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I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-

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Posted on April 2, 2012 at 17:06:14
AbeCollins
Audiophile

Posts: 46280
Location: USA
Joined: June 22, 2001
Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 In my effort to "downsize" my vinyl setup I sold the Aesthetix Rhea ($4500 MSRP) AND the Rogue Ares ($2000 MSRP) vacuum tube phono preamps, both outstanding. I also sold the Clearaudio turntable a while ago. I'm keeping the KAB Technics SL1200mk2 as my primary TT along with a couple nice cartridges including the Dyna 17D3 "Karat, Benz Glider SL with SoundSmith retip, Dyna 20XH, and Denon DL103R.

I just received my "downsized" Musical Surroundings Nova Phonomena which is a solid-state phono preamp with lots of MM/MC flexibility for setting gain and loading via DIP switches behind the chassis. It's also battery powered with a trick charging circuit that allows you to use it while the batteries are charging or on batteries alone for about 3 hours of playtime. But this isn't what got me excited.

Let me explain. Even though the Nova Phonomena can handle MC cartridges directly, and it does a fine job, I decided to set it to 40dB for MM cartridges but coupled it to my MC cartridge via the Bob's Devices Step-Up-Transformer. The Bob's Devices CineMag 3440A Step-Up-Transformer brings more bandwidth and dynamics to the setup. It's more "lively" overall with tighter bass and more sparkle up top with cymbals.

Am I surprised? Not totally surprised. I've tried this little experiment before. I had the Graham Slee Era Gold V MM phono preamp AND the matching Graham Slee Elevator EXP "head amp". It too was a nice setup but remove the "head amp" and put the Bob's Devices SUT in it's place and wow! Same result. I also owned the Hagerman Cornet II Silver Edition MM tube phono preamp quite a while ago. I tried it with the Graham Slee "head amp" and again with the Bob's Devices SUT. No contest! The SUT wins again. And this isn't even one of Bob's "higher-end" models that he now sells. This is his entry SUT based on the CineMag 3440A transformers.

By the way, the CineMag 3440A are the same transformers that Rogue uses in the Ares phono preamp and it sounds wonderful. But there's more! I had the pleasure of hearing the Rogue in MM mode but with Bob's higher-end SUT using the CineMag 1131 "Blue Version" transformers. See link below. These sound more transparent and with a little more midrange and lower midrange robustness.... but they're not cheap, and they're not mine. I listened to them at a friend's house on the Rogue Ares. We compared the Rogue's internal CineMag 3440A to the Bob Devices CineMag 1131 "Blue Version" and the 1131 was clearly better sounding, as they should be for their nearly $1200 price.

I tried a similar SUT test when I had the EAR 834P. The internal Step-Up-Transformers in the EAR were no match for the far superior CineMag 3440A based SUT from Bob's Devices. Although not common knowledge, many folks have said that the biggest weakness in the EAR 834 phono are it's step up transformers. I didn't believe it 'til I heard the difference for myself.

So the take away from this is, if you have a good MM phono preamp (or even one that handles MC cartrides), you might want to couple it to a good SUT, like the CineMag based units from Bob's Devices. This might surprise you.

So, I'm really enjoying my "downsized" vinyl setup. Funds from the sale of my phono preamps mentioned above will go into modernizing and updating my Mac Mini based music server.

My Bob's Devices CineMag 3440A SUT:


The new setup with SUT behind the TT:


Close-Up of SUT hiding behind the TT:


The Nova Phonomena phono preamp:




 

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RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 2, 2012 at 17:14:27
adaug
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: chicago
Joined: December 4, 2007
 thanks for taking the time to share your impressions. very interesting.

can anyone explain the difference b/w a SUT and a phono preamp? i thought that a SUT was non-powered, but the switches lead me to think that Bob's Dev. SUT may be powered.


