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In Reply to: Panasonic sa xr 45, how does it work, sound, vs PS Audio posted by Tom C on January 03, 2004 at 13:01:18:
And liked the HCA-2 better. Better tonality, less sterile sounding, more fun, more musical, easier to settle down and listen to. It also rocks when you want it to.
The XR45 had a distinct "clarity" to it, that was interesting to listen to (in the lows and mids), but lacked air and ambiance in the mids to highs. This may be a function of it being down 3db at 2.2Khz but I am only speculating here.
Having said that, I preferred the Blue Circle BC28 Hybrid amplifier I have been auditioning to both "digital" amplifiers. The sound of strings, piano, cymbals, brushes etc was so much more natural with the BC28. The XR45 was worst here with the HCA-2 somewhere in the middle.
The XR-45 had been burned in for a steady 2 weeks play and had an upgraded power cord.
I ran the BC28 and HCA-2 with various combinations of a Meitner pre-amp, PS Audio PCA-2 pre-amp and direct from a DVD/CD player with digital volume control. I also used a Sony XE-670 SACD Player and a Meitner iDat DAC.At under $1,000 the XR45 is darn good. I would take it above the NAD C370 I previously owned. If I had more to spend, I would prefer the Unico integrated (that I had previously), and the HCA-2 and BC28 I had here last week. My friend who owns the XR45, prefers the HCA-2 over the XR45 as well (in a direct comparison).
Of course system synergy is key, as well as musical taste and the usual other audiophile criteria.
I would'nt be to taken with the hype that the XR45 is "all digital". There still has to be a conversion from the redbook digital scheme to the digital switching amplifier module. It is not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination and that is why you don't see everyone doing it. It is often easier to convert to the analog domain and feed that to the amplifier module.
good luck with your decision.
Follow Ups:
Everyone feels that digital in sounds better than analog in...less conversions. Also what transport you use and what digital cable you use can make a huge difference. My friend Mark at Zcable says that unless you have one of his ZSleeves on a super digital cable you have not heard the Panasonic.....Also he says the more line conditioning you use on a digital amp the better....ie, you need a super line conditioner and super power cord with Zsleeves to lower the noise to where you can really hear what it does....of course, all the money on the line conditioning/digital cables, etc. takes it to another different price point.....anyway....I am always interested in what something is capable of, not just what an ordinary implementation can do. I am not suggesting that even if you used the best transport, isolation, digital cable, line conditioning, ZSleeves, etc. that the Panasonic would be the best thing in the world...but remember....you are comparing a $300 thing versus a $1600 amp versus whatever the BC28 costs.....so....What if you did all those things to the Panasonic: tweaked transport/digital cabling/line conditioning/ZSleevers and brought it into the same price range as the other components....then which one would be better? I don't see how anyone can expect a stock $300 Panasonic to beat multithousand $ units. The guy at Boulder Cables is working up some mods on the Panasonic and from what he has posted on his Audio Circle forum the Panasonic with a few hundred dollars worth of mods sounds much much better. So, are we just going to use this thing in ordinary ways or are we going to tweak it and use the best transport, cabling, line conditioning and mods to it that we can? Its up to you. Be conservative or experiment. A better transport will work better with any DAC, better line conditioning will make all things sound better, better power cords will improve all gear and ZSleeves seem to be fairly universally favored and well as better digital cables....anotherwords....even if you did all these things....you don't have to keep the Panasonic...these things will help your system no matter....anyway....I just want to see someone take it to the max....petal to the metal. Trouble is, most people who have lots of money in their system, who can afford lots of ZSleeves, the BPT 3.5 signature, great transport, etc. would not think a $300 PANASONIC would be worthy in their system. I am sure someone will take the Panasonic all the way out and see what it can really do....Will it be you?
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This is exactly why this BB is called an "asylum".I reported on my results (my system, my ears, etc etc) that I preferred the HCA-2 and BC28 to the XR45 with upgraded power cord.
This is in response to someone asking for a comparison of the HCA-2 to the XR45. So far, I am the only one here that has reported on a direct comparison of the two. Who knows, maybe the HCA-2 and BC28 *beat* (ugly word) the amps that others have compared the XR45 to by a *wider* margin than the XR45 beats them. Is everything relative?Others chime in that I must have configured something wrong or was listening wrong or forgot to sprinkle magic fairy pixie dust on the XR45 and the XR45 is somehow *really* better just because the XR45 bettered Their amps in Their systems with Their ears.
