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WTF ? ...

24.89.169.194
Posted on February 13, 2015 at 12:40:15
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 WTF = Which Turntable Friday

Premise: There are two very different turntables pictured below and you may pick one, for free. Please tell us why you made the selection you did. Inquiring minds want to know. If you want to “pass”, there is no need to tell us, we’ll realize by your absence that you have deemed both of these gifts unacceptable and have higher standards than the rest of us.

The first table is the Sony TTS-2250, a direct drive table with an arm said to have been sourced from Grace. Please note the dustcover, a hotly debated feature this week, which is apparently seen as either a necessary accessory or a complete and total waste of perfectly good plastic which will make your records sound worse.

The second table is the Nakamichi Dragon CT, which has a sensor arm that measures how far off-center the record is and then the entire drive assembly moves accordingly to compensate. This is a direct drive turntable with a Jelco sourced tonearm. Please note the lack of a dustcover. Perhaps you can fashion your own, maybe of Lucite, or flannel, depending on your décor, or which you think would sound better.

Here are pictures of your choices...

Sony TTS-2250



Nakamichi Dragon CT



I’ll take the Sony because I like old stuff and am a simple kind of guy. The Sony looks simple... and it has a wood plinth. I like wood. I’m also a big fan of dustcovers and not too fond of products that use seemingly overcomplicated means to overcome a not so serious problem, or at least a problem that has not been much of an issue for me.

Which table do you pick and to make it even more fun for the rest of us, why?

Have a great weekend everyone.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
Nakamichi., posted on February 13, 2015 at 12:58:18
mark111
Audiophile

Posts: 4699
Joined: April 12, 2002
 I remember seeing them in the audio rags years ago. I thought they looked pretty cool.They made a cassette player that would flip the cassette over rather than a traditional auto reverse.
It would be a nostalgia piece ,at least. I could always screw a couple of hinges on it.
enjoy,
mark

 

Hands down....the Nak., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:09:19
volunteer
Audiophile

Posts: 5666
Location: Louisville, KY
Joined: January 7, 2012
 Always wanted one.


-Wendell

 

Somehow, I don't think this will be close..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:10:55
teenage diplomat
Audiophile

Posts: 896
Location: burke, va usa
Joined: February 3, 2001
 The Nak. A classic piece of TT high tech. No brainer.

 

Sony for me NT, posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:19:26
tesla
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: San Diego County, California
Joined: October 25, 2000
 NT
Proudly serving content-free posts since 1984.

 

I think you will be right ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:20:29
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Back in the day I worked in a shop that sold the Nak. We sold a few to guys who had to have it. But anyone who took the time to compare it to one of the bigger Denons (DP-59L, 62L, 72L) or Yamahas (PX-3, PX-2) wound up spending a lot less on something they thought sounded better.

But, for free, they probably would have taken the Dragon.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:36:14
bassrome
Industry Professional

Posts: 54
Location: New Jersey
Joined: January 8, 2012
 The Nak corrected for off-center LPs!

 

Nakamichi..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:42:13
slapshot
Audiophile

Posts: 2248
Joined: January 9, 2006
 I had a Nakamichi Dragon tape deck many years ago; a thing of beauty it was. And Dragon turntable is in a class of it's own too, I think.

 

Yes it did (see video) ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:44:15
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 See link

Dean.






reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: THE NAK... IN A HEART BEAT, posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:45:20
Time_Stands_Still
Audiophile

Posts: 936
Location: British Columbia
Joined: March 26, 2003
 One of the most technological turntables made. The Nak is my pick.

 

Can I borrow a coin to flip?, posted on February 13, 2015 at 13:50:20
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6601
Location: SW Mich
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Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 I remember the Sony being an "A" rated table by JGH in the early '70s, long before advertising was accepted in Stereophile. Anytime I ever heard a top rated component Gordon liked I was never disappointed. So while I never heard one for me that is a + for the Sony.

As for the Nak, a friend got a Dragon a few years ago. He may have a better sense of pitch than I do and that adjustability was an important feature for him. He did demo it for me once but that particular record was too subtle for me to hear the centering improvement.

So, simply to say I have it I'd choose the Nak. If it was to be my daily player I'd take the Sony simply because of difficulties if anything failed on the very complex Dragon.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

RE: NAK, posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:06:19
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 Although the Sony is a wonderful TT, I always wanted the NAK because of its ability to correct for out of round records. The shop I worked for was a NAK dealer and we had one of these. I don't recall if we ever sold one.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

Nak, posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:23:33
Inmate51
 ...mostly because I already have a Sony PS-2251 (the 2250's nicer brother) with a Fidelity Research arm.