-andre d

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 2, 2012 at 17:20:15
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46280
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 The Step-Up-Transformers are "passive" in that they require no power. The switches are there to select which turns-ratio you want to use on the transformers. The setting depends on the MC cartridge you choose to use and how much "stepping up" it's output signal requires. The other switch is the Ground Lift which can come in handy to reduce any hum.

The Step-Up-Transformers are used to take the very weak fractional millivolt signal typical of most Moving Coil (MC) cartridges and bringing them up to a level sufficient for phono preamps that only handle the higher output Moving Magnet (MM) cartridges. Many of the MM phono preamps have a gain in the 40dB range while MC cartridges require about 60dB or so +/-.



 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 2, 2012 at 17:35:56
gkargreen
Audiophile

Posts: 1562
Location: DC
Joined: February 5, 2005
 of course, you can buy the Cinemags for around $150 for the pair and make your own SUT, did that for my DL-103, don't know what made the bigger difference, the SUT or the 103 (or both) but the sound is simply amazing, getting to the point of superior vinyl playback sound quality...

 

Feedback on the level, posted on April 2, 2012 at 17:41:01
valvesonly
Audiophile

Posts: 755
Location: Ontario
Joined: May 27, 2005
 of change in sound quality.

Avoiding the 1200 good/bad every body chimes in with, it would be interesting to get your perception on how well the system handles the music with a lower level TT and phono compared to your recent past i.e. 50%, 80%., 90%.

The Karat is no slouch but many on this forum say the benefits of a MC are lost down at this turntable level, whether rigid or suspended, with a fairly basic arm. I am not a full believer in that theory but have not yet forked out real heavy $ for table and arm so am not eligible to voice a viewpoint.
.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 2, 2012 at 18:20:46
Audioquest4life
Audiophile

Posts: 1842
Joined: March 6, 2004
 What is up with all of this downsizing talk? Next thing you know, the 135 will end up with normal 4 banger, ha. I sold the Z06 back in Germany and picked up a C6 red vette. I did schlep all of my 6,000 LP's with me. If you ever decide to get rid of any LP's and plan on coming to the DC Metro area, let me know.

Ciao,

Audioquest4life

 

RE: It's all about loading, posted on April 2, 2012 at 18:56:13
amioutaline?
 I think you'll find there's a load that will duplicate the sound with the SUT, without. The Nova is supremely flexible. It's also neutral to the point of boring, which is why mine is gone.

That and the evil, huge red eye, it's creepy.

 

Why didn't you keep Era Gold V ... fantastic stage! nt, posted on April 2, 2012 at 19:53:26
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .


 

RE: Feedback on the level, posted on April 2, 2012 at 19:56:00
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 What! Ya don't even allow the possibility be might say the new stuff is better? (let me find an entertaining 1200 post)




 

Was experimenting with phono preamps, posted on April 2, 2012 at 20:02:40
AbeCollins
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 I tried a variety of phono preamps over the years and I agree, the Era Gold V is one of the best solid-state MM units I have heard. I haven't ventured into the realm of high-priced solid-state phono preamps like some of the Whest models.

 

Probably 95% or so if there is such a rating, posted on April 2, 2012 at 20:05:31
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since: February 2, 2002
 Let me just say that the "new" setup isn't better than the old one but it's probably about 95% or so. In other words, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. It is very enjoyable and a fraction of the cost.

 

$150 Including the case, RCA plugs, and switches!, posted on April 2, 2012 at 20:45:37
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 That was all it took when I built mine (Two pairs, ~$300)two or three years ago! As for the "Ground Lift" thingy and loading switches config, well, it is straight forward for those who know what they are doing.

Abe

 

And there's another proud owner of a Aesthetix Rhea (and for a very decent price asked). All good. nt, posted on April 2, 2012 at 21:30:42
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 .


 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 2, 2012 at 21:32:15
bjh
Audiophile

Posts: 18614
Location: Ontario
Joined: November 22, 2003
 Does your SL1200 have upgraded wire - just curious.