Has anyone followed the saga of rpl@surfnet? His favourite amp changes week to week depending on what tweak he applies. And this is between 3 VERY different topologies (SS/digital/tube). Are you guys asking me to try everything possible to make the XR45 sound *better* to me than the HCA-2 or BC28?
So, we have a bunch of audiophiles that really like the XR45. But only after a 6-week burn in and upgraded power cord. Then it is killer. No, wait, it needs an awesome transport and awsome digital cable and awsome power conditioner. Then, you really hear what it is all about. King of the Hill! No you can make it MUCH BETTER by throwing $300 of new parts in it. MUCH BETTER implies some sort sort of defficiency, don't you think?
I would like to know what that defficiency is. No one here (except me) seems to admit to one.
Ugh!
J North,
Appreciate your feedback and thanks. I am following the excitement over the Panasonic SAXR45 and inputs like yours are valuable to me (and probably many like me who just read but dont post). In my experience, the breakin period is merely a reflection of bad dielectrics/capacitors. Teflon also takes a long time, but it does break in within 100hrs or so. Like Ric has pointed out, since the Panasonic is using digital inputs, it surely will benefit from good transport. Also, power cords and power conditioning I feel are absolutely NECESSARY to get the max out of high end audio. I estimate the accuracy of a component, by how well it recreates the recording space/ambience (sometimes this 'soundstage' can be exaggerated by components, usually upsampling players). How do you think the Panasonic fared in this regard ?
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In my system , the XR45 had noticabley less air & ambiance than the BC28 and somewhat less than the HCA-2. Now of course, the BC28 has tubes so some may claim this to be "artificial" and "coloured".On its own the XR45 sounded fine, having great articulation and clarity. Compared to the others, it sounded more mechanical, but not really unpleasant to my ears.
As mentioned previously, the other place the XR45 fell down was accuracy on tonality and timbre on various instruments, especially on the higher end of the scale. Piano, strings, cymbals, brushes etc.
High frequency issues seem to be the most common complaint of digital amplifiers. By no means is every one reporting it, so it may be some sort of system synergy concern.
I must also add that I am using 4-ohm 89db full-range floor standers. I am not sure of their impedence curve. The XR45 says 6 to 8 ohm speakers on the back. Most people say 4-ohms s/b fine. I don't know if this is true or not.
I will be comparing the XR45 to the HCA2 and BC28 in a few weeks in another system and see if the results are similar.
One other comment re "air & ambiance" that I have posted before.Have a read of the stereotimes review of the TACT Audio 2150 digital amp. The reviewer thought ultimate musicality came with the addition of tubes in the chain (rather than a direct digital feed).
Also, Solar HiFi feels the need to offer a tubed input stage option to its digital amplifier.
You can draw your own conclusions from the above. Others will draw different ones.
J North,
Thanks for the responses. I dont like artificial stuff in any form, any where. I do like my MMF-5 turntable though. The main reason I like my analog rig is that - it is transparent. It sounds REAL. That is my main criterion for my audio components. I think the Panasonic cannot drive difficult loads. Sony's new digital drive receivers also seem to be plagued with these problems. We have to wait for some more time for digital amplification technology to mature. I am pretty sure the capacitors and the low-pass filtering at the output stage use components that are not optimal quality which is what is affecting the overall quality of the sound from this amp. I am really trying to simplify my system. I have $600 worth of PSAudio Ultimate Outlet+Power cords feeding my $400 CD player 963SA now and a $200 worth of interconnect to the Int. Amp. I am just try to get out of this cables/accessories madness. I cannot use stock cables/interconnects because I know that what I have now make a difference. Anyways..thanks for your feedback.
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Feel better now? he he. I don't own a Panasonic but I do know how it is built and how most all things are built. Yes, it has lots of problems/defficiencies, just as most $10,000 products do. Does it have a binding post?..then it is distorting! Yes, binding posts suck. You can bypass them by running the wires through a hole in the chassis next to them and wrap the wire around the post for a wire to wire clamp....so every power amp in the world can be upgraded by bypassing the binding posts....just one out of many, many things that can be done to most everything. Sorry, have been modifying and manufacturing high end gear for over 25 years and have yet to see a component that could not be made to sound better....at least somewhat. A $300 Panasonic? Wow...it needs lots of help. But, apparently, according to many, is very very good stock. I am always trying to push the envelope and hopefully help a few people who also are not satisfied with ordinary construction and implementation. If you feel threatened by all this tweaking stuff, I'm sorry. All I know, is that it works....It brings music into the room....This is what I want. I know that no one component is the magic silver bullet....it has to be tweaked and tweaked and tweaked to get it where it COULD be. This is what separates the good components from the ordinary....great circuits yes, but the implementation is paramount. And implementation implies power line conditioning, all wires, damping, all interactions with other components, etc. And when an amp is merely taking digital info in, then the transport and digital cable are now also very paramount.I am sure you are right about what you heard. No problem there. I just want someone to take the Panasonic where no Panasonic has gone. PanasonicTrek.......the farthest reaches of the the aural universe...he he....
