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In Reply to: Had both in my system for the past week . . . posted by J North on January 03, 2004 at 15:07:21:
Lacking air and ambience?
I got to scratch my head on that one. Must be system synergy.
I got air and ambience for days around here.This things got more air than the Music Reference RM9 MKII tubed amp I used to run. If it's not in the cd your not going to get it with this reciever.It's seems to give you what's there and nothing more. I guess this is what I like about it. It doesn't sound artificial.But I understand some like the artificial sound.
Follow Ups:
Well, sometimes with all the hype and frenzy that surrounds new discoveries, especially with something so cheap, I get nervous about proclaiming it's virtues so much. The vision I fear most is the picture of someone running out and buying one of these puppies, and hating it. Surely it will happen, it's easy to make a good amp sound bad, but near impossible to make a bad one sound good.So, for an A&A (air and ambiance) reality check, especially with regards to if it's on the source as you point out, I spent the last 3 hours on the smooth jazz station generously provided by my local cable company, SPDIF coax output right to the panasonic - via a rather cheap and long Monster cable coax.
Even after 8 weeks listening (and the last 3 days with the PS Audio Xstream statement - said to be already cooked by my dealer), I shake my head with virtually every new song - taking time out and listening specifically for "air and ambiance", I can't figure that one either. I mean, my speakers are 13' apart and 17' away, and the image projected by so many smooth jazz songs is easily cast about 6' outside each speaker, and with the addition of the Xstream a couple inches from my nose and a couple feet behind the speakers (which are sitting on the 1' high brick footing of a massive fireplace, their backs a few inches from a massive brick wall - thus they project outward it seems). Each speaker is on a tripod of tiptoes, as is the pansonic.
So, with all respect to Julian Hirsch (who loved measurements), a 13' + 2*6' stage width (25' total) and about 20' deep ain't bad. The fact that it's all tied together with a sense of air is amazing - it's not just the odd sound effect, it's a whole. Coherence in spades, but again the coherence was ever so magnified by the Xtream, as I also commented on in the Cable asylum. Pop songs with effects that used to seem like ping-pong effects now seem to move across the whole soundspace more gracefully. To my mind, coherence is a result of a LOT of things going right all at the same time. With many smooth jazz recordings, the topmost percussion is what dances before my nose - yet it can be easily "seen through" to all that's going on behind it. Holographics that scare the hell out of me (since it's unfamiliar music) are quite regular - drum whacks and the like. As for ambiance, whenever echo is used in smooth jazz or popular music, you can literally hear each reverberation in it's smooth decay - and you can often hear it while all else is going on - fast amp. Still though, in that regard, it ain't no tube amp - but I'm not sure which is more accurate. It's possible the massive brick wall behind my speakers is adding some slam too.
As I pointed out in the cable asylum - with the sweeping strokes that are so commonly heard across the soundspace in smooth jazz are incredible, you can almost feel the wind blowdrying your hair. I will say though that with the XR25 the highs I suspect are a little more "white-ish" than with a good tube amp, and from what I'm surmizing, the XR45 might improve in just that area. I listened with the treble set to -1 (digital domain tone controls!) more often than not until about 7 weeks in, and now with the Xstream almost never. Sometimes loud blatty horns are offensive, but if someone was really playing a horn 17' away pointed straight at me, I figure there would be some discomfort at times.
To add to this, I believe in stereophile there was some controversy about inclusion of the HCA-2 as a class A component, as some complained if IT'S highs - so go figure. But the folks at stereophile are used to all the best equipment, rooms, and have plenty of opportunity to produce synergies, so if there's anything amiss surely they'd find it. I think we'll learn more as more people try various speaker combos, my results are all with monster cable coax and speaker wire, and 25 year old speakers I bought at 16 - although they do seem very efficient, have a dedicated bigass woofer, midrange 5" driver, 1" tweet, and 1" horn-type-thing. They're not even mirror imaged for god sake! Maybe accurate speakers will be less forgiving, a definite consideration.
What I think may be missing in the panasonic compared the PS Audio is image height - the XR25 it has some, but my memory of the best tube amps the highs were more "see-through", less white, and had far greater height and sparke. In the source? Don't know. Similarly, the lowest regions of bass could seem to come from 10' beneath the floor - not so in my current setup, nor is it like the case of my Quad ESL 57's, bass could sound more like someone's car subwoofer a block away (although, that was with my beloved Fisher 7591 tubed receiver). Not so in my current setup, but maybe my quads will be different (one would hope). Major room considerations there, of course.
My Vancouver dealer carries PS Audio, maybe someday he'll let me check it out - the PS may well be better in this regard, and pristine highs are one of the hallmarks of great amps, and quite often the major complaint of Stereophile/TAS - so clearly it ain't an easy thing to pull off.
All I can say is this is all very exciting, and the future looks pretty damn good - I wish I could be bothered to go out and purchase an XR45, but I just can't seem to get off my ass, and refuse to go through another 8 week breakin - although, others seem to think that's all in my head. Oh well!
What you say about it being on the source is a prime consideration - in smooth jazz, believe me, it's on the source! And if anyone else's mileage varies, don't give up to soon and assume it's a tin piece of crap - the only thing you can't change is your room, so experiment. The sound is in there!
Anyway, more than enough has been said, espeically by me, so I'll be shutting up for a while - and if the panasonic works as well as I think it will with my quads, maybe a long, long while...
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If your dealer is Signature Audio, try to have a listen to the Pathos New Classic and compare it to the Panny.I would like some further input from someone real world on this unit.
You and I live in the same town my friend (when I ever get there). You're welcome to come by my home any time if I ever get back, hear my little panny on my bigass quads. I think with my experience in the house I'm in now though, the first think I'll do when I get back is move (in which case much equipment I have could be re-evaluated).Ken at signature is a great guy - honest as the day is long I think.
And yes, the Pathos is on my watchlist - for my Quad 57's, but hell I'll try it on the 989's too. Wouldn't dare put the panny on the 57's - one or the other would be destroyed - and despite my love for the panny, I don't know how it would do there.
I'm really trying NOT to be a perennial equipment chaser, and feel I'm closing in on my last setup going down the digital path - I may be making a purchase from Ken when I get back, and the PS Audio is higher on my list, thanks for that! I also feel that I've got the digital "feel" from the panny (however inferior), and components that work with digital (Xstream), I can just slide a new system in.
Damn though, I wish PS would put out an all digital integrated - I loooove eliminating boxes...
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Thanks longtimequadowner for your great post! I feel the same way about the XR25 not planning to hunt the XR45. And until I hear something better that doesn't cost $7000.00 the Panny will always have a place in this home. I think I will change my status to music lover because being an audiophile is hard work and causes one to be knit pickey. You spend more time worrying about whats going on in the music than enjoying it. I think it's time for me to enjoy and let these other guys run this endless road of no return!
"I believe in stereophile there was some controversy about inclusion of the HCA-2 as a class A component, as some complained if IT'S highs - so go figure"FWIW, that was the criticism of the Bel Canto eVo200.2 amp (well founded, IMO, from my own listening) and NOT ever mentioned as fault of the HCA-2.
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