 

RE: $150 Including the case, RCA plugs, and switches!, posted on April 2, 2012 at 21:42:17
gkargreen
Audiophile

Posts: 1562
Location: DC
Joined: February 5, 2005
 that sounds about right, I believe I paid somewhere around $134 for the trannies, love the sound!

 

What box did you get? NT, posted on April 2, 2012 at 22:10:34
violinist3
Audiophile

Posts: 2922
Location: San Diego California
Joined: August 7, 2003
 nt

 

I FEEL YOU Mr. Collins!, posted on April 3, 2012 at 00:09:19
amandarae
Audiophile

Posts: 2591
Location: So.Cal
Joined: November 30, 2004
 I used to have Pass Xono, Hagerman Trumpet, EAR 834,Koetsu Rosewood Sugano and Shelter 901 carts plus S&B, Tribute and K&K SUT's. The only thing left from the bunch is the Tribute(as I have not heard anything better at 1:10 config). Now, I am happy with Denon wood bodies(retipped), Cornet 2, and Wright WPP 100C, and a DIY RCA phono stage using battery bias 6SL7 feeding a 76 linestage! Plus the Cinemags, Altec, and the Tribute SUT's of course.

Much simplier/cheaper set up but I am much happier!

Abe

 

Got one........, posted on April 3, 2012 at 01:29:16
vacuumtube1954
Audiophile

Posts: 245
Location: GA
Joined: December 24, 2009
 ...a long time back, very satisifed.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 3, 2012 at 06:41:16
AbeCollins
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 Well, I have two SL1200's. One is the KAB modified version with tonearm rewire, fluid damper, and strobe disabler. The other one is 100% stock and barely used. It's stored away.

 

Same here. I bought mine used a few years ago......, posted on April 3, 2012 at 06:48:27
AbeCollins
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Posts: 46280
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  Since: February 2, 2002
 ....and even when I wasn't using it, I decided to hang on to it. I'm glad I did. It's a simple device that returns pretty nice sonics rewards. The only downside (for me anyway) is that I don't like dealing with another set of interconnects. In the current setup, I can hide most of the added clutter behind the TT.

 

Excellent point, posted on April 3, 2012 at 07:17:45
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
Joined: February 25, 2007
 As far as DIY projects go, the CineMags are one of the easiest.

Search the archives for a wealth of "how to" information.

And, of course, it would be disrespectful not to mention the generous wisdom behind the CineMag step-up idea. Thank you Garth. RIP.

 

RE: What box did you get? NT, posted on April 3, 2012 at 08:02:06
gkargreen
Audiophile

Posts: 1562
Location: DC
Joined: February 5, 2005
 my box is just an old aluminum box I picked up at a hamfest, just hot-glued the trannies in and mounted 4 rcas on it, pretty ugly but works great, no hum, did not cut the leads. I am trying to finish up Sy's "His Master's Noise" preamp, and these two trannies are going to be used in that preamp, which should be quite superior to the current arrangement (Cinemags feeding a Yaqin MS-12B). That being said the current setup sounds really good, playing a DGG lp I could really hear how the instruments were multi-miked, they were blobs of sound on the soundstage as opposed to a coherent field, like I get playing my rca WD of the Sibelius violin concerto, and other lps of better recorded music (Bags and Trane, wow what a recording!)

 

And he was a major proponent of the DL-103 as well. /nt\, posted on April 3, 2012 at 09:39:26
Opus 104

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 3, 2012 at 10:45:25
Bones13
Audiophile

Posts: 296
Location: L.A. (Lower Alabama)
Joined: July 4, 2009
 There are a pair of Cinemags in my phono pre - the Eddie Current Phono Amp, which is one of the reasons I went with this phono pre.

I am sure you can find a precision, hand-wound silver wire transformer unit, but these Cinemags seem to fit the sweet spot in the performance/price consideration.

I think Bob's Devices have always been well reviewed and considered. That he hand makes them, and obviously knows what he is doing, makes for great gear and a great "Brand".