Ric,I don't disagree with you one bit. Tweaking/modding does and can improve the sound from audio components. Other times it can make it worse or just trades one compromise for another. Exciting stuff but stressfull as heck at times no doubt.
My point is how can you make a component MUCH BETTER (from a sound quaility perspective) that some people view as being some sort of pinnacle in its stock form? Why is there this big RUSH to modify the XR45? WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY WRONG WITH ITS SOUND?
I have given my list. That Nietchze fellow has as well.
I think the XR45 needs to be taken to another level (or two).
Have at it.
On the contrary, I thought the responses were largely professional and most if not all merely asked questions and brought up relevant points as owners with considerable experience with the component in question. I think this board has worked well, nobody did anything but bring up valid points as owners.I certainly didn't disagree with your findings, and simply related my direct experience as an actual owner which I'd posted on the relevant dates/times in the past. With regard to breakin, you in fact made light of it "I'll have another listen to the XR45 sometime when the snow thaws I guess" - hey, that's OK, it was kind of funny - but I do own it and have listened to it for hours per day for 8 weeks running now.
The post you're directly responding to merely asked questions, made suggestions, and clearly admitted that tweaking the panasonic all to hell raises it's price point considerably, and raised a number of synergy issues as did others. Never once did he doubt your conclusions either that I can see - the closest he came to that was saying "remember....you are comparing a $300 thing versus a $1600 amp"
The "Dubious Measurements" point brought up by 2 others was valid - it was directly related to the panasonic as reported by another board, and you brought it up.
gmood simply said "Lacking air and ambience? I got to scratch my head on that one. Must be system synergy" - valid, if he hears it in his system to a higher degree than his Music Reference RM9 MKII and it's not evident in your shootout, he merely questioned if it was really in the source or not, without doubting your findings. Fair enough right?
I think it's legitimate that owners would question shorter term shootouts if they get different results based on longer term use. You're right though, some people defend their brands and purchases to the end - I've never understood that - but why anyone would be brand-defending panasonic is beyond me, it's hard not to be embarrased actually.
And surely you know it does take a while to get your room/system combo right, hell when I added the PS Audio Statement power cord, so much more bass was there that it would have required a speaker movement normally - if I had that option. I specifically waited 7 weeks to do that so I'd be SURE I could tell what difference it made - an opportunity not afforded by a shootout. I guess you don't believe that based on your comment "But only after a 6-week burn in and upgraded power cord" - ok, but I was there.
I don't doubt the HCA-2 performed better in your system and don't believe you'd have any reason to lie, nor did ANYONE claim anything like that - you gave the panasonic it's due and I think we all thank you for the comparison, and are really not surprised by it. I personally hope PS Audio does put out an all digital integrated with the HCA-2 as the amp, I'll be first in line to audition it, and let me be the first to officially thank you for taking the time to post and answer regarding your testing!
So like, hey, thanks again, and where can I get some of that pixie dust?
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6weeks for burn in?Did the component change or your ears?They just put in a new power plant near us so i have to wait 6months for the generators to break in.With all due respect aren't we getting a little phychodic?I did find some pixie dust though:^}.Regards Bob
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You quoted that a vacuum tube PREAMP takes 200 hours to break in, at 10 hours per day that's 20 days. That's 3 weeks. Mine definitely wasn't even on 10 hours per day for music, but I did leave it on a blank tuner station at low volume as often as possible. Your quote:> Tweakers' Asylum, Re: new to tubes, need help (0.00)
> Posted by 3fd on 2002-03-17, 05:34:25 (67.24.90.33)
> Hello,Try breaking in the unit for at least the 100 hours.
> I personally think 150 to 200 hours gives you a better break inSo 3 weeks is OK for a preamp, but 6 weeks is outrageous for a power amp (well, and pre, and DAC in the panasonic). Where does the line cross from reasonable in your estimation to outrageous? 4 weeks? 5 weeks?