I'd take the Nakamichi for that reason, plus it looks tres cool. Too bad about no dust cover, though - they're real handy.

:)

 

The Nak Dragon because it's one of those TT I lusted after when all, posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:27:23
BillyBenBilly
Audiophile

Posts: 1425
Location: New Mexico
Joined: July 31, 2003
 I could afford was a used Pioneer PL-12D. Besides, I heard that there's a guy in New Jersey that modifies them to breathe fire!

 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:35:38
risabet
Audiophile

Posts: 3197
Location: SoCal
Joined: January 10, 2005
 The Nak is really cool but it was a better idea in theory than in practice, but I'll take the Nak anyway just based on the coolness factor.


Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.

Adam Smith

 

Is this a serious question?, posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:39:59
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 the Nakamichi for sure,it is a technological marvel even today.I want one. but not willing to pay 5K for it, for that price i rather buy a Kenny L07-D, but for free, no contest hands down, plus it looks so cool next to my B&O 8000 :)


dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

I'll buck the tide: Sony for me, posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:44:23
blues4ever
Audiophile

Posts: 1004
Location: New Mexico
Joined: May 28, 2003
Contributor
  Since: June 22, 2010
 Nakamichi has a tremendous reputation and they do things well. However, the automatic compensation for off-center records may not (or it may) work all that well.

However, the Sony turntable offers several things I like a lot.

A removable headshell is a big plus for me. I have several cartridges that I swap out between the turntables I use in the casa. All I have to do is adjust the verticle tracking force.

A dustcover is mandatory where I live (southern New Mexico, fifty miles north of the Mexican border). Dirt gets into EVERYTHING down here in the desert. You may have heard a joke about a fish's a$$hole being water-tight, but it's not dust-tight down here, even when the fish is in the water.

It really looks good.

I'll take the Sony TTS-2250. Pack one up for me Dean; I'll be waiting.
For perfect tone use Columbia Needles
For Best results use Victor Needles
For best results use OKEH Needles

 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 14:52:54
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14371
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I have a Sony PS2000, which is the earlier, belt drive version that came with a Sony arm and cartridge. I suspect the build quality is similar. I like it a lot but it is nowhere near the lustability of the Nak. I choose the Nak.

Dave

 

Look at he video Dean posted..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:03:38
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 it does come with a lid
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Just for the record, posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:18:04
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001

pun intended,,,,,lid is available

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

The Sony for me; and for basically the same reasons as yours. )MT(, posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:27:54
J. S. Bach
Audiophile

Posts: 9575
Location: Chester, SC
Joined: November 28, 2001
Contributor
  Since: June 29, 2004

Later Gator,
Dave
Find more about Weather in Chester, SC

 

Right you are ...., posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:32:40
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...as my hair gets thinner my memory apparently fades as well.

Kind of embarrassing, since I worked in a place that had one on display and we sold a few.

Thanks for the correction.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Doing some research this afternoon ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:40:17
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...I found a few threads that said the main feature of the table, the ability to adjust for off-center records, was the first thing to go. Parts are apparently unavailable and they are no longer repairable. But, for the purposes of WTF we always assume everything is working fine.

The weak link of the Nak is the arm, which was a low-end Jelco. The table is worthy of a better arm.



Note in the video I posted the arm is an SME V. I bet it sounds quite a bit better with that arm.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

The Nakamichi because..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 15:55:29
cactuscowboy@bresnan.net
Audiophile

Posts: 7738
Location: Powell, Wyoming
Joined: July 23, 2007
 I'm doing a lot of vinyl & shellac transfer to digital. I deal with enough off-center records that the Nakamichi's centering ability makes it look very attractive.

 

Nice., posted on February 13, 2015 at 16:15:20
mark111
Audiophile

Posts: 4699
Joined: April 12, 2002
 That will save me some imaginary work.
enjoy,
mark

 

I don't know that I get these WTF posts, posted on February 13, 2015 at 16:34:18
TGR
Audiophile

Posts: 3002
Location: No. California
Joined: March 22, 2004
 Most of us have never heard, and are likely to never hear, most of the turntables. Without listening, how can anyone possibly know which one they would chose between the two?