Abe - congrats on a sweet vinyl setup, very well thought out.

 

Yes, he was, posted on April 3, 2012 at 11:40:16
1973shovel
Audiophile

Posts: 10117
Location: Greenville SC
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 CineMag and DL-103, the award winning chocolate and peanut butter desert recipe Garth shared so generously.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 3, 2012 at 12:04:28
Jack D II
Audiophile

Posts: 1535
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Do I understand correctly that Bob's sut is used with the Nova Phenomena (which I use set at 60 db gain and 380 ohms-10x dc resistance which I was told was the correct setting-with a Dynavector 17D3 Karat? All downstream from a Nottingham 294 'table and arm. I would be more comfortable if the Nova wasnt used at it's maximum gain level. I take it that the gain level is set with a sut (you're using 40 db on the Nova). You can tell that I am utterly ignorant re: electrical matters.
I dont understand why people are unhappy with the neutrality of the Nova. I want the phono pre amp absolutely neutral and adjust the sound elsewhere. So far as I can tell, the "sound" of the Nova without using the batteries is very nearly the same as using it with them.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on April 3, 2012 at 14:51:00
Mr_bill2
Audiophile

Posts: 2178
Joined: September 17, 2002
 Nice job Abe. I could not agree more.

 

RE: Was experimenting with phono preamps, posted on April 3, 2012 at 16:00:07
Jsawyer09
Audiophile

Posts: 554
Location: Midwest
Joined: January 2, 2008
 Just a great setup Abe. Nicely done.

While I don't have the Era Gold V, I do have the Graham Slee Reflex M, and it is my favorite SS phono to date. I have it paired with the very same Bob's Devices SUT on a Well Tempered Amadeus turntable and Dynavector XX-2 MKII cart, and it's the most enjoyable combination/experience I've ever encountered in many iterations of vinyl setups. I am VERY confident that nothing will change in my vinyl rig, period, for years to come.

The Cinemag is the real deal. I'm so glad I purchased one from him before the pretty significant price hike. However, even at the new price, I still would've paid it without hesitation. Congrats!

 

I can only describe what I hear with & without...., posted on April 3, 2012 at 16:54:30
AbeCollins
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Contributor
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 Jack -

I've had my Nova Phonomena for only a couple days now. It is a fairly neutral sounding solid-state phono preamp. It anything, I find it to be a little lean especially in the mids but I'm coming off some pretty nice tube phono preamps that I no longer own.

Just for grins, and because I already own a CineMag SUT, I tried the Nova Phonomena set to it's lowest gain of 40dB and the loading set to 50k (for MM cartridges). I then coupled my Benz Glider SL to the Nova Phonomena through the Bob's Devices SUT. It gave a more robust and dynamic sound, not as 'polite' but more lively. I can't explain it. I just like it a bit better with the SUT.

I also have the Dynavector 17D3 but I haven't tried it on this setup yet. However, I have had similar experiences with the Dyna and other MC cartridges going through the SUT and into a MM phono preamp. The combo is very nice. I can't explain it.... something about transformers I guess vs the additional gain in an active gain stage in the phono preamp.



 

Sut what settings for Nova, posted on February 4, 2013 at 19:48:08
route30


 
I have the Nova Phenomena, and Bobs SUT, but have not hooked up the SUT yet. I am not well versed in the audiophile stuff, so please excuse if this is a dumb question. Garth at Musical Surroundings said to flip ALL settings to the bottom, when using the SUT. I have a new Clearaudio Talisman V2 Gold.
Is this what others have done? Please give me your advise

 

RE: Sut what settings for Nova, posted on February 5, 2013 at 07:15:18
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Abe,

Thanks for sharing.The images are fun to see.I too have a KAB Technics 1200.I never heard one bone stock,but can say that I love the way the KAB Technics plays music.I am in the process of mounting a DL-S1 to my KAB with Ken Willis protractor.I should have it ready to try Wed. evening if I can find some time then.Steve Brown built me a SUT that I expect to be pretty special.I will let you know.Cheers,
Dave

 

RE: Sut what settings for Nova, posted on February 14, 2013 at 11:44:04
route30


 
I tried the Nova with Bobs SUT and my Talismann V2 Gold. I didn't get any of the improvements I was hoping for. It didn't sound better, just a bit harsh, not listening pleasure? Any advise?