Regarding your point "Did the component change or your ears?" - hey man, that's a good point with respect to short term shootouts vs owning a component and listening daily for hours per day - every component has a personality (sadly), and it takes a while to acclimatize - hell, it takes quite a while just to get through one's reference recordings, the less obvious character a component has the longer it takes to pin it down. The truer to the source, the less character a component has.
I'd take you up on the pixie dust, but shipping powerder across the border to canada is probably not wise these days.
Lets see,24 hours a day=8.3+ days not 20 if you want to get technical.After 30 years of this at times silly game i have found ss if made properly never took that long to get to it's best,my opinion only.As you well know we have our own opinions and quite frankly i've been back and forth between ss and tubes and found tubes to behave differently than ss for breakin.I am happy for you that you have found what pleases you at a very low cost.You like what you like and i like what i like and i doubt either one of us is the end all to what the perfect sound is,atleast i know i'm not.I would like to know where the hell Canada comes into play as i'm not from there not that is a bad thing.Regards Bob
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I was wondering if you have come up with a digital chip amp "choice" to work up a commercial design of your own, going back some months; ...I am about to build out one of the new Tripath 500W evaluation boards which are supposed to be designed for the upcoming digital-direct controller board Tripath announced they were intending on releasing later this year. The circuitry has been minimalized and "corrected" by Stan Warren. One thing I have decided is that a digital-direct type connection with the amp is the only type of amplifier I will be using in the future. And yes, tweaked even abit, the Panasonic is a real winner.
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Latest I heard, he is using the B&O ICE modules that Acoustic Reality and Jeff Rowloand use in their amplifiers. From what I gather, there are no direct-digital inputs into these modules yet.
Speaker choice should be an obvious mention here and is with many other amp comparisons. Granted, some people will always prefer a certain sound and amp/speaker combination to another, digital or not. I am sure you are confident with your assesment but how were the tests conducted? What speakers, cables and length of time was used for listening? How was everything positioned? Was everything left plugged in? What size/type of room and music? Sorry, I have just witnessed too many "shootouts" that have listeners not even hearing the music but listening for this bell or that bell. Many of us "audiophiles" don't even really listen well. Your conclusion is pretty vague and seems influenced by a reported lower measurement at 2.2khz. (My Naim gear may not have the extension of alot of gear but what is does as a whole, for music, no other system I have heard can do).I wonder if most variable digital outs from a DVD or cd player into separate digital amps would sound as good as the integrated Panny controlling the volume from most similar digital sources requested. Most DVD or cd players would not even give you that option with a digital amp. All the Panny needs is a digital output. Something to consider.
It should speak volumes that this $300 multi-channel amp has the balls to be compared to high end gear and also that it has much more versatility than any of the above mention amps. Great Home Theater is just a freebee!
I haven't cared to try my Panny with my Neat Mystiques vs my Naim Nait 5/CD5/FC2. I don't think I need something better than that system for musicality, nor do I think the Panny would better it for my listening preference. That's me. Someday I may try it.
The botom line is this: Is the SA-XR45S a giant killer? Considering you can buy it for $300 and it also offers superb multi channel sound, there is no argument (lets keep it in perspective about what is actually a giant to the Panny). Does it sound better tonaly than some of the integrateds and separates under 3K? Yep, without a doubt based on what I have owned, maybe higher, I don't know. Just imagine what the next generation Panny or similar designed unit could do! Now wait til XXX builder puts it all in a 1/2" inch thick case, puts the """" name on ot and sells it for 3K! Then we'll believe it, right?
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Synergies are a bitch, you're obviously aware of it because you own what is reported to be one of the alltime great synergies, in your Neat Mystiques + Naim Nait 5/CD5/FC2. I too have a Nait 5 and CD 5 at home I may keep them just to try a pair of Neats.Given that one of my favorite features of the panny is synergy risk elimination (ie a DAC, pre, power in one box, eliminating many interconnects and separate power cords and tweaks) it greatly saddens me that transports make a difference (they're only supposed to spit numbers), digital cables make a difference (they are only supposed to transport numbers), and power cables make a difference (which I didn't really believe until recently), and potentially power conditioning, and speaker cables. Just dandy. Luckily I'm having great luck with a cheap coax cable (Monster, $60 cdn) and quite cheap fatass monster cable speaker wire (strange stuff, looks fat but has hollow plastic tube in the middle - says "Monster Cable High Resolution Precision Standard Time Correct with Magnetic Flux tubes and LPE Dielectric" on it - whew!), and a monster cable optical - as you can see I was shopping at my local mass electronics store.
