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In Reply to: Had both in my system for the past week . . . posted by J North on January 03, 2004 at 15:07:21:
Speaker choice should be an obvious mention here and is with many other amp comparisons. Granted, some people will always prefer a certain sound and amp/speaker combination to another, digital or not. I am sure you are confident with your assesment but how were the tests conducted? What speakers, cables and length of time was used for listening? How was everything positioned? Was everything left plugged in? What size/type of room and music? Sorry, I have just witnessed too many "shootouts" that have listeners not even hearing the music but listening for this bell or that bell. Many of us "audiophiles" don't even really listen well. Your conclusion is pretty vague and seems influenced by a reported lower measurement at 2.2khz. (My Naim gear may not have the extension of alot of gear but what is does as a whole, for music, no other system I have heard can do).I wonder if most variable digital outs from a DVD or cd player into separate digital amps would sound as good as the integrated Panny controlling the volume from most similar digital sources requested. Most DVD or cd players would not even give you that option with a digital amp. All the Panny needs is a digital output. Something to consider.
It should speak volumes that this $300 multi-channel amp has the balls to be compared to high end gear and also that it has much more versatility than any of the above mention amps. Great Home Theater is just a freebee!
I haven't cared to try my Panny with my Neat Mystiques vs my Naim Nait 5/CD5/FC2. I don't think I need something better than that system for musicality, nor do I think the Panny would better it for my listening preference. That's me. Someday I may try it.
The botom line is this: Is the SA-XR45S a giant killer? Considering you can buy it for $300 and it also offers superb multi channel sound, there is no argument (lets keep it in perspective about what is actually a giant to the Panny). Does it sound better tonaly than some of the integrateds and separates under 3K? Yep, without a doubt based on what I have owned, maybe higher, I don't know. Just imagine what the next generation Panny or similar designed unit could do! Now wait til XXX builder puts it all in a 1/2" inch thick case, puts the """" name on ot and sells it for 3K! Then we'll believe it, right?
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Follow Ups:
Synergies are a bitch, you're obviously aware of it because you own what is reported to be one of the alltime great synergies, in your Neat Mystiques + Naim Nait 5/CD5/FC2. I too have a Nait 5 and CD 5 at home I may keep them just to try a pair of Neats.Given that one of my favorite features of the panny is synergy risk elimination (ie a DAC, pre, power in one box, eliminating many interconnects and separate power cords and tweaks) it greatly saddens me that transports make a difference (they're only supposed to spit numbers), digital cables make a difference (they are only supposed to transport numbers), and power cables make a difference (which I didn't really believe until recently), and potentially power conditioning, and speaker cables. Just dandy. Luckily I'm having great luck with a cheap coax cable (Monster, $60 cdn) and quite cheap fatass monster cable speaker wire (strange stuff, looks fat but has hollow plastic tube in the middle - says "Monster Cable High Resolution Precision Standard Time Correct with Magnetic Flux tubes and LPE Dielectric" on it - whew!), and a monster cable optical - as you can see I was shopping at my local mass electronics store.
With all these synergies, no wonder we can never win as audiophiles - I never could do the Rubik's cube either, but at least it was free to try!
I've found much better luck with the coax digital input so far than the optical digital, and found my cheaper monster cable optical better than a newer audiophile brand (but only on a very short comparison - I got audiophilia nervosa and switched back after 5 hours; the panny always sound pretty bad just after powerdown though, so I could be wrong and didn't want to wait to find out). That annoyed me enough that I said screw it for now, and just listen to digital cable via coax - having too much fun listening to new music hours per day to care.
At least the panasonic eliminates the most costly synergy issues, DAC/Pre/Power all in one (well, and tuner but haven't tried it yet), but sadly it's easy to spend well, well over $5k on the rest of it. I hope we can come up with a consensus on the best budget combo for newbies to break into this hobby with, and then maybe a "reasonable" ultimate combo. I really wish more companies would put out reasonably priced, dedicated TRANSPORTS - it annoys me to have to buy all the DAC circuitry when I just need a bit-spitter. I guess the good thing is that once you buy all those accessories, if you buy a newer all digital integrated from Bel Canto, Solar, Spectron, PS Audio, etc in the future - you can just slide it into your existing configuration and hope one digital to another is reasonably compatible. (I would be interested to hear if your CD5 works if you try it - maybe some of it's PRAT is in the transport mechanism?!)
One thing I will say though from direct experience so far, the more full range a speaker you use with the Pansonic the better - I tried a pair of Epos ELS-3 in my large-ish room and it practically sheared my head off with white glaze. No fault to the Epos, my speakers are 13' apart and I sit 17' away. The woofers in the speakers I am using are bigger than the entire Epos and it's box - and better yet they keep the massive bass frequencies out of it's dedicated 5" midrange driver. Your ROOM has the largest signature of any component on your system, I move often enough to know that the same stereo in a different room is a different stereo. Similarly with the panasonic, your speaker's bass control and articulation can make a big difference, keeping the bass in it's place and in control allows all else to shine through, and jive with PRAT the likes of Naim. Again though, your room plays the biggest role there. In reality, PRAT is in the music, not the equipment - Naim just lets it through (although some have accused them of slight manipuations).