I do like the pictures, though, and I am getting an education on what turntables have been manufactured over the years.

 

I guess one could figure out how to mod it to do 78, posted on February 13, 2015 at 16:44:22
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 after all it is just a matter of getting the PLL to lock onto it.

dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

That's the fun of it ...., posted on February 13, 2015 at 16:50:44
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Throw caution to the wind, throw a dart, close your eyes and pick one.

WTF is a chance for us to take things a bit less seriously and just have some fun.

Its kind of like "Whose Line is it Anyway"; the show where everything's made up and the points don't matter.

Dean.








reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Dragon, posted on February 13, 2015 at 17:28:00
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 Classic in every sense (technology, implementation, design). Elegant too, even though I like the look of the Sony.

Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

It's free, what else do you want! nt, posted on February 13, 2015 at 17:49:58
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .


 

I must be outta my mind but ... Sony :) nt, posted on February 13, 2015 at 17:51:14
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .


 

Not even a competition- the NAK., posted on February 13, 2015 at 17:59:23
valvesonly
Audiophile

Posts: 755
Location: Ontario
Joined: May 27, 2005
 just easily the better table

you must listen to the tape decks..
.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

 

I'm a big fan of their decks ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 19:35:50
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13131
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ... and have owned a few of their best (ZX7, ZX9).

I use a 480 in my office system, which gets far more use than my vinyl rig.

Big Nak fan here. Its a shame they couldn't survive.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

It's called fun! nt, posted on February 13, 2015 at 20:22:53
risabet
Audiophile

Posts: 3197
Location: SoCal
Joined: January 10, 2005
 nt



Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition.

Adam Smith

 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 13, 2015 at 21:28:44
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 As lovely as the Sony is I'd take the Nakimichi. I would then try to figure out how to get it to spin at 78.26 RPM. Old 78s very often suffer from the issue which the NAK solves.

Phil

 

RE: WTF ? ...The Dragon, posted on February 13, 2015 at 23:37:19
zutroye
Audiophile

Posts: 221
Joined: June 15, 2012
 Very unique. It's easy to find a nice TT with a wood plinth. The Dragon is crazy.


"Lost my shape - trying to act casual."

 

My PS-2250..., posted on February 14, 2015 at 03:53:30
Munkie_NL
Audiophile

Posts: 4859
Location: Netherlands
Joined: August 24, 2003

It's in the attic now, replaced by my TD-125 mk2/3009 S2 i paid real money for. But the Sony is no less, although a bit different. And the Sony was a thrift store special!

Realiable DD, very well built, good arm, standard Jap headshell. It doesn't suffer from the feared DD harshness although its presentation is a tad cooler than the mentioned Thorens. It plays dead quiet with good timing and lots of detail.

It ain't going nowhere and when it's going, not for the price i bought it for!

"The torture never stops"

Greetings Freek.

 

Nakamichi, posted on February 14, 2015 at 06:26:59
Kirk57
Audiophile

Posts: 606
Location: Chicago's North Shore
Joined: December 9, 2008
 Because I'm really curious if all that fancy pants technology in the Dragon addresses a problem that's serious enough to bother with. IIRC one reviewer did say it definitely was.

In the looks department, it would be the Sony, though.

 

No contest for me - Nakamichi, posted on February 14, 2015 at 06:40:02
Gary
Audiophile

Posts: 1294
Location: New York, NY
Joined: April 21, 2000
 I have some records that would benefit from the auto-centering feature. McCoy Tyner's "The Real McCoy" for one.

 

RE: My PS-2250..., posted on February 14, 2015 at 07:50:28
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 "t ain't going nowhere and when it's going, not for the price i bought it for! " weah but was "a thrift store special!"

hmmm... com'on $150 and you still make a fortune! LOL

Nice looking arm!


 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 14, 2015 at 07:57:05
middleground
 Tough choice.

The Nak is real nice but, indeed, gimmicky and constitutes an implicit admission that pressing vinyl records is a crap shoot. A vinylist no no if ever there was one.

The Sony is more straightforward, so please pack up the Sony in an imaginary box for me and send it along by imaginary carrier, but not UPS.

Thanks!