With all these synergies, no wonder we can never win as audiophiles - I never could do the Rubik's cube either, but at least it was free to try!
I've found much better luck with the coax digital input so far than the optical digital, and found my cheaper monster cable optical better than a newer audiophile brand (but only on a very short comparison - I got audiophilia nervosa and switched back after 5 hours; the panny always sound pretty bad just after powerdown though, so I could be wrong and didn't want to wait to find out). That annoyed me enough that I said screw it for now, and just listen to digital cable via coax - having too much fun listening to new music hours per day to care.
At least the panasonic eliminates the most costly synergy issues, DAC/Pre/Power all in one (well, and tuner but haven't tried it yet), but sadly it's easy to spend well, well over $5k on the rest of it. I hope we can come up with a consensus on the best budget combo for newbies to break into this hobby with, and then maybe a "reasonable" ultimate combo. I really wish more companies would put out reasonably priced, dedicated TRANSPORTS - it annoys me to have to buy all the DAC circuitry when I just need a bit-spitter. I guess the good thing is that once you buy all those accessories, if you buy a newer all digital integrated from Bel Canto, Solar, Spectron, PS Audio, etc in the future - you can just slide it into your existing configuration and hope one digital to another is reasonably compatible. (I would be interested to hear if your CD5 works if you try it - maybe some of it's PRAT is in the transport mechanism?!)
One thing I will say though from direct experience so far, the more full range a speaker you use with the Pansonic the better - I tried a pair of Epos ELS-3 in my large-ish room and it practically sheared my head off with white glaze. No fault to the Epos, my speakers are 13' apart and I sit 17' away. The woofers in the speakers I am using are bigger than the entire Epos and it's box - and better yet they keep the massive bass frequencies out of it's dedicated 5" midrange driver. Your ROOM has the largest signature of any component on your system, I move often enough to know that the same stereo in a different room is a different stereo. Similarly with the panasonic, your speaker's bass control and articulation can make a big difference, keeping the bass in it's place and in control allows all else to shine through, and jive with PRAT the likes of Naim. Again though, your room plays the biggest role there. In reality, PRAT is in the music, not the equipment - Naim just lets it through (although some have accused them of slight manipuations).
Probably nothing everyone doesn't know already, but worth remembering - if you're using a bookshelf, it's probably fine in an appropriately sized room, but it needs to be capable of at least LS35/A bass type deception, otherwise your ears will be a ringin', because none of the rest of the spectrum is caramel coated. I've said it before and I'll say it again - I'd love to hear the panasonic on a pair of Spendor SP100's (dedicated midrange driver, bigass woofer to keep the bass out of the mid driver's way, british-style politeness) - I may trade my way up to a pair when I get home some weeks or months from now, but in terms of full range performance and clear aritculate bass control, my Quad 989's will surely be up to the task - don't know about my room though. With the speed/holograhpics of the panasonic though, if I could get away without massive planars, believe me I would.
In the end the best way to eliminate synergy issues is to strive for neutrality every step of the way (like we all don't know that right), but still it doesn't always seem that's the goal. If god handed down the perfect amp - straight wire with gain - as many would hate it as love it.
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Yes, my "conclusions" apply only to the XR45 I had. It gave similar results in two different systems so the results apply to only these two particular systems & setups. Speakers were not moved between tests, speaker cables were the same for all amps, etc. Two other listeners gave similar conclusions. Listening was conducted over a 3 day period with 2 seperate sessions per day. Music ranged over female & male vocals, jazz, pop, etc.We listened both on a macro "musical" level and on micro "details" levels. The micro level pointed out where the Panny was strong (bass, mids - clarity & articulation) and where it was weak (tonality & timbre of certain instruments). The so-called "artifical" air and ambiance that we heard more of with the other amplifiers can be argued about day and night about being accurate but let's just agree that is a personal choice issue pertaining to our particular systems and tastes.
Our conclusions were reached before I read about the lower measurement at 2.2Khz (in fact the XR45 had left the house before that) so that had no influence on my analysis.
I am not sure where your are going with the digital volume control statement. Are you hypothesizing that the XR45 has a superior digital volume control? Maybe someone more knowledgable with the internals of the XR45 can let us know where in the circuit the volume control is implemented.
The XR-45's MC HT capability is of little use to me right now as I have no plans of moving in this direction. It is also of limited use for MC SACD and DVD-A as the analog MC inputs on the XR45 are reported to be inferior to its direct digital input. There are also reports that the XR45 runs out of steam running a 5 channel full-range speaker setup, but that could be wrong.