Probably nothing everyone doesn't know already, but worth remembering - if you're using a bookshelf, it's probably fine in an appropriately sized room, but it needs to be capable of at least LS35/A bass type deception, otherwise your ears will be a ringin', because none of the rest of the spectrum is caramel coated. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'd love to hear the panasonic on a pair of Spendor SP100's (dedicated midrange driver, bigass woofer to keep the bass out of the mid driver's way, british-style politeness) - I may trade my way up to a pair when I get home some weeks or months from now, but in terms of full range performance and clear aritculate bass control, my Quad 989's will surely be up to the task - don't know about my room though. With the speed/holograhpics of the panasonic though, if I could get away without massive planars, believe me I would.
In the end the best way to eliminate synergy issues is to strive for neutrality every step of the way (like we all don't know that right), but still it doesn't always seem that's the goal. If god handed down the perfect amp - straight wire with gain - as many would hate it as love it.
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Yes, my "conclusions" apply only to the XR45 I had. It gave similar results in two different systems so the results apply to only these two particular systems & setups. Speakers were not moved between tests, speaker cables were the same for all amps, etc. Two other listeners gave similar conclusions. Listening was conducted over a 3 day period with 2 seperate sessions per day. Music ranged over female & male vocals, jazz, pop, etc.We listened both on a macro "musical" level and on micro "details" levels. The micro level pointed out where the Panny was strong (bass, mids - clarity & articulation) and where it was weak (tonality & timbre of certain instruments). The so-called "artifical" air and ambiance that we heard more of with the other amplifiers can be argued about day and night about being accurate but let's just agree that is a personal choice issue pertaining to our particular systems and tastes.
Our conclusions were reached before I read about the lower measurement at 2.2Khz (in fact the XR45 had left the house before that) so that had no influence on my analysis.
I am not sure where your are going with the digital volume control statement. Are you hypothesizing that the XR45 has a superior digital volume control? Maybe someone more knowledgable with the internals of the XR45 can let us know where in the circuit the volume control is implemented.
The XR-45's MC HT capability is of little use to me right now as I have no plans of moving in this direction. It is also of limited use for MC SACD and DVD-A as the analog MC inputs on the XR45 are reported to be inferior to its direct digital input. There are also reports that the XR45 runs out of steam running a 5 channel full-range speaker setup, but that could be wrong.
Getting back to the air/ambiance/bloom issue, it is interesting to note that in the Stereotimes review of the TACT 2150 amplifier (same technology as the XR45), the reviewer found ultimate musicality with tubes inserted in the audio chain. Solar HiFi is also going to offer a tube input stage to their digital amplifier to take it to another level. Again, all dictated by personal taste.
What really confounds be is that you will not try the XR45 in your Naim system. Can you please expand further? Do you think the XR45 is a better amp?
Again, I must repeat, the XR45 is a darn good integrated amplifier that I could certainly live with and would choose if I had less than a $1000 to spend or wanted to setup a MC HT system that I occasionaly used for 2-channel listening.
More than anything, the XR45 is an exciting sign of things to come. I wonder if Panasonic will introduce something new at CES?
Let's try this again, my initial response never posted for some reason J North. Hopefully my first response doesn't also show up later.Thanks for providing the details on the listening sessions. It sounds like your assesment was very well conceived.
My point on the digital volume issue was that the Panny does it for you. No need for a unit with a variable digital output which is another cost savings. I use mine with a $130 Panny DVD player, it sounds great but I'm sure it could sound better. I just like to reap all the benefits of the cost savings. No tweaks, nothing marketed as high end or special in this system for me except maybe the Daline speakers which are decent but not over achievers.
I'm not sure why you would be confounded about me not trying it against my Naim system. I didn't buy it to replace it nor do I think it could. I have never been happier with the system synergy of the Naim/Neat combo. To me, it is my holy grail after many years of trial. I don't want to replace it. It's kinda like my wife in that regard. No more comparisons. I am very happy with her also! (no I don't need another system in that regard either :-). I bought the Panny as a cost effective way to get decent sound in our family room where my wife could use it without me hovering over her and I don't worry about the kids either. I like it for ocassional movies and for TV, it does a great job in that respect also. I haven't driven all channels hard but power is not an issue for me. I can enjoy my music on it, that is what matters. It does all the things other high end gear I have owned does and has some of the musicality I like about the Naim gear. Namely clarity and focus.
Yes, you are right. We should all be excited that this is where things are headed. The next item in line should have huge expectations behind it. This Panasonic unit doesn't have to be the "beat all" miracle item but your $300 goes a heck of a lot further than I thought it ever could.
I can just be happy with that.
Great points RMckoy..In my system .. hell it sounds tonally better than 8000.00 in other front end gear!
Took it over to a friends home yesterday. He has owned Krell,Mac 275,Musical Fidelity,and many many other peices of gear including well over 50 pairs of speakers! I wish the people on this forum could have seen the look on his face when I fired up the little Panny.All the time before I hooked it up..he was saying it can't be that good! Well after 2 hours of listening ..He said I am going to buy one tomorrow not before trying to buy mine first since it has some burn in time on it.
Moral of the story ...always keep an open mind !
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