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Iam using a Pionner SX 1050 receiver ( 70's) as a headphone amp for Sennheiser HD 800.Should i think upgrading for a more recent headphone amp or it is a bad idea considering that the Pioneer is fantastic ?
Iam losing something for not having a dedicated amp like WO AUDIO WA2 or the Sennheiser HDVD 800 instead of the Pioneer SX 1050 ?
i think vintage receivers drive the headphones off the main circuit through some resisters (new receivers may have a separate chip-based amp for headphones).
http://www.classicaudio.com/forsale/pio/SX1050.html
Edits: 03/06/16 03/06/16 03/06/16 03/06/16Follow Ups:
The HD 800s are high impedance. The headphone amp in your pioneer was designed for low impedance phones.
But before you rule out the pioneer, you may want to try driving hte HD800s off one of the sets of speaker terminals. You would have to make an adapter to go from headphone jack to stripped wires that will fit into the push on connections on the rear panel.
It should work well, only question will be are your power supply caps still quiet enough for hdphone listening.
The output power of the Pioneer will drop considerably driving 300 ohms, but should still have enough reserve to give you some dynamic sound.
happy listening.
Sounds fantastic with Naim Headline. Much touted Woo Audio amp sounded soft and turgid on the HD800. I certainly didn't care for it.
What possibly matters more than the amp is a better source for the HD800. You can always upgrade the source and keep the Pioneer.
One solution (among many) is the new HD-800S...
hope they didn't screw up what was good.
HD800 was the only Senns. I liked actually.
"Old SteveA" thinks that the ring radiator used to enhance the "soundstage" feel of that particular headphone is the primary culprit. Remove that ring radiator and the brightness disappears (taking with it a certain amount of that illusionary soundstaging?), according to him.I'm hoping that the new HD-800S represents a better and more comprehensive *fix* than this surgical alternative.
Interesting too is the recent release of Beyerdynamic's new flagship headphone, the T1 V2. The V2 is said to be a warmer, more mellow sounding headphone than the original T1.
So it almost seems like at least two German manufacturers are turning away from the analytical presentation in favor of a warmer and more forgiving one. Will Austrian AKG follow suit and revise their latest "bright sounding" flagship?
Edits: 03/24/16 03/24/16
and found T1 rather dull comparatively.
I suspect that the HD800's latest revisions might be two folds. One: any hardware companies need a *new* model every so often to stimulate the sales, two: they realised bulk of 'phone users typically use a crap source. As I walked around with my amps and cables in tow at the show, HD800 sounded horrendous on digital files on a laptop tethered to an external DAC or low end DVD players.
Only when I've encountered a 10k+ source ( Meridian 800 series DVD/CD player ) I realised how capable the HD800 was. Incidentally this was the Sennheiser USA booth who had a sense to bring a decent source to show case their ware.
IME, nothing was wrong with the original HD800 even with a bog standard kettle leads. ( with my amps )
With the help of the slightly distant sonic perspective provided by the excellent DNA Sonett (now discontinued), the HD-800s sounded smooth and well balanced through the lower treble.The HD-800s are definitely not the most forgiving of headphones and perhaps they are a little too unforgiving in light of the fact that most of us who assemble headphone systems are doing so with certain budget constraints in mind.
Sennheiser could have put a warning sticker on every box that reads "Spend at least as much on amplification and source component(s) as you did on these headphones", but they probably would not sell as many pairs of flagship headphones that way...
Then there is that other insidious problem to consider, and that is that some of us really and truly don't hear the same way that some (or even most) other people do. If one man's treat is another man's poison, what can you say?
Edits: 03/25/16
They REALLY sound bad IMNSHO based on listening tests I've done at shows where Senn was showing their wares.
Woo audio has a good reputation for value and sound quality.
Me?
I'd get a balanced cable for the HD800 and look for a balanced headphone amp.
Which balanced amp ?Auralic taurus MKII ?
Edits: 03/07/16
and the main consideration would be your headphones which are certainly up to the task.
My DAC/Headphone amp accommodates both Single Ended and Balanced with the DAC section fully balanced as well (2 DAC chips per channel).
When I added a Balanced Cable to my 10 year old HD-600 the world changed for me.
For the price of the WOO, or less, some nice SCHIIT pictured above for less than a $1000. I heard the next model up (Ragnarok) with HiFiMan's best $2000 cans at CanJam last year and it was more than OK!
Link below: Available third week of March?
Some useful info:There are several "balanced" headphone amps on the market, but basically there are two types to choose from.
My DNA Sonett, for example is of the first type. It has true, differential balance output by way of a single center tapped output transformer while using a single active amplification stage. The benefits of this type of balanced-drive design include better channel separation (less crosstalk between channels/better isolation of back EMF between channels) for less overall distortion.