Getting back to the air/ambiance/bloom issue, it is interesting to note that in the Stereotimes review of the TACT 2150 amplifier (same technology as the XR45), the reviewer found ultimate musicality with tubes inserted in the audio chain. Solar HiFi is also going to offer a tube input stage to their digital amplifier to take it to another level. Again, all dictated by personal taste.
What really confounds be is that you will not try the XR45 in your Naim system. Can you please expand further? Do you think the XR45 is a better amp?
Again, I must repeat, the XR45 is a darn good integrated amplifier that I could certainly live with and would choose if I had less than a $1000 to spend or wanted to setup a MC HT system that I occasionaly used for 2-channel listening.
More than anything, the XR45 is an exciting sign of things to come. I wonder if Panasonic will introduce something new at CES?
Let's try this again, my initial response never posted for some reason J North. Hopefully my first response doesn't also show up later.Thanks for providing the details on the listening sessions. It sounds like your assesment was very well conceived.
My point on the digital volume issue was that the Panny does it for you. No need for a unit with a variable digital output which is another cost savings. I use mine with a $130 Panny DVD player, it sounds great but I'm sure it could sound better. I just like to reap all the benefits of the cost savings. No tweaks, nothing marketed as high end or special in this system for me except maybe the Daline speakers which are decent but not over achievers.
I'm not sure why you would be confounded about me not trying it against my Naim system. I didn't buy it to replace it nor do I think it could. I have never been happier with the system synergy of the Naim/Neat combo. To me, it is my holy grail after many years of trial. I don't want to replace it. It's kinda like my wife in that regard. No more comparisons. I am very happy with her also! (no I don't need another system in that regard either :-). I bought the Panny as a cost effective way to get decent sound in our family room where my wife could use it without me hovering over her and I don't worry about the kids either. I like it for ocassional movies and for TV, it does a great job in that respect also. I haven't driven all channels hard but power is not an issue for me. I can enjoy my music on it, that is what matters. It does all the things other high end gear I have owned does and has some of the musicality I like about the Naim gear. Namely clarity and focus.
Yes, you are right. We should all be excited that this is where things are headed. The next item in line should have huge expectations behind it. This Panasonic unit doesn't have to be the "beat all" miracle item but your $300 goes a heck of a lot further than I thought it ever could.
I can just be happy with that.
Great points RMckoy..In my system .. hell it sounds tonally better than 8000.00 in other front end gear!
Took it over to a friends home yesterday. He has owned Krell,Mac 275,Musical Fidelity,and many many other peices of gear including well over 50 pairs of speakers! I wish the people on this forum could have seen the look on his face when I fired up the little Panny.All the time before I hooked it up..he was saying it can't be that good! Well after 2 hours of listening ..He said I am going to buy one tomorrow not before trying to buy mine first since it has some burn in time on it.
Moral of the story ...always keep an open mind !
Lacking air and ambience?
I got to scratch my head on that one. Must be system synergy.
I got air and ambience for days around here.This things got more air than the Music Reference RM9 MKII tubed amp I used to run. If it's not in the cd your not going to get it with this reciever.It's seems to give you what's there and nothing more. I guess this is what I like about it. It doesn't sound artificial.But I understand some like the artificial sound.
Well, sometimes with all the hype and frenzy that surrounds new discoveries, especially with something so cheap, I get nervous about proclaiming it's virtues so much. The vision I fear most is the picture of someone running out and buying one of these puppies, and hating it. Surely it will happen, it's easy to make a good amp sound bad, but near impossible to make a bad one sound good.So, for an A&A (air and ambiance) reality check, especially with regards to if it's on the source as you point out, I spent the last 3 hours on the smooth jazz station generously provided by my local cable company, SPDIF coax output right to the panasonic - via a rather cheap and long Monster cable coax.
Even after 8 weeks listening (and the last 3 days with the PS Audio Xstream statement - said to be already cooked by my dealer), I shake my head with virtually every new song - taking time out and listening specifically for "air and ambiance", I can't figure that one either. I mean, my speakers are 13' apart and 17' away, and the image projected by so many smooth jazz songs is easily cast about 6' outside each speaker, and with the addition of the Xstream a couple inches from my nose and a couple feet behind the speakers (which are sitting on the 1' high brick footing of a massive fireplace, their backs a few inches from a massive brick wall - thus they project outward it seems). Each speaker is on a tripod of tiptoes, as is the pansonic.