 

RE: Sut what settings for Nova, posted on February 14, 2013 at 11:59:18
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 I have been using my new DL-S1 with the new SUT that Steve Brown built.The combination sounds super nice and airy,great low end extension and punch,wonderful clear detail top to bottom.The SUT that Steve built uses the new Cinemag transformers that are a step above the 344A's.He could explain it better than I can.His web site is phuseaudio.com

 

RE: Sut what settings for Nova, posted on February 14, 2013 at 13:23:21
analog bob


 
Your cartridge has an output of .7mV and 30 ohms internal impedance. It needs a step up ratio of around 1:10. The CineMag 3440A in LOW gain mode has a step up ratio of 1:16. You have a mis-match.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on February 15, 2013 at 02:42:40
EagleRocker
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: So Cal
Joined: January 21, 2009
 I tried the Bob's 3440a into my Jasmine Audio phono preamp with both a DL-103 and an Audio Technica At33PTG. I found it in both cases to be inferior to the Jasmine's MC input. The SUT gave the sound a punchiness and an energy and I can see how some would like it, but I found it wearying.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on February 15, 2013 at 16:44:54
photok
Audiophile

Posts: 17
Location: Midwest
Joined: May 23, 2010
 Interesting, I've been curious about the cenimag step up for a while. I tried and still have a Jasmine and found it to be wearing as a whole in my system. It was broken in by the previous owner so it wasn't that. It lasted about 3-4 sides before the wife and I couldn't take it anymore and switched back the Botlehead Seduction. Perhaps I just prefer tubes.

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on February 15, 2013 at 19:54:44
wirewizard
Manufacturer

Posts: 836
Location: N.E. Ohio
Joined: July 3, 2009
 I have the exact experience with Bob's 3440a into my Jasmine and the sound was inferior to the MC section of he Jasmine...too harsh and forward sounding .
I do it all in the name of music!!!

 

RE: I Love this Bob's Devices SUT !! -Long-, posted on February 16, 2013 at 04:41:53
obscomp@msn.com
Audiophile

Posts: 305
Location: N.E.Ohio
Joined: July 11, 2005
 I have a Bob's Devices 1131(blue) and it's considerably more punchy and detailed than the internal SUT in my Monbrison.They sound very different but I still haven't decided which one I prefer overall.

 

RE: Yes, he was, posted on March 9, 2013 at 06:26:52
Alanpiga
Audiophile

Posts: 226
Location: New York City
Joined: August 17, 2001
 my cinemag has 1:10 and 1:16 taps. Is this one good for the 103 or 103r?

 

cinemag match for 103 or 103r, posted on March 9, 2013 at 11:30:54
jjrenman


 
The point of the SUT is to convert the high current/low voltage that a M/C cartidge produces into a higher voltage that the phono pre is looking for on it's input.

I have done extensive experiments with various load resistors with my Cinemag 1131 tranny's and found that my Dynavector works best at the reflected load that Dynavector recommends. Denon is recommending the same minimum load for both the 103 and 103r, 100 ohms. Maybe others can chime in on their best results at different loads.

You did not state what you are using for a preamp but if the input impedence is the fairly typical 47k ohms than the 16x will reflect 184 ohms back to the cartridge which IME should work better than the 10x.

BTW it looks like the 103 and 103r are very similar in most regards but the 103r achieves nearly the same output voltage but at a much lower output impedence. IMO the 103r can probably attribute it's better sound to a better, lower impedence coil structure. HTH.

 

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