circuitry has been minimalized and "corrected" by Stan Warren. One thing I have decided is that a digital-direct type connection with the amp is the only type of amplifier I will be using in the future. And yes, tweaked even abit, the Panasonic is a real winner.
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Latest I heard, he is using the B&O ICE modules that Acoustic Reality and Jeff Rowloand use in their amplifiers. From what I gather, there are no direct-digital inputs into these modules yet.
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