So, with all respect to Julian Hirsch (who loved measurements), a 13' + 2*6' stage width (25' total) and about 20' deep ain't bad. The fact that it's all tied together with a sense of air is amazing - it's not just the odd sound effect, it's a whole. Coherence in spades, but again the coherence was ever so magnified by the Xtream, as I also commented on in the Cable asylum. Pop songs with effects that used to seem like ping-pong effects now seem to move across the whole soundspace more gracefully. To my mind, coherence is a result of a LOT of things going right all at the same time. With many smooth jazz recordings, the topmost percussion is what dances before my nose - yet it can be easily "seen through" to all that's going on behind it. Holographics that scare the hell out of me (since it's unfamiliar music) are quite regular - drum whacks and the like. As for ambiance, whenever echo is used in smooth jazz or popular music, you can literally hear each reverberation in it's smooth decay - and you can often hear it while all else is going on - fast amp. Still though, in that regard, it ain't no tube amp - but I'm not sure which is more accurate. It's possible the massive brick wall behind my speakers is adding some slam too.
As I pointed out in the cable asylum - with the sweeping strokes that are so commonly heard across the soundspace in smooth jazz are incredible, you can almost feel the wind blowdrying your hair. I will say though that with the XR25 the highs I suspect are a little more "white-ish" than with a good tube amp, and from what I'm surmizing, the XR45 might improve in just that area. I listened with the treble set to -1 (digital domain tone controls!) more often than not until about 7 weeks in, and now with the Xstream almost never. Sometimes loud blatty horns are offensive, but if someone was really playing a horn 17' away pointed straight at me, I figure there would be some discomfort at times.
To add to this, I believe in stereophile there was some controversy about inclusion of the HCA-2 as a class A component, as some complained if IT'S highs - so go figure. But the folks at stereophile are used to all the best equipment, rooms, and have plenty of opportunity to produce synergies, so if there's anything amiss surely they'd find it. I think we'll learn more as more people try various speaker combos, my results are all with monster cable coax and speaker wire, and 25 year old speakers I bought at 16 - although they do seem very efficient, have a dedicated bigass woofer, midrange 5" driver, 1" tweet, and 1" horn-type-thing. They're not even mirror imaged for god sake! Maybe accurate speakers will be less forgiving, a definite consideration.
What I think may be missing in the panasonic compared the PS Audio is image height - the XR25 it has some, but my memory of the best tube amps the highs were more "see-through", less white, and had far greater height and sparke. In the source? Don't know. Similarly, the lowest regions of bass could seem to come from 10' beneath the floor - not so in my current setup, nor is it like the case of my Quad ESL 57's, bass could sound more like someone's car subwoofer a block away (although, that was with my beloved Fisher 7591 tubed receiver). Not so in my current setup, but maybe my quads will be different (one would hope). Major room considerations there, of course.
My Vancouver dealer carries PS Audio, maybe someday he'll let me check it out - the PS may well be better in this regard, and pristine highs are one of the hallmarks of great amps, and quite often the major complaint of Stereophile/TAS - so clearly it ain't an easy thing to pull off.
All I can say is this is all very exciting, and the future looks pretty damn good - I wish I could be bothered to go out and purchase an XR45, but I just can't seem to get off my ass, and refuse to go through another 8 week breakin - although, others seem to think that's all in my head. Oh well!
What you say about it being on the source is a prime consideration - in smooth jazz, believe me, it's on the source! And if anyone else's mileage varies, don't give up to soon and assume it's a tin piece of crap - the only thing you can't change is your room, so experiment. The sound is in there!
Anyway, more than enough has been said, espeically by me, so I'll be shutting up for a while - and if the panasonic works as well as I think it will with my quads, maybe a long, long while...
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If your dealer is Signature Audio, try to have a listen to the Pathos New Classic and compare it to the Panny.I would like some further input from someone real world on this unit.
You and I live in the same town my friend (when I ever get there). You're welcome to come by my home any time if I ever get back, hear my little panny on my bigass quads. I think with my experience in the house I'm in now though, the first think I'll do when I get back is move (in which case much equipment I have could be re-evaluated).Ken at signature is a great guy - honest as the day is long I think.
And yes, the Pathos is on my watchlist - for my Quad 57's, but hell I'll try it on the 989's too. Wouldn't dare put the panny on the 57's - one or the other would be destroyed - and despite my love for the panny, I don't know how it would do there.
I'm really trying NOT to be a perennial equipment chaser, and feel I'm closing in on my last setup going down the digital path - I may be making a purchase from Ken when I get back, and the PS Audio is higher on my list, thanks for that! I also feel that I've got the digital "feel" from the panny (however inferior), and components that work with digital (Xstream), I can just slide a new system in.