 

Just let you know, posted on February 14, 2015 at 08:19:17
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 I looked at the service manual, and making it go 78 is harder than i thought. The Nak uses a Toshiba TC9142P motor controller chip specifically designed only to do 33 and 45 rpm. no opportunity to get in there and muck with the divider. One would have to either bypass that chip for 78 or muck with the inputs and outputs for making it think it is spinning either 33 or 45.


dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: That's the fun of it ...., posted on February 14, 2015 at 09:21:39
Mick Wolfe
Audiophile

Posts: 3364
Location: AZ
Joined: October 10, 1999
Contributor
  Since: September 4, 2000
 Fun and informative for sure...but it does remind me that I'm getting a bit long in the tooth. I've actually seen most of these guys in person at one time or another.

 

RE: Just let you know, posted on February 14, 2015 at 09:58:26
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Hi Penguin,

I'm afraid the chance of Reelsmith actually gifting me with one of these machines is remote, but if he did I would ratio the frequency of the crystal and order one and build a 78 clock and the necessary switching.

I could even live with having the record centering happen at 33 then switch to 78 if necessary.

Phil




 

RE: WTF ? ..., posted on February 14, 2015 at 11:38:47
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 10911
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 That's not even one of the best of the Sony 4-number DD's. Nak for me, please. I'll pick it up from Penguin.

 

Nak, posted on February 14, 2015 at 14:49:26
user510
 Apart from the complication of its record centering feature, I've a hunch that the most important part of the turntable, the quality of its drive, will be very good.

My rationale for leaning this way is that 'logic' suggests that the project goal wasn't just to produce a complicated turntable. Rather Nakamichi might have had in mind a very good turntable that had finally mastered one of the uncontrolled variables in Lp pressings.

I suspect this might be a very good sounding TT.

A quick web search for this model, the Dragon CT, turns up a previous record centering model, the TX-1000. See vintage knob link below that covers both the CT and TX-1000.

Interesting. Thanks for the free Nak!

-Steve


 

RE: relax and just go with it...., posted on February 14, 2015 at 15:04:56
user510
 "Most of us have never heard, and are likely to never hear, most of the turntables. Without listening, how can anyone possibly know which one they would chose between the two?"
---------------------
-------------------
Learning something, or everything, about most of the turntables that have appeared in these WTF threads is as easy as putting the turntable name and model in the google search window and pressing go (enter). Nothing difficult. Just read.

-------------------------
"I do like the pictures, though, and I am getting an education on what turntables have been manufactured over the years."
------------------------------
The side benefit to all of this whimsey is that we do gain awareness of turntables we might never have heard about otherwise.

It is a game that gently teaches all who choose to play.

-Steve

 

Uh, my mistake!, posted on February 14, 2015 at 15:55:39
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6601
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 I was reading Dragon and thinking TX-1000. Thanks Steve for the reminder there were two models.

So that does it. The Dragon was not their "top" model so I will take the Sony. Audiophiles can be fickle. ;^)

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

Since this is an imaginary game, posted on February 14, 2015 at 17:50:17
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 lets imagine it is doable fairly easily. But in reality you are pointing out a lost marketing opportunity on Nakamichi's end. Had they targeted this table at the 78 collectors, they might have sold a lot more of them.

dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

Cool i keep the better of the two :), posted on February 14, 2015 at 18:10:16
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 if you do not mind...


dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

At least one or two more. )MT(, posted on February 14, 2015 at 19:51:44
J. S. Bach
Audiophile

Posts: 9575
Location: Chester, SC
Joined: November 28, 2001
Contributor
  Since: June 29, 2004

Later Gator,
Dave
Find more about Weather in Chester, SC

 

Whatever Steve said, posted on February 14, 2015 at 20:11:09
Penguin
Audiophile

Posts: 7116
Location: Delaware
Joined: August 5, 2001
 some of it is an eye opener.


dee
;-D

True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.

quote by Kurt Vonnegut

 

RE: Since this is an imaginary game, posted on February 14, 2015 at 20:32:37
coffee-phil
Audiophile

Posts: 1444
Location: Shingle Springs CA
Joined: January 7, 2010
 Wow! I didn't know there were a significant number of 78 collectors back then. I think that was about the time I was hacking my Kenwood KD 500 to play 78s (early 80s). I figured I'd be thought of as a weirdo if word got out.

Phil

 

My PS-2250..., posted on February 15, 2015 at 03:53:50
Solidcore
Audiophile

Posts: 374
Joined: April 19, 2001
 I`ll take the NAk `cause I already own a Sony PS-2250.
The 2250 is a great TT

Rgds Jan

 

RE: My PS-2250..., posted on February 15, 2015 at 08:04:11
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Hey I picked it, you don't have to convince me. ;)



 

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