The second (and most expensive!) type of balanced amp uses a differential output stage with two separate active devices (one per channel, of course). This type of balanced-drive headphone amp provides all of the sonic benefits of the first type but, in addition (because of the dual active devices), you'll also get a doubling of the slew rate and voltage swing power for faster transients and better dynamics. In other words, the benefits of balanced-drive are fully realized here for a cleaner and more powerful sound with the lowest possible distortion.
Be aware that a true balanced-drive amp does not need to have balanced XLR INPUTS (as well as balanced XLR outputs), as some might claim. MY (early model) DNA Sonett uses single-ended RCA inputs and dual 3-pin XLR outputs, for example.
Perhaps the most famous FULLY balanced headphone amp (called "The Blockhead" now discontinued) was made by balanced headphone pioneer Tyl Hertsens (former owner of Headroom Corp.). Essentially, it was a dual mono headphone amp joined in the middle to make one stereo amp. It had balanced inputs as well as balanced outputs for use in a fully balanced system. This is why it was once more common to see balanced headphone amps made with dual 3-pin XLR output jacks for connection to matching balanced headphone cables - mostly because Headroom's balanced amp designs used dual 3-pin XLR outputs and matching dual 3-pin XLR headphone cables. Nowadays, it is more common to see balanced headphone amps using single 4-pin XLR jacks that do the same job just as effectively while saving on cost, space, and complexity. You almost never see balanced headphone amps with dual 3-pin XLR outs any more as single 4-pin has become the new standard.
Balanced amplification is worth pursuing for that last bit of hifi performance but it must be admitted that there are many fine sounding headphone amps that are NOT balanced-drive designs. A pleasing tonal balance might be more important to you than the best detail resolution and the most ear-popping dynamics, so choose accordingly.
Try to attend a Can-Jam so that you can audition several different types of headphone amps before buying, if at all possible. Follow your ears.
Edits: 03/07/16 03/07/16 03/07/16 03/07/16
Before considering any headphone amp (balanced or otherwise), the OP is asking if any such amp would be better than using the headphone output on his vintage Pioneer amp given that he finds the Pioneer "fantastic".
Is the Pioneer receiver good for the HD 800s or not?
... that very few people here have had the opportunity to listen to the very same Pioneer amp driving HD-800 headphones.
So, IMO, the OP needs to listen to a few modern, dedicated headphone amps so that he might learn for himself. Those of us who have listened to a variety of dedicated headphone amps (balanced or otherwise) have been pleasantly surprised, but it can be hard to convince another person who has not heard the difference on a firsthand basis.
OTOH, there is no accounting for taste. To the OP's ears, the Pioneer may indeed sound as good or better as anything being made today.
Listening is learning.
likely with decent headphone amps built in. My Marantz 2325 had a decent headphone amp as well and I am sure it would have sounded great with a GREAT set of cans like the HD-800.
But compared to anything Woo audio sells that is designed to drive headphones like the HD-800?
My bet is no contest, but I will admit that I have never experienced HD-800 driven by a forty year old Pioneer receiver.
Don't make me go down to the basement and dig out that Marantz 2325 and risk burning down the house by plugging it in for the first time in 30 years just to try it out as a headphone amp. ;-)
i think vintage receivers drive the headphones off the main circuit through some resisters (new receivers may have a separate chip-based amp for headphones).
This probably can make a big diference comparing the old receivers using the powerfull main circuit against the new headphone amps with simpler dedicated chip-based amp (?)
Maybe Ivan could try on his 125watt receiver and tells us about...
"i think vintage receivers drive the headphones off the main circuit through some resisters"And that is where the mating of HD 800s to the Pioneer may come adrift from the ideal.
HD 800s are 300 ohm cans. So they deally need to be plugged into an output with an impedence that is <30ohms ( using the 10:1 rule of thumb). However the resistor network that is used to reduce the amplifier output to suit headphones may mean that the 'phones "see" a comparatively high impedence that is unsuitable from a perfectionist viewpoint.
Headpones were generally not considered as truly high end audio devices at the time of your receiver's manufacture ( certainly nothing of the standard of the HD 800s existed) and using an attenuation network would probably have been considered as adequate for the task ( but no more) by the manufacturer. Hence one reason for the creation of a market for outboard headphone amplifiers in later years when the potential quality of headphone listening improved.
Still, suck it and see.
Edits: 03/11/16
Hi !
very interesting point here
" HD 800s are 300 ohm cans. So they deally need to be plugged into an output with an impedence that is <30ohms ( using the 10:1 rule of thumb). However the resistor network that is used to reduce the amplifier output to suit headphones may mean that the 'phones "see" a comparatively high impedence that is unsuitable from a perfectionist viewpoint "
I have seen from a schematic that the Pioneer sx1050 headphone outs are obtained from the speakers out adding in series a 150 ohm resistor (one per channel).
So maybe the big bass perceived is just an underdamped bass ? bloated ?
Just asking.
Kind regards,
bg
Problem solved !
Sennheiser HDVD 800
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