Damn though, I wish PS would put out an all digital integrated - I loooove eliminating boxes...
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Thanks longtimequadowner for your great post! I feel the same way about the XR25 not planning to hunt the XR45. And until I hear something better that doesn't cost $7000.00 the Panny will always have a place in this home. I think I will change my status to music lover because being an audiophile is hard work and causes one to be knit pickey. You spend more time worrying about whats going on in the music than enjoying it. I think it's time for me to enjoy and let these other guys run this endless road of no return!
"I believe in stereophile there was some controversy about inclusion of the HCA-2 as a class A component, as some complained if IT'S highs - so go figure"FWIW, that was the criticism of the Bel Canto eVo200.2 amp (well founded, IMO, from my own listening) and NOT ever mentioned as fault of the HCA-2.
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Ah, the Madisound board, the same people who measured a 10 db dip in the VMPS RM 1, yeah right ?
And now some tweako with toroid transformers on Seas woofers tells us the Panasonic is "3 db down at 2.2hz" ?
We dont need that kind of "Psuedo Science" , thank you.
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The guy at the Madisound board admitted his mistake. He has yet to post his new impressions with the toroidal transformers removed but I have no doubt that they will be favorable. I am waiting for my XR45 to arrive, many thanks to you and that gentelman from Madisound, not to mention longtimequadowner. All of your input has been invaluable.Regards,
I'm not disagreeing, and am not surprised - but 2 weeks is nowhere near enough burnin for the panasonic, that I can say from direct experience. I'm on 8 weeks now - however 6 weeks of 24/7 play was a major turning point. Others who've had it longer say up to 3 months.Again, I'm not disagree-ing or surprised - but the panasonic does get a LOT better after 6 weeks, and I listened through that time with no other tweaks or changes to the system whatsoever, not even a speaker movement. At 8 weeks I inserted the Xstream statement power cord, so I'll have to wait a couple more weeks to get acclimatized.
Sure do with PS Audio would put out an all digital integrated though - but according to Paul himself (in the Power forum), it's on hold for now...
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Jes' funnin':)
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1,000 hours? (6 weeks)
2,000 hours? (3 months)That has to be a new record with audio gear.
Used to be 50 to 300 hours was plenty.I'll have another listen to the XR45 sometime when the snow thaws I guess. Report to follow.
I have an amp that I bought in 1993 - I wont tell you the name. But it is still breaking in. I dont want to tell you how it sounds because it wouldn't be fair.
Do I get partial points for guessing NAD even if not the correct model number????Just kidding, try not to take it seriously. Your posts are abundantly clear - so I based my guess on that, and a model number circa 1993 - could be wrong on the production dates though...
NAD is a fabulous brand, and the 3020 a clear classic by all acounts - but an open mind is priceless.
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I'm only relating my direct experience, with a component I've had in my home for 8 weeks now - but aging takes a long time, longer than hours or even hundreds of hours (after all only 10 days is 240 hours already - Paul on the PS Audio power forum says even his Xtream Statements take 2 weeks minimum, just for power wire transmission!).I listen to the panasonic anywhere from 3 to 5 hours per day, and since I'm listening to an all digital cablefeed, I am hearing largely new music that I have no preconceptions about. Still, you hear the songs in heaviest rotation at least once daily, enough to appreciate the differences over time.
I'm not suggesting the Panasonic will then overtake stereophile rated class A components, but in my personal experience (and I posted them on this page at those times/dates) there was an easily perceptible change in overall dimensionality, focus, and musicality - easily in some of the areas you mentioned it was weaker aka "air and ambiance". I'm not doubting your conclusions for a minute, and am not questioning them since I have no direct experience with the other equipment you mention.
I know many feel breakin is a joke and cop-out, but if you ever listen to a new component from day one with no other tweaks, component changes, speaker movements, interconnect changes, etc - it's really not that hard to hear. Not daily, but weekly for sure. How many people on this page go for 6 whole months without changing a single thing? Sometimes I wonder...
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**down 3db at 2.2Khz **
I think that was a result of the guy on the Madisound board running an unusual setup. He put a transformer between the amp and woofer to boost the woofer's output nearer to that of the Raven ribbon tweeter he used so he wouldn't have to pad the Raven down so much. That approach apparently worked fine with his Pass but needs to be adjusted for use with the Panny if I'm reading his comments correctly. 2.2 kHz is his crossover point, I